Demons

[Pboat]

How are you perceiving the whole subject?

What are your thoughts on stating that demons are evil?

What are the most accurate lines you've read or heard about demons, their existence and their meaning?

 

[Morell]

(quote, don't know where from...) Who are you? Angel to some, demon to others...

I find whole subject not very interesting. If you watch Christians obsessed with demons in style: "Demons! Demons everywhere!" Well, that's needlessly over the top. Demons can harm, but so can the angels, so can anyone. Basic respect and honor goes a long way when dealing with spirits, no less than with humans.

I personally think that demons are simply normal being as any other in existence, living their lives, doing their jobs, having feelings, etc. There is definitely a lot they can teach a person, even if only to overcome fear of "supposed evil." On that thought, people who fear demons tend to fear other people too, I think.

Comparing to the demons I fear people way more. they do way more harm than demons.


-----
If you put it the other side and ask about angels, I think that you get the opposite problem; people thinking of them as do-gooders, that can do no harm and sometimes almost thinking about them as slaves...

 

[StarOfSitra]

How are you perceiving the whole subject?

What are your thoughts on stating that demons are evil?

What are the most accurate lines you've read or heard about demons, their existence and their meaning?

What is a demon to you? I have a Greek concept of demons — it’s part of my culture. Maybe I can offer an alternative perspective on this in the forum.

Daimōn (δαίμων) comes from the verb daíō / daiómai (δαίω / δαίομαι), meaning “to divide” or “to distribute.”

Therefore, daimōn literally means “the one who distributes fate” or “the intermediary of fortune.”

In classical Greece (Homer, Hesiod, Plato, Pythagoras…), the daimones were intermediate entities between gods and humans — not necessarily good or evil.

Plato, in The Symposium (202e), says:

“Every daimon is an intermediary being between the gods and mortals.”

“The daimones are messengers of the gods; only good men can perceive them without harm.”
— Philostratus, Life of Apollonius, III, 38

One perfect example for me here is Lucifer — not the biblical one, but the Roman or Phosphoros in Greece. He was the Morning Star, the one who announced the coming of light, the herald of Aurora.

It has a powerful meaning, because he represents the bringer of self-illumination to those humans who are prepared to open their consciousness to their own divinity (Apotheosis).

 

[Fr. Maximagus]

I grew up Christian and have since thrown that thinking and programming in the trash bin where it belongs.

Demons are not evil. They are spirits who I believe WANT to work with us and make our desires come true.
no threats or divine names necessar in my opinion.
treat them with the respect you would any person, offer them something they like and humbly request assistance with a problem.

turns out results are much better this way then beginning the whole interaction with a series of threats and putting the spirit under duress.
no wonder the demons didn’t like the magicians & the magicians thought the demons were evil and needed to be bound.

if I summoned you to my living room with a gun pointed at your face and me threatening your life unless you help me…how fast do you think you’d turn on me or screw me over the first chance you get?? Lol
we are all spirits. Keep that in mind all you should be alright.

i don’t fear demons nor do i think they should be feared. fear is the mind killer.

 

[Faria]

if I summoned you to my living room with a gun pointed at your face and me threatening your life unless you help me…how fast do you think you’d turn on me or screw me over the first chance you get??

There are people in this world who are important, but also bad. If you've been watching any news over the past few years, you're probably aware that almost everyone involved in high levels of government and finance have some really nasty hobbies like going to private islands with underage girls. The people who "make the career" for musicians, actors, other celebrities, often make horrible and degrading demands on those people. The bank, to whom you might apply for a mortgage or other financing, will insist that you sign over to them the right to imprison you if you fail in the obligations they demand. The whole world is run by a bunch of Mafia-like organizations.

You are expected to see the police, the government, the church, etc as the Good Guys. Maybe a few of them are? But many are not. They are not only bad as individuals, but them being bad is the main reason almost anything else in the modern world is bad. Their bad decisions, their bad policies, they are the root of human degradation across the planet. Without those people somewhere in the background of your life, you will be relatively poor compared to those who cozy up to the evil masters.

Do you have any issue with identifying those people as bad? If you agree that there are bad people, and bad plans, at the root of almost everything we do... why are you giving a free pass to demons?

If the head of Pfizer or JP Morgan or DeBeers was standing right in front of you, would you be the same level of welcoming and friendly as toward demons?

If you call a plumber or a gutter cleaning service and they fail to show up or ruin your home despite you getting everything together on your end, are you not going to give them a bad review on Yelp?

If you are having someone re-do your plumbing and electricity, would you not insist that they sign a contract that guarantees your ability to penalize them for failure?

My point here is that it does not make sense to pretend that everything is going to be good for you just because you are nice toward it. A lot of smiling friendly people are THE source of everything bad in this world. Part of respecting people (or spirits) in that position is recognizing potential dangers or troubles and doing what you can to mitigate them. Hard-line policies and clear consequences aren't you being mean to good people, it's how you keep bad people from destroying you.

 

[Fr. Maximagus]

There are people in this world who are important, but also bad. If you've been watching any news over the past few years, you're probably aware that almost everyone involved in high levels of government and finance have some really nasty hobbies like going to private islands with underage girls. The people who "make the career" for musicians, actors, other celebrities, often make horrible and degrading demands on those people. The bank, to whom you might apply for a mortgage or other financing, will insist that you sign over to them the right to imprison you if you fail in the obligations they demand. The whole world is run by a bunch of Mafia-like organizations.

You are expected to see the police, the government, the church, etc as the Good Guys. Maybe a few of them are? But many are not. They are not only bad as individuals, but them being bad is the main reason almost anything else in the modern world is bad. Their bad decisions, their bad policies, they are the root of human degradation across the planet. Without those people somewhere in the background of your life, you will be relatively poor compared to those who cozy up to the evil masters.

Do you have any issue with identifying those people as bad? If you agree that there are bad people, and bad plans, at the root of almost everything we do... why are you giving a free pass to demons?

If the head of Pfizer or JP Morgan or DeBeers was standing right in front of you, would you be the same level of welcoming and friendly as toward demons?

If you call a plumber or a gutter cleaning service and they fail to show up or ruin your home despite you getting everything together on your end, are you not going to give them a bad review on Yelp?

If you are having someone re-do your plumbing and electricity, would you not insist that they sign a contract that guarantees your ability to penalize them for failure?

My point here is that it does not make sense to pretend that everything is going to be good for you just because you are nice toward it. A lot of smiling friendly people are THE source of everything bad in this world. Part of respecting people (or spirits) in that position is recognizing potential dangers or troubles and doing what you can to mitigate them. Hard-line policies and clear consequences aren't you being mean to good people, it's how you keep bad people from destroying you.

I would sooner fear any human before I would fear a demon (Spirit). My interactions with them have been much more pleasant than almost any I’ve had with people.
Im not saying you shouldn’t be prepared to defend yourself. Of course that’s important no matter who you’re dealing with.

what I’m saying is that starting off an interaction with a spirit with threats of duress is NOT the way to go.
especially not when you are seeking the spirits help.
you’ll find I’m not the only person out there who takes this approach to demons & has favorable results.
i guess it’s a miracle we havent all been destroyed or possessed by these evil wicked beings (sarcasm)

 

[Faria]

you’ll find I’m not the only person out there who takes this approach to demons & has favorable results.

I hear this often, but have rarely seen it work that way in reality. I have seen a lot of people say this, and say they "get good results," but those results are usually small temporary things or nothing substantial, leaving them more or less the same as before. The majority of people I meet who regularly work with spirits and take this "spirit friendly" approach have this same track record, and very very few are able to stand on their own financially or socially in the real world. Ok, so they're not "destroyed," but a lot of them really have destroyed their chances of living a satisfying comfortable life surrounded by people who care about them by building up their hopes and dreams on these spirits who don't really deliver what they want the spirits to deliver. Contrast to the few people who I have known who dare to stick it to the demons and not give a hoot about doing so, and those people tend to have life-changing magical careers where they end up being a completely different person after a few years and have all sorts of good going on for them. I don't think the friendship of those demons is worth as much as their service, even if they give that service against their will.

 

[Fr. Maximagus]

I hear this often, but have rarely seen it work that way in reality. I have seen a lot of people say this, and say they "get good results," but those results are usually small temporary things or nothing substantial, leaving them more or less the same as before. The majority of people I meet who regularly work with spirits and take this "spirit friendly" approach have this same track record, and very very few are able to stand on their own financially or socially in the real world. Ok, so they're not "destroyed," but a lot of them really have destroyed their chances of living a satisfying comfortable life surrounded by people who care about them by building up their hopes and dreams on these spirits who don't really deliver what they want the spirits to deliver. Contrast to the few people who I have known who dare to stick it to the demons and not give a hoot about doing so, and those people tend to have life-changing magical careers where they end up being a completely different person after a few years and have all sorts of good going on for them. I don't think the friendship of those demons is worth as much as their service, even if they give that service against their will.

Correlation something something causality

Obviously every individual is a universe in their own right and you really should be careful when making broad sweeping generalized conclusions

 

[MorganBlack]

I agree with Faria here. Being a trad Goetic magician has to be part of your Fate. Why you came here.

Check your Saturn placement.

We are Saturnine heavy folks. If that is you, welcome.

I get it's fashionable now, and everyone want to, but if not you are not meant to be one, best to stay away.

Me, I come from a weird family, and got my first grim when I was 8 year old. I've practicing traditional Goetia (meaning not whatever that neo-Theosophical "Satanic" Dark Fluff is ) for over 30 years.

For much of that I only conjured the "demons" to get stuff done. I did not call them for "spirituality" (i.e., mysticism), because I have my own very personal theurgic and Buddhist practice. They were there to get laid, paid, and get even. The meanest of sorcery made me the magician I am today.

Among my many acts of sorcery over the years, I used them to take down a very powerful executive at a huge international company (they had it coming), help friends, and in the process become a rare thing of myth and legend... an actual magician. I think I have met two others my entire life.

OK, demons. Yeah, I agree the Neoplatontic name daimon fits much better, but there are many details that get often missed. What are they are exactly? Well, I have my ideas, but we really don't know.

Jake Stratton- Kent, who made my Verum wands , asked them once what they are, and they said they were the beings that construct reality. Maybe?

Personally, I think they are Neoplatonic-Orphic Wrathful Buddhas who burn the crap off your soul. Let me explain.

Over the years in calling them I noticed I became kinder, more intelligent, more creative, loving, more understanding.

At one point, one bright Los Angeles afternoon, while I was sitting in my downstairs game room reading a book, and they appeared in my living room, and dragged me away. There they healed a couple of illnesses, and I came back changed. I got a couple of siddhis (powers) in the process, which has been weird. I will not talk about them in public becasue they will sound impossible.

I can draw you a map for all this, give it fancy names, , but it will do you no good. If I wrote it down you'd still have to do all the work. Nothing in my own practice will will help you with yours.

You are you, and I am me. We travel this chthonic road alone. Most dont even try and pick of wish fullment fantasy religions telling them are so special.

Maybe, if you are lucky, and it is part of your Fate, they will take you to on the Underworld Initiation. But it's also not required. That is a huge topic.

All silly cult leaders out there will tell you otherwise, and what exactly going on, down to the half centimeter (Buy our book!) They are lying to you. They will try to sell you you silly "Inverse Tree Qabbalistic " map to believe in. Ignore them. They are trying recuit you into their ridiculous New Age cults and religions

Just pick up the Grimorum Verum (my fave grim) and don't try to add too much of your own personal hangups and bullshit to it. Just do it.

If you hate the Chrstian mythic langage, pick up Jake's Greek / Thelemic pagan framework. I've used it, It works great. No New Age "Tunnels of Set" required.

 

[Fr. Maximagus]

I agree with Faria here. Being a trad Goetic magician has to be part of your Fate. Why you came here.

Check your Saturn placement.

We are Saturnine heavy folks. If that is you, welcome.

I get it's fashionable now, and everyone want to, but if not you are not meant to be one, best to stay away.

Me, I come from a weird family, and got my first grim when I was 8 year old. I've practicing traditional Goetia (meaning not whatever that neo-Theosophical "Satanic" Dark Fluff is ) for over 30 years.

For much of that I only conjured the "demons" to get stuff done. I did not call them for "spirituality" (i.e., mysticism), because I have my own very personal theurgic and Buddhist practice. They were there to get laid, paid, and get even. The meanest of sorcery made me the magician I am today.

Among my many acts of sorcery over the years, I used them to take down a very powerful executive at a huge international company (they had it coming), help friends, and in the process become a rare thing of myth and legend... an actual magician. I think I have met two others my entire life.

OK, demons. Yeah, I agree the Neoplatontic name daimon fits much better, but there are many details that get often missed. What are they are exactly? Well, I have my ideas, but we really don't know.

Jake Stratton- Kent, who made my Verum wands , asked them once what they are, and they said they were the beings that construct reality. Maybe?

Personally, I think they are Neoplatonic-Orphic Wrathful Buddhas who burn the crap off your soul. Let me explain.

Over the years in calling them I noticed I became kinder, more intelligent, more creative, loving, more understanding.

At one point, one bright Los Angeles afternoon, while I was sitting in my downstairs game room reading a book, and they appeared in my living room, and dragged me away. There they healed a couple of illnesses, and I came back changed. I got a couple of siddhis (powers) in the process, which has been weird. I will not talk about them in public becasue they will sound impossible.

I can draw you a map for all this, give it fancy names, , but it will do you no good. If I wrote it down you'd still have to do all the work. Nothing in my own practice will will help you with yours.

You are you, and I am me. We travel this chthonic road alone. Most dont even try and pick of wish fullment fantasy religions telling them are so special.

Maybe, if you are lucky, and it is part of your Fate, they will take you to on the Underworld Initiation. But it's also not required. That is a huge topic.

All silly cult leaders out there will tell you otherwise, and what exactly going on, down to the half centimeter (Buy our book!) They are lying to you. They will try to sell you you silly "Inverse Tree Qabbalistic " map to believe in. Ignore them. They are trying recuit you into their ridiculous New Age cults and religions

Just pick up the Grimorum Verum (my fave grim) and don't try to add too much of your own personal hangups and bullshit to it. Just do it.

If you hate the Chrstian mythic langage, pick up Jake's Greek / Thelemic pagan framework. I've used it, It works great. No New Age "Tunnels of Set" required.

I can appreciate where you are coming from with this and your opinion is valid.

However what comes to mind are the OG Magi…Shamans. They were able to communicate with spirits quite naturally and without a whole lot of drama (such as long monologues, vibrating sacred names, binding etc). They didn’t fear the spirits to the point of starting off with overt threats. Seems like something someone in a weak spot would do, or like a small cornered animal trying to make itself sound vicious...Not the command of a king.

I tend to think that we as magicians are nothing special for consorting with spirits despite what many think…because it’s something that man has done from the beginning. Its not the names or the ritual implements or the magick circle or the incense that actually make the spirit come when called….ITS US. We ARE the magick, y’all. Not to say those things have no value, they certainly do for many.

However I would argue they are not entirely necessary for ALL.
Some people have an affinity for spirit contact without the need for these things.
In ancient times, those people would have been called Shamans.

 

[MorganBlack]

Fr. Maximagus, I agree with you.

Sometimes the opposite of a Great Truth is also a Great Truth.

I think the daimons of the grims have been "operationally mythologized" (as I call it) to a great degree.
Take the awesome Four Demon Kings (Oriens, Paymon, Amaymon, and Egin), way way back when they probably started out as the Four Winds, that only "heroes" can call. Now they are something else.

A modern shaman can go into their back yard or local area , call and connect to the wind spirits flowing through the landscape, but they are not the same. These are not the same critters as the Demon Kings, or if so , not for a very, very long time.

The rituals we use are in what I call a "mythstream"and some people do not take to it... at all. But it is what it is.

Aiden Wacher (sp?) , whom I like as a more shamanic practitioner , tired calling them over a week once, and they just made him violently ill. I think this is less the "demons" than the protocols the tradition uses - which, if a one theory of the history is accurate, come to us through very urban and literate minds, Alexandria, Byzantium, then Venice, and the various monasteries, Rome... then jumping ahead to now Houston, Texas, New York, Sau Paulo, Brasil, Port au Prince , Haiti , and so on.

 

[Fr. Maximagus]

I understand where many trad practitioners are coming from and I certainly see the value in it.
The way my mind works though…if I can achieve a similar result with a lot less rigmarole then in my mind it’s just a superior method lol
I realize this is a very chaote-ic line of thinking though I don’t particularly identify as a chaote.

 

[MorganBlack]

Nope nope, I encourage all that!

The full rites of the grims are not meant to be used each time. This is a common misunderstanding.

The grims are Rites of Contact. The GV is mine.

They are used for three things: To get their attention using rites they know, show you're not an complete idiot, and that you are sincere.

They appreciate sincerity, which mean putting aside your personal bullshit and neo-wiccan wish fullfilment fantasies for a little while

Once you have made contact with the daimons they will give you protocols to call them in a more "shamanic' mode.

A personal example. One of my allies is a "demon" from the Grimoruim Verum who appeared in my room looking very Lovecraftian, and amusing the fuck out of me.

Amongst other interactions, he gave me protocols for to call him without breaking out all the GV kit and rigamarole. When I call him using these simple cantrips he creates visions of swirling patterns that take over my eyesight, forming in a "shamanic" tunnel, l in the same designs and colors his head was made of.

This is when you will become a magician - well, at a point that the title is not totally ridiculous - and all you will need to do is wave your hand.

But be careful. Trad sorcery is an externalized practice into consensus reality. As we say in Vodou, "You never know who is listening." You can create havoc in your life and those of others without meaning to. You will learn to mind what you say out loud.

 

[Kepler]

How are you perceiving the whole subject?

What are your thoughts on stating that demons are evil?

What are the most accurate lines you've read or heard about demons, their existence and their meaning?

In my model of reality the universe has different extensions of spacetime for dimensions that all use the same univeral matter energy to create a cross multidimensional reference for meaning, experience and growth. The subjective thoughts we perceive with inner senses have objective reality in another dimension. Its own physical laws,... ecologies...

In regards to this, to put it simply without getting bogged down in details, demons in this model are specifically a type of celestial egregore with a framework formed from routine daily thoughts occurring from organic life in their yearly cycle that was identified, given more metaphorically relevant thought governance, then fell out of alignment astronomically and/or also found better thought alignments. They represent falsehood, with the great demon of these being the transcendent God that has no reality to sustain it beyond being a false idol of fabricated thought. It only deludes its worshippers to sustain itself.

 

[MorganBlack]

Heh. The magician is a Speaker of Lies so beautiful the very powers of Heaven and Hell come to hear our stories.

We really don't have a pithy modern pop-magic consumer market label for the place that venns right at the haunted crossroads of chaos magic, animism, and trad sorcery: Chao-Animist Necromancy, I sometimes call it

 

[Fr. Maximagus]

But be careful. Trad sorcery is an externalized practice into consensus reality. As we say in Vodou, "You never know who is listening." You can create havoc in your life and those of others without meaning to. You will learn to mind what you say out loud.

Not sure what you mean by externalized practice into consensus reality. Nor do I understand the Vodou saying….lol
Could you explain a little bit?

 

[MorganBlack]

I hope this is useful to you in your own practices.

20th century magic is not traditional magic. People took Crowley heroin-fueled twaddle " the spirits are parts of fthe human brain" and turned it into the "Initiated View " which kept English-speaking magic hostage for almost a century.

What I mean by "externalized practice into consensus reality" -ok.

Traditional magic is "in the world" vs. modern magic which is "in your head"
In my more Vajrayana Buddhist view, this is a false dichotomy. The spirits are just as real as you. From the 10,000 Sephira view, meaning not at all, them or you.

Well the Vodou saying is just part of New World sorcery. My hougan taught me. It's is actually just very practical operating procedure from living magical traditions, like those I am part of.

When you have active spirit allies this is your lived experience. Yeah, sorcery. The allure! heh.

Don't assume they can read your mind, divine your intent, or hear what you say say you clearly. Many of these spirits were never human and their hearing is not so good. Misunderstanding do happen.

I know neo-Wiccans want to glue feathers to their arms and prance around as "The Morrigan" or "Odin"or whatever mythological figure they worship recently, but for sorcery, it's a bad idea to mix too much of your personality and fantasies with "magic". Live a normal life. All of this has to be integrated.

If they somehow manage to get powerful allies - it they make it that far - from a trad sorcery perepctive, it has too much blending with their egos, and whatever comes knocking. If they get to that point. Best to minimize that by keeping these seperate from your head and a keep normal very mundane personality to drive around in externlaized consensus reality "out there".

I hope that helps.

 

[Sabbatius]

The term Daimon was used in the earlier documentation of spirits in classical Greek works. Roughly around the 5th Century BCE we start seeing the differentiation between the term Daimon being split into Agathodaimon and Kakodaimon. The ἀγαθοδαίμων Agathodaimon were the good spirits, or noble spirit who assisted with all things beneficial to mankind and the κακοδαίμων Agathodaimon the malevolent spirit who terrorized, possessed, cursed and tricked mankind.

Eventually, Christianity rose throughout the Roman Empire, utilizing the κακοδαίμων Kakodaimon as the overall descriptor for anything not being from the Heavenly realm. Agathodaimon was often termed for Άγγελος, or Angelic Messenger. In the end, the terms for spirits became extinct. Agathodaimon ceased to be referred to Noble spirits and became the Virtues and basic concepts of moral code. Angels took the place of all spirits of noble and virtue. Kakodaimons just became daimons, and not from Heaven which simply became evil.

 

[StarOfSitra]

The term Daimon was used in the earlier documentation of spirits in classical Greek works. Roughly around the 5th Century BCE we start seeing the differentiation between the term Daimon being split into Agathodaimon and Kakodaimon. The ἀγαθοδαίμων Agathodaimon were the good spirits, or noble spirit who assisted with all things beneficial to mankind and the κακοδαίμων Agathodaimon the malevolent spirit who terrorized, possessed, cursed and tricked mankind.

Eventually, Christianity rose throughout the Roman Empire, utilizing the κακοδαίμων Kakodaimon as the overall descriptor for anything not being from the Heavenly realm. Agathodaimon was often termed for Άγγελος, or Angelic Messenger. In the end, the terms for spirits became extinct. Agathodaimon ceased to be referred to Noble spirits and became the Virtues and basic concepts of moral code. Angels took the place of all spirits of noble and virtue. Kakodaimons just became daimons, and not from Heaven which simply became evil.

Interesting observation, since all of them include the word "daimon." It’s very similar to the distinction made in Catholic doctrine, which separates angels from fallen angels (the popular demons), but both kinds are still angels — just as in ancient Greece, they were all daimons.

 

[MorganBlack]

Yep yep!

Sabbatius, let me add in here a rider that the term 'Kakodaimon' does not apply to the daimons of the grims. They are not "demons" as most people think of what that means, but they can be.

I will also add here you can structure the rites in away to get their most highly aggressive and downright homicidal manifestations. Even the Catholic saints have extremely "demonic" left-hand manifestations that will make your eyeballs melt.

New World sorcerers who do this, who do not live Haiti where survival is job one, I am like, where the fuck you guys living you have to do this all the time?