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So, after reading JSK Grimorium Verum, he outlines the importance of the contract, adorned with the sigils of the spirits one desires to make contract with. On the blue cover grimoires, i have only seen one mention of a contract in the grand grimoire or red dragon (Or spanish San Cipriano) in the conjuration of Lucifugo Rofocale
Thereupon throw him your pact, which must be written with your own hand on a sheet of virgin parchment; it should be worded as follows, and signed with your own blood:
I promise the grand LUCIFUGE to reward him in twenty years' time for all treasures that he may give me. In witness whereof I have signed myself
Then, supposedly, the spirit turns it down, but then you insist and he will ask for something completly different
Althoug romantic, i guess a contract so vague and open would not be advisible to any practitioner. has anyone worked with written contracts? what clauses do you use?
If for example, i would want to have money or find treasures, as is the case in the GG, wouldn't it be better to specify to at least not hurt you and your loved ones?
Verum has been my main grimoire since the 1990's. My 2 cents:
As Verum says on...
THE NATURE OF THE PACTS "There are only two kinds of pact, the tacit and the apparent, otherwise said the implicit and explicit. You will know the one from
the other, if you read this little book. Know, however, that there are many kinds of spirits, some attractive and others not attractive. It is
when you make a pact with a spirit, and have to give the spirit something that belongs to you, that you have to be on your guard."
Rephrasing this a little, there are two kinds of pacts: the formal, and the informal.
The formal pact is for your protection. You can wing it with a modern magic methods and approach Verum informally, but you are then forgoing many of the protections of the formal protocols.
The daimons of the underworld are not evil, but they are tempestuous, liminal beings, with bodies made of the roiling emotional flux of the astral world. They are not stupid, but they beings of great emotion, says my UPG.
You can write it up as a Faustian contract. This is where you get to negotiate. If they want more then you can give, negotiate. But do not try to give them the least you can get away with. Do the best you can. This is a sliding scale. But as JSK and others have said, you do not want to piss them off by thinking you can get away with giving them nothing.
You can also dissolve the contract later , as circumstances change. This is fine, and not an issue.
As Verum also says, " "The spirits who are powerful and exalted, serve only their confidants and intimate friends..."
Always keep your agreements with them, if they deliver on their end. I say this from experience, you do not want to piss them off, even if you are not sure they are listening. Nothing will stop them. Not your ritual dagger, LBRPs, prayers, Odin, The Morrigan, wards, salt, the Chaospshere, or whatever if you seriously piss them off. But they are also not looking for trouble, so I take issue with people who want to call the loathsome demons from hell, or mindless lavae. They are not what in Vodou we would call 'diabs', diablos in Spanish.
Verum has been my main grimoire since the 1990's. My 2 cents:
As Verum says on...
THE NATURE OF THE PACTS "There are only two kinds of pact, the tacit and the apparent, otherwise said the implicit and explicit. You will know the one from
the other, if you read this little book. Know, however, that there are many kinds of spirits, some attractive and others not attractive. It is
when you make a pact with a spirit, and have to give the spirit something that belongs to you, that you have to be on your guard."
Rephrasing this a little, there are two kinds of pacts: the formal, and the informal.
The formal pact is for your protection. You can wing it with a modern magic methods and approach Verum informally, but you are then forgoing many of the protections of the formal protocols.
The daimons of the underworld are not evil, but they are tempestuous, liminal beings, with bodies made of the roiling emotional flux of the astral world. They are not stupid, but they beings of great emotion, says my UPG.
You can write it up as a Faustian contract. This is where you get to negotiate. If they want more then you can give, negotiate. But do not try to give them the least you can get away with. Do the best you can. This is a sliding scale. But as JSK and others have said, you do not want to piss them off by thinking you can get away with giving them nothing.
You can also dissolve the contract later , as circumstances change. This is fine, and not an issue.
As Verum also says, " "The spirits who are powerful and exalted, serve only their confidants and intimate friends..."
Always keep your agreements with them, if they deliver on their end. I say this from experience, you do not want to piss them off, even if you are not sure they are listening. Nothing will stop them. Not your ritual dagger, LBRPs, prayers, Odin, The Morrigan, wards, salt, the Chaospshere, or whatever if you seriously piss them off. But they are also not looking for trouble, so I take issue with people who want to call the loathsome demons from hell, or mindless lavae. They are not what in Vodou we would call 'diabs', diablos in Spanish.
But what would be a good payment then? I heard the story of a guy who made contract with Paymon, offering weekly blood sacrifices, and when he stopped he developed a bleeding gastric ulcer (which some people took as Paymon taking his payment directly from him).
In my experience, and that of JSK, the daimons are not particularly blood thirsty. They can manifest in seriously Hollywood special effects ways, and shock the fuck out of you, but the trad rituals are pretty routine .
People keep thinking the rituals need to be more because of Hollywood, and Dark Fluff con artists selling UPG for bucks on the internet.
OK, this is tricky. Pardon the twilight language here. "His" manifestation of Paimon may want blood, but that's on him. That guy, for the lack of a better word, manifested a Paimon that is that way becasue that is the only way she can enter into his personal universe, with the rules he set up. He is the resident god of his personal quantum sub-universe.
I was just telling someone the other day: In Kimbanda, they say there is a third spirit that forms from the interaction of the devotee and the spirit called, and this spirit partakes of both of them both. They say this third spirit is what you are interacting with. This aligns with the Neoplatonic idea the daimons mediate between The One (as God, or the gods, take your pick) and humans. You are half the equation. The Mystery, by whatever name, is the other half. 'Your' daimon will be half you. I feel the process of magic is that by which we are called to be bigger, and allow them more range of movement in the world, while we learn also about ourselves, in the mystery of incarnation.
In term of practical effects, I have never offered them blood and they have never asked for it. I recommend to take a clue from Vodou (as JSK did btw) and offer them upfront, when you first approach them, some honey dissoved in spring water. This is to get a "cooler" manifestation. After you have established diplomatic relations and are on good terms with them - you are friends - you can occasionaly "heat them up" with alcohol, gunpowder, to get them working.
Yes, I know this may sound completely absurd to the people who work within a psychological magic model, but Goetia is an animist, externalized practice, but don't give the spirits too many sweets, or it makes them "fat and lazy" as we say. You can overfeed them.
Oh, that guy. Blood is a "hot" substance and will attract the worst of the spirit world, the legit diabs. You are taking an underworld journey and not everything there is nice. Take another purification bath afterwards. Not against the daimons, but whatever your ritual attacted while there, especially if you used anger, or blood.
Post automatically merged:
Oh, they don't want much and give back far far more than they ask. It depends . Often just flame, frankincense and attention / praise. Developing a liturgy to praise them helps here. Read JSK for this. Start classics: candles, barley beer, eggs, oil, honey, milk, barley flour. Then later "your' daimosn will prbbly ask for something culturally closer to you. Mine like coffee and cigars, rum and whiskey.
Your paying attetnion to them also matter.sI also feel they like having things to do in our sub-uninverse, so askign them to do things is not "work" for them, it's fun, where they get to express their nature in space-time
Although i’m reacious to share it, because i understand a lot of people would think i’m very childish in my petitions, i nonetheless share it just to get constructive criticism and feedback.
it’s a little harsh maybe, but i am adapting it from the goetia of dr rudd:
─────────────────────────────
✦ PACTVM BETWEEN THE EXORCIST AND ASTAROTH ✦
─────────────────────────────
In the Name of the Most High, by whom all things exist and whose Name is sealed within the Circle, I, , an exorcist consecrated under the signs of the Art, do hereby establish this PACTVM with the noble and mighty spirit ASTAROTH, also known as ASTARTE, Queen of the Southern Stars, Lady of Wisdom and Desire, She of dual power, of the Dove and of the Serpent.
I call upon Her, I invoke Her and conjure Her according to the rites of the Art, with holy Seals and Names, that She may come forth and hear the terms of this covenant, which are herein declared:
──────────────
I. OBLIGATIONS OF ASTAROTH
──────────────
That ASTAROTH shall grant unto me faithfully, clearly, without deception, obscurity, or distortion, the exact number which shall be drawn as the winner of the next BALOTO REVANCHA lottery draw, such that I may play this number and win the full prize, without error, hindrance, or obstacle, whether legal, natural, or spiritual.
That ASTAROTH shall bestow upon me power, command, and authority over the spirits SUCHAY (known also as SITRI) and SATANACHIA, that they shall act as loyal and obedient FAMILIARS, that they shall come swiftly when summoned, and that they shall fulfill my will without resistance or guile.
That ASTAROTH shall attend future summonings at my will, without the necessity of repeating the full rite, and that She shall come forth visibly, clearly, and accessibly by the mere pronunciation of Her Name within a properly consecrated Circle, delaying not Her arrival nor concealing Herself.
That ASTAROTH shall do no harm, directly or indirectly, to myself, my loved ones, family, friends, animals, possessions, property, or any material or spiritual belongings, and that She shall not permit Her legions to do so either.
──────────────
II. OBLIGATIONS OF THE EXORCIST
──────────────
And I, on my part, if these conditions are fulfilled and the prize is granted in accordance with this pact, do solemnly bind myself to:
Fashion the SEAL of ASTAROTH in accordance with tradition, in pure gold, consecrated under the Names of the Art, and offer it in recognition and eternal testimony of Her aid.
And once I have secured a place of residence with the money from the prize, I shall erect a STATUE of ASTAROTH, placed in an honorable and dignified location, before which offerings and devotions shall be made as required by the Spirit, as testimony of our bond and perpetual tribute.
──────────────
III. CLAUSES OF PROTECTION AND PENALTY
──────────────
If ASTAROTH should fail in any of these conditions, act with deceit, falsehood, harm, or unjustified delay, or should She refuse to fulfill this pact in truth and spirit, I, [NAME OF THE EXORCIST], reserve the right to:
Engrave Her seal upon a leaden plate and cast it into fire and brimstone as witness of Her breach.
Invoke Her again by compulsion and torment, in the Name of the Most High, as did Solomon and Moses before me, that She be brought forth and made to submit to my will.
If She shall persist in refusal, I shall proceed to destroy Her seal and condemn Her to the eternal and unrelenting fire, by the power and authority of the Ineffable Names, that She may be bound until the Last Day of Judgment.
──────────────
IV. FINAL CLAUSE
──────────────
This pact is formulated with clarity, without coercion, in firm will and under the signs of the Art. Its breach shall be judged according to the Law of Spirits and punished as herein declared.
In the presence of the Holy Names: AGLA ✦ ON ✦ TETRAGRAMMATON ✦ IAO
Well, sort of. The Red Dragon author was familiar with the Verum. They have many similarities. In the "Solomon vs Lucifuge" episode recorded there, the kinds of changes made are significant but not completely different goals. They become less convenient for the magician and much more useful to the spirit, particularly about letting anyone afterwards access the same pact. The times becomes those in which you are likely to be occupied elsewhere, and the terms become more strict with bigger consequences for failure.
Before filing anyrhing with the demonic court clerk, just do any actual business where you sign a stack of papers and reflect on the amount of crap they include for all sorts of obscure reasons. You do all that over something like getting a used vehicle, so consider whether your contract is sufficient to guard your spiritual interests.
Seems to cover all the bases for a one-off pact. You have expectations for them and what you are offering.
OK, to the task at hand, if going Faustian, here's an outline of a pact from 'Pact with the Devil'. (below) It hits all the needed points for an introductory working relationship and can be modified from there, as familiarity - from both sides , human to spirit and vice-verse, as friendships are formed.
The Fastuian grims are very very late and I feel blood is very optional. Signing in blood is taken from Verum, where it is used in making of the First Character with Scirlin, the intermediary of the system, but is not required all the time.
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I—[name] on this [day] of [month] in the year [year] formally ally
myself with the spirit [Name] and his servants for our mutual benefit in
order that I may achieve the following goals:
[Note: the goals are the most
important part of the pact and should be well thought out. The goals can
be highly personal as no one need ever see this document.]
In return for the above benefits I will deliver to the spirits the following
offerings and services: (Note: list all the offerings previously determined
by divination or intuition. Be very specific and do not promise something
you do not intend to give.)
I charge the spirit that by agreeing to this document he binds himself
and makes himself subject to punishment if he should disregard his part of
this agreement or bring harm to me or mine.
[Note: the pact can dissolved upon completion of the agreement or if
the operator is honestly dissatisfied with the demon.]
[Signed in your own blood.]
[On the side opposite your signature, draw the sigil or picture of the
demon.]
[Note: sterile lancets are easily available at most drug stores.]
----------------------------------------------------
Let me add also the entire working relationship formed with a daimon is the full pact. The protocols of Verum, and other grims are the establishing of diplomatic relations. They don't know you and you don't know them, so you creating a diplomatic core in mythic space for initial negotiations and getting to know each other. Then later the relationship changes to become more ongoing friendship between allies, and far more shamanic in nature.
Why make contracts? What did JSK get out of any of his demon-pacting and devil worship? If you're gonna do goetia, why not do the stuff that might have actually worked in ye olden days, instead of following in the footsteps of a failure? Why practice goetia anyway, when you can just go to the angels (Arbatel spirits in particular) for what you need and get it in much the same way?
Why make contracts? What did JSK get out of any of his demon-pacting and devil worship? If you're gonna do goetia, why not do the stuff that might have actually worked in ye olden days, instead of following in the footsteps of a failure? Why practice goetia anyway, when you can just go to the angels (Arbatel spirits in particular) for what you need and get it in much the same way?
what are the things that actually have worked on the old days? Do you know that the first edition of the grimorium verum dates from 1512 and was not created by JSK? And that it’s based on even older documents?
Corundum, I get what you're saying, and I rarely make formal pacts these days. But I will make a written "statement of intent" in the form of a conjure petition paper. And how exactly is that different from a contract, when working in an animist context? Okay, a little less dramatic sure, but it's just good working procedure.
The grim are working in a Christianized form of what originally was a very shamanic understanding : the forming of an alliance between shaman and spirit.
I would not automatically 100% assume they are just adding something that was not there originally. It may be a continuation, albeit in the only mythic framework they had available: Christianity.
And before we think the purely shamanic earlier mythic forms (or lack thereof, often) is always better, the shaman would go into the wilderness to be attacked by the spirits who later became his (or her, I assume) ally. With "list spirits" you are piggy-backing on the rituals of the magicians who came before you
I repeat myself, but the formal protocols are for your protection. You can forgo them, and i often do, but it is more dangerous. SeekerPS is being cautious, but Astaroth is super cool and the most friendly of the three Chiefs.
I get some of this can seem nutty, but the grims involve taking of a deep mythic journey, some of the forms are just part of the process. Your mythic journey will probably look different.
what are the things that actually have worked on the old days? Do you know that the first edition of the grimorium verum dates from 1512 and was not created by JSK? And that it’s based on even older documents?
He was busy giving offerings of chocolate and flowers to the demons, treating them just like the saints in Catholic folk practice. At the end of his life he died in an ignominious manner, and was poor the entirety of his life. The reasons he and his sycophants made fun of Crowley actually happened to him.
The Verum is a complete system unto itself that doesn't need modern commentary. Work from the grimoire and make pacts to generate spells, as given in the examples later in the book, and bind the spirits to labor for you. Kent's approach didn't/doesn't work because it is ahistorical and consists of his own deranged ramblings. I've known quite a few people who followed his approach to this grimoire and all have had health problems (organ failure, specifically), severe mental health problems, and their lives going straight to shit otherwise. Kakomagi by all accounts.
Kent tries to put "le TRVE GRIMOIRE" out as a faithful reproduction of the Grimoirium Verum, and it is nothing of the sort. It is almost entirely his UPG and it is not backed up by any proof. If the spirits are nice and proper to be "served," then why is the circle to be surrounded by 12 swords, with an extra in hand for the operant in Liber Juratus — which he tries to invoke as a source for his approach? There's simply no justification for his version of it and the proof's in the pudding.
Please try to consider literally any other approach to goetia than JSK. You don't need a lion skin belt for the Lemegeton or Abramelin. What's a few months of fasting and prayer to get literally everything taken care of?
Please try to consider literally any other approach to goetia than JSK. You don't need a lion skin belt for the Lemegeton or Abramelin. What's a few months of fasting and prayer to get literally everything taken care of?
He is not my only approach to goetia. i have worked and adapted a lot more from Dr Rudd than from JSK GV. And i don't know how or why goetia would take months of fasting and prayer, nor which grimoire are you referencing that. I don't want to spend months praying and doing fast just for some superior spirit to tell me what i want is not good for me. I'm not asking for their opinion on the matter, that's why i prefere goetic spirits (or demons if you want to call them that) they don't care
Corundum, I get what you're saying, and I rarely make formal pacts these days. But I will make a written "statement of intent" in the form of a conjure petition paper. And how exactly is that different from a contract, when working in an animist context? Okay, a little less dramatic sure, but it's just good working procedure.
The grim are working in a Christianized form of what originally was a very shamanic understanding : the forming of an alliance between shaman and spirit.
I would not automatically 100% assume they are just adding something that was not there originally. It may be a continuation, albeit in the only mythic framework that had available , of Christianity.
And before we think the purely shamanic form is always better, the shaman would go into the wilderness to be attacked by the spirits who later became his (or her, I assume) ally. With "list spirits" you are piggy-backing on the rituals of the magicians who came beofre you
II will say it again, the formal protocols are for your protection. You can forgo them, and i often do, but it is more dangerous.
I get some of this can seem nutty, but the grims involve taking of a deep mythic journey, some of the forms are just part of of the process. Your mythic journey will probably look different.
The shamanistic alliance perspective on the grimoires is again, ahistorical and not what the grimoires were doing. The magician was to conquer the demons and bind them to serve him as a representative of God on earth, being made in the imago Dei. We don't actually know what European shamans did in their interactions with spirits, a lot of that theory is extrapolation from Indigenous American practices, which would have evolved differently than what was done in Europe due to different climate, and vast geographical separation between cultures, which was not such a huge deal in the Old World (for example, Buddhism was known to the Greeks 500 years before Christ). You either conquer them by the name of God and make them swear to exorcism by the sword, or you get to be buddy-buddy with your HGA who then helps you accomplish this process directly in the first instance, and indirectly in the future.
I will not say there is not a time and place for firm measures. The Greco-Egyptian magicans kept a firm hand on their gods.
But historical or not, the shamanistic alliance is what you get when you work Verum.
He is not my only approach to goetia. i have worked and adapted a lot more from Dr Rudd than from JSK GV. And i don't know how or why goetia would take months of fasting and prayer, nor which grimoire are you referencing that. I don't want to spend months praying and doing fast just for some superior spirit to tell me what i want is not good for me. I'm not asking for their opinion on the matter, that's why i prefere goetic spirits (or demons if you want to call them that) they don't care
I was referring to Abramelin. The HGA doesn't tell you just what is good or not for you, that's a very modern bias. That spirit helps you conquer other spirits and arrange your life to accomplish what you desire and get closer to God through it. Angels don't just give opinions.
Again as I said, my main qualm is regarding using any of JSK's material for these workings since it doesn't appear that they did him any good. Conquer the demons, don't be their friends. It's all a lie. Get the twelve swords to make your circle and a silver chalice to drink wine from while exorcising and commanding them (Liber Juratus). Don't give them chocolates, make them your bitch. The magicians who actually did shit, like the guy who imported fire-arms to Europe and revolutionized warfare in the Early Modern era, conquered the demons and made them their slaves — they didn't give chocolates and roses.
From your contract: "I shall erect a STATUE of ASTAROTH, placed in an honorable and dignified location, before which offerings and devotions shall be made"
No similar prescriptions are found in the source documents. Instead, the author suggests torturing the spirit until it relents, and promising further tortures if it fails. The other side of the deal is that you give up "one piece of the treasure" shown by the spirit every month, and failing that means that the spirit will claim you for its own, tojours. I'm not sure whether tojours is intended to mean "this day" as in you die immediately, or if it means "forever," as in the spirit owns you forever. Either way, it's a far cry from worship, service, or honors given to the spirit. It's more like a loan shark.
From your contract: "I shall erect a STATUE of ASTAROTH, placed in an honorable and dignified location, before which offerings and devotions shall be made"
No similar prescriptions are found in the source documents. Instead, the author suggests torturing the spirit until it relents, and promising further tortures if it fails. The other side of the deal is that you give up "one piece of the treasure" shown by the spirit every month, and failing that means that the spirit will claim you for its own, tojours. I'm not sure whether tojours is intended to mean "this day" as in you die immediately, or if it means "forever," as in the spirit owns you forever. Either way, it's a far cry from worship, service, or honors given to the spirit. It's more like a loan shark.
If ASTAROTH should fail in any of these conditions, act with deceit, falsehood, harm, or unjustified delay, or should She refuse to fulfill this pact in truth and spirit, I, [NAME OF THE EXORCIST], reserve the right to:
Engrave Her seal upon a leaden plate and cast it into fire and brimstone as witness of Her breach.
Invoke Her again by compulsion and torment, in the Name of the Most High, as did Solomon and Moses before me, that She be brought forth and made to submit to my will.
And second, making a statue is payment due to a service provided. are you worshipping your employee each month you pay their salary?
Cormindum, from the title, this thread is about Verum, not the Lesser Key. There is no spirt torturing in Verum.
I respect Dr. Skinnner and the more stand-offish and very late-in-the-game Solomonic school of Renaissance Angel magic, but this is the alternate more immersive "witchy" method.
See Johann Weyer's Pseudomonarchia Daemonumm, where the Lesser Key got it's spirit list, the prayer there is directed toward the magician, not the spirit. You are not forcing them. Most of these rituals are for the magician.
Cormindum, from the title, this thread is about Verum, not the Lesser Key. There is no spirt torturing in Verum.
I respect Dr. Skinnner and the more stand-offish and very late-in-the-game Solomonic school of Renaissance Angel magic, but this is the alternate more immersive "witchy" method.
There in the broader tradition. Liber Juratus is Medieval as can be, it's a source text for the Heptameron and all the other magickal systems in the West.
Cormindum, from the title, this thread is about Verum, not the Lesser Key. There is no spirt torturing in Verum.
I respect Dr. Skinnner and the more stand-offish and very late-in-the-game Solomonic school of Renaissance Angel magic, but this is the alternate more immersive "witchy" method.
Even in the key of solomon, offerings are given. Read the description of Paymon, and Belial, in the description of malphas it’s advised not to do it, and there is a complete chapter on the nature of the offerings
