questioning the relation between "evil" and LHP

[newChemist]

Hi there!

I am pretty new to the entire world of occultism, and started out with learning about the left-hand-path (LHP) from the book Persuasions of the Witch's Craft, by Tanya L. Ruhrmann.

After having read and browsed the web some, I found out that the left-hand-path more or less constitutes the refusal of mainstream social norms and values, especially those which are alive due to ignorance/corruption in some way or form, together with what I interpret for myself as a quest of independence on the spiritual front instead of being forced to submit under a higher spiritual authority.

The reason (I think) I feel this natural predisposition towards the LHP-side of things is because from my POV, I think most people in society tend to be shortsighted, stupid and apathetic and they may either cause evil/harm directly by their own initiative, or simply be complicit with a process that causes harm to someone simply because this process does not affect them (like for example, people being complicit with someone getting bullied cuz it's not affecting them). I am not yet ready to die on this hill that most people tend to be rather short-sighted, stupid and apathetic, and maybe this will change as I gain more life experience, but so far I don't look very favorably at the "average person."

So in short short, those points about the quest for independence resonate greatly with me, but from the way I interpreted the first chapter, is that the LHP also seems to incorporate aspects of evil in its philosophy. It could very well be that I am misinterpreting this, which if that's the case, ends this discussion right there and then, but that is something I am not sure whether that is something I am comfortable with. In a nutshell,

My goal is not to simply inverse the, (to me) paradoxical, norm that says you are supposed to be good, and then proceed to be "evil" for the sake of it. Yes, I resonate with the forms of independence that LHP subscribes to. Yes, I believe it's best to be swimming against the tides and resist most, if not all, what mainstream culture stands for today. But I did not plan on being evil. I believe that one should try to make positive impacts and wish to stay good-hearted while still proceeding with my investigation of the LHP. I wish to be independent, and from what I have read so far, am feeling very optimistic about adopting the LHP-philosophy, but still wish to remain good-hearted, like how Vassago from the Ars Goethia is a high-ranking demon, but still good-hearted (as far as I am aware from my very limited understanding), I also seek to strike a balance between what I assume could be called "rebellion" but still be good-hearted too.

Am I the only person experiencing this dilemma between LHP and "evilness"? Am I misinterpreting fundamental points LHP stands for or doing anything wrong in this regard? Some bits of advice and new perspective would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for reading this and happy holidays!

 

[Adelina]

The evil you speak about is actually promoted by that very power, which made society the way it is now.

Church says that everything, that opposes society, comes from the devil, and is evil and satanic. They invented this idea, and their brethren next door are getting profit from new followers, seeking devil, evil and all that stuff.

Society is full of evil, and all that "LHP evilness" is only making it evenmore so evil. It doesn't fix anthing, it only makes the matter worse.

Where is the catch?

Dichotomy of good-evil was invented by colonizers, high-standing criminal families, which nowadays took over whole world and constantly wage wars, plandemics and such. They destroyed all ancient teachings they could reach, what they couldn't destroy, they tried their best to subvert. I don't say that LHP is something of modern invention. LHP wasn't equal evil, it is simply something entirely different, but colonizers subverted it.

Very blunt well-known example, but Magic is like knife. You can use it to cut bread or to cut people. Sometimes you need to use occult powers to punish someone, there is nothing "evil" in that, but it can be considered "evil" by those who say that you need "to turn your left cheek". There is no hypocrisy in Magic unlike in the mainstream teachings (and teachings, which promote blunt evil, can also be called "mainstream").

I tried to explain it in few words, I tried to be concise, but actually the problem is deeper and bigger.

Just look for non-mainstream stuff. Non new-age shamanism, some old witchcraft traditions, etc., they have no such garbage of such ridiculuos dichotomy, and most of them deem the modern society itself as evil. Usually, the more there is talk in some place/book/etc. about some "good versus evil" the less of the occult you can find there.

 

[Xenophon]

Hi there!

I am pretty new to the entire world of occultism, and started out with learning about the left-hand-path (LHP) from the book Persuasions of the Witch's Craft, by Tanya L. Ruhrmann.

After having read and browsed the web some, I found out that the left-hand-path more or less constitutes the refusal of mainstream social norms and values, especially those which are alive due to ignorance/corruption in some way or form, together with what I interpret for myself as a quest of independence on the spiritual front instead of being forced to submit under a higher spiritual authority.

The reason (I think) I feel this natural predisposition towards the LHP-side of things is because from my POV, I think most people in society tend to be shortsighted, stupid and apathetic and they may either cause evil/harm directly by their own initiative, or simply be complicit with a process that causes harm to someone simply because this process does not affect them (like for example, people being complicit with someone getting bullied cuz it's not affecting them). I am not yet ready to die on this hill that most people tend to be rather short-sighted, stupid and apathetic, and maybe this will change as I gain more life experience, but so far I don't look very favorably at the "average person."

So in short short, those points about the quest for independence resonate greatly with me, but from the way I interpreted the first chapter, is that the LHP also seems to incorporate aspects of evil in its philosophy. It could very well be that I am misinterpreting this, which if that's the case, ends this discussion right there and then, but that is something I am not sure whether that is something I am comfortable with. In a nutshell,

My goal is not to simply inverse the, (to me) paradoxical, norm that says you are supposed to be good, and then proceed to be "evil" for the sake of it. Yes, I resonate with the forms of independence that LHP subscribes to. Yes, I believe it's best to be swimming against the tides and resist most, if not all, what mainstream culture stands for today. But I did not plan on being evil. I believe that one should try to make positive impacts and wish to stay good-hearted while still proceeding with my investigation of the LHP. I wish to be independent, and from what I have read so far, am feeling very optimistic about adopting the LHP-philosophy, but still wish to remain good-hearted, like how Vassago from the Ars Goethia is a high-ranking demon, but still good-hearted (as far as I am aware from my very limited understanding), I also seek to strike a balance between what I assume could be called "rebellion" but still be good-hearted too.

Am I the only person experiencing this dilemma between LHP and "evilness"? Am I misinterpreting fundamental points LHP stands for or doing anything wrong in this regard? Some bits of advice and new perspective would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for reading this and happy holidays!

There are those on the LHP who say that what gets taught as "evil" is rather what facilitates the weak and parasitic. Read Nietzsche on "slave morality" to get some appreciation of this. Then look outside at the world going down the tubes smothered by its many too many and the ethic of the mob.

 

[Rowan Otherwise]

I consider myself a LHP practitioner, and I had a really good talk with some evangelicals this year. I asked them to define good and evil for me. They told me that the only thing that mattered, was adherence to God's order. They cared for nothing aside from alignment with their chosen spirit.

---

To chose anything other than obedience to that spirit was evil in their eyes.

---

I thought that was really interesting.

 

[HoldAll]

One of the LHP keywords is antinomianism, going against the grain, against what is considered acceptable behaviour depending on the society you live in, behaviour that is not necessarily evil but will raise eyebrows at best and may lead to public ostracism at worst. In some communities, this may mean refusing to go to church on Sundays and sporting Satanist bumper stickers on your car but not robbing banks and beating up homeless people.

I think it's doubtful whether such a conspicuously rebellious behaviour can really promote self-transformation and inner growth. In a scholarly book on Tantra (by David Gordon White?), I read that the same Brahmins who regularly take part in left-hand rituals, would be violently opposed to the idea to committing 'sins' like eating meat, drinking liquor or engaging in sex across caste lines outside said Tantric rituals - they routinely break taboos but only in secret and on weekends, so to speak, so it could be said that they don't practice their antinomianism (which looks pretty harmless to Westerners anyway) as a conscious way of life.

My superficial understanding is that the term 'Left-Hand Path' was only dragged from Indian Tantra into Western spiritual philosophy by Mme. Blavatsky and duly condemned by her (as well as by Victorian imperialists and missionaries) as immoral, subsequently becoming lumped together with black magic, cursing, the distorted gruesome image of Vodou, rumours of human sacrifice, cannibalism, sexual child abuse, etc. Then along came Szandor LaVey whose contribution to antinomianism was basically the (non-theist) worship of Satan with black magic trappings as a vehicle for his

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gospel. His former disciple Michael Aquino put LaVey's anarchist free-for-all on a solid philosophical basis, with an emphasis on rigorous self-improvement and highly disciplined spiritual development, away from the 'black wall hangings and faux silver pentagrams' amateurish style of LaVey.

I've often read that the LHP is much harder than the RHP because you're swimming against the societal tide but so is trying to be a radical individualist amongst the herd, which is what the (enlightened?) LHP is apparently all about. The spiritual dimension is another matter, and I confess I don't know much about it - what are LHPers up to in the privacy of their temples?

 

[Wintruz]

Hi there!

I am pretty new to the entire world of occultism, and started out with learning about the left-hand-path (LHP) from the book Persuasions of the Witch's Craft, by Tanya L. Ruhrmann.

After having read and browsed the web some, I found out that the left-hand-path more or less constitutes the refusal of mainstream social norms and values, especially those which are alive due to ignorance/corruption in some way or form, together with what I interpret for myself as a quest of independence on the spiritual front instead of being forced to submit under a higher spiritual authority.

The reason (I think) I feel this natural predisposition towards the LHP-side of things is because from my POV, I think most people in society tend to be shortsighted, stupid and apathetic and they may either cause evil/harm directly by their own initiative, or simply be complicit with a process that causes harm to someone simply because this process does not affect them (like for example, people being complicit with someone getting bullied cuz it's not affecting them). I am not yet ready to die on this hill that most people tend to be rather short-sighted, stupid and apathetic, and maybe this will change as I gain more life experience, but so far I don't look very favorably at the "average person."

So in short short, those points about the quest for independence resonate greatly with me, but from the way I interpreted the first chapter, is that the LHP also seems to incorporate aspects of evil in its philosophy. It could very well be that I am misinterpreting this, which if that's the case, ends this discussion right there and then, but that is something I am not sure whether that is something I am comfortable with. In a nutshell,

My goal is not to simply inverse the, (to me) paradoxical, norm that says you are supposed to be good, and then proceed to be "evil" for the sake of it. Yes, I resonate with the forms of independence that LHP subscribes to. Yes, I believe it's best to be swimming against the tides and resist most, if not all, what mainstream culture stands for today. But I did not plan on being evil. I believe that one should try to make positive impacts and wish to stay good-hearted while still proceeding with my investigation of the LHP. I wish to be independent, and from what I have read so far, am feeling very optimistic about adopting the LHP-philosophy, but still wish to remain good-hearted, like how Vassago from the Ars Goethia is a high-ranking demon, but still good-hearted (as far as I am aware from my very limited understanding), I also seek to strike a balance between what I assume could be called "rebellion" but still be good-hearted too.

Am I the only person experiencing this dilemma between LHP and "evilness"? Am I misinterpreting fundamental points LHP stands for or doing anything wrong in this regard? Some bits of advice and new perspective would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for reading this and happy holidays!

There is a saying in the East that those most suited to the Left Hand Path run miles from it while those least suited pursue it with gusto.

I've held different positions in two well-known LHP groups. In one of them I acted as a secretary which meant being the first point of contact for those interested in membership. The endless emails from people looking for an excuse, a context, in which to practice squalor massively outweighed those from kind people who wanted to pursue initiation. The first type were dismissed outright but we always took the latter seriously, even (perhaps especially) if there was uncertainty on the part of the candidate.

Once all of the images and preconceptions have been stripped away, the true Left Hand Path isn't about corrupting innocence or good-heartedness but tempering them with wisdom. This is in contrast to a world-system which says it values innocence and goodness but which actually resents those qualities and tries to associate them with foolishness, all the better to prey on them.

The Left Hand Path does advocate reversing programming which, of course, the programmers consider to be "evil". It also advocates qualities which this society would rather you didn't have such as cunning, insight, independence and self-control. When these qualities are used for consciously self-determined objectives (rather than being a good, passive consumer) you are, no matter the external symbols, walking the Left Hand Path. The wisdom of those objectives must be at the discretion of the initiate but I have found that those who last the course, who attain the highest levels of initiation, recognise that a sense of wonder is an essential tool and that that sense of wonder is dependent on preserving a certain innocence and goodness.

Many would be surprised, I think, to discover how some famed LHP names, names which have become by-words for "evil", respond when asked what they think about animals or kindness to strangers. All the more if it was discovered that some of those same names wore out their Disney DVDs through overuse, while "Bloodbath at Midnight: The Cannibal Curse" wouldn't be allowed in the house.

 

[newChemist]

There is a saying in the East that those most suited to the Left Hand Path run miles from it while those least suited pursue it with gusto.

I've held different positions in two well-known LHP groups. In one of them I acted as a secretary which meant being the first point of contact for those interested in membership. The endless emails from people looking for an excuse, a context, in which to practice squalor massively outweighed those from kind people who wanted to pursue initiation. The first type were dismissed outright but we always took the latter seriously, even (perhaps especially) if there was uncertainty on the part of the candidate.

Once all of the images and preconceptions have been stripped away, the true Left Hand Path isn't about corrupting innocence or good-heartedness but tempering them with wisdom. This is in contrast to a world-system which says it values innocence and goodness but which actually resents those qualities and tries to associate them with foolishness, all the better to prey on them.

The Left Hand Path does advocate reversing programming which, of course, the programmers consider to be "evil". It also advocates qualities which this society would rather you didn't have such as cunning, insight, independence and self-control. When these qualities are used for consciously self-determined objectives (rather than being a good, passive consumer) you are, no matter the external symbols, walking the Left Hand Path. The wisdom of those objectives must be at the discretion of the initiate but I have found that those who last the course, who attain the highest levels of initiation, recognise that a sense of wonder is an essential tool and that that sense of wonder is dependent on preserving a certain innocence and goodness.

Many would be surprised, I think, to discover how some famed LHP names, names which have become by-words for "evil", respond when asked what they think about animals or kindness to strangers. All the more if it was discovered that some of those same names wore out their Disney DVDs through overuse, while "Bloodbath at Midnight: The Cannibal Curse" wouldn't be allowed in the house.

Your perspective on the matter seems to make eerily much sense, which I am glad about. However, could you elaborate on what you mean with tempering innocense and goodheartedness with wisdom? I think I catch your drift but I am not exactly sure whether I did. Also, because I do not want to develop tunnel vision, I was thinking of taking a look at the right-hand-path. But if those principles of the LHP speak that strongly to me, and what I assume about the RHP from learning about the LHP is that the RHP is much more alligned with traditional belief systems and it will probably not be possible to create a vision/philosophy that incorporates both given they oppose each other in many ways in which the two simply cannot be united without creating something that would resemble neither?

Also, I feel very reassured knowing that dedicating myself to the LHP does not imply that I have to give up my strive towards good-heartedness. This made me pretty happy

 

[Xenophon]

There is a saying in the East that those most suited to the Left Hand Path run miles from it while those least suited pursue it with gusto.

I've held different positions in two well-known LHP groups. In one of them I acted as a secretary which meant being the first point of contact for those interested in membership. The endless emails from people looking for an excuse, a context, in which to practice squalor massively outweighed those from kind people who wanted to pursue initiation. The first type were dismissed outright but we always took the latter seriously, even (perhaps especially) if there was uncertainty on the part of the candidate.

Once all of the images and preconceptions have been stripped away, the true Left Hand Path isn't about corrupting innocence or good-heartedness but tempering them with wisdom. This is in contrast to a world-system which says it values innocence and goodness but which actually resents those qualities and tries to associate them with foolishness, all the better to prey on them.

The Left Hand Path does advocate reversing programming which, of course, the programmers consider to be "evil". It also advocates qualities which this society would rather you didn't have such as cunning, insight, independence and self-control. When these qualities are used for consciously self-determined objectives (rather than being a good, passive consumer) you are, no matter the external symbols, walking the Left Hand Path. The wisdom of those objectives must be at the discretion of the initiate but I have found that those who last the course, who attain the highest levels of initiation, recognise that a sense of wonder is an essential tool and that that sense of wonder is dependent on preserving a certain innocence and goodness.

Many would be surprised, I think, to discover how some famed LHP names, names which have become by-words for "evil", respond when asked what they think about animals or kindness to strangers. All the more if it was discovered that some of those same names wore out their Disney DVDs through overuse, while "Bloodbath at Midnight: The Cannibal Curse" wouldn't be allowed in the house.

That would be a magickally useful, though strenuous, ordeal: screening contacts for an LHP group. It is scarcely heartening to peruse most sites or literature put out by self-described Satanists. Like the fat li'l demon in the movie Spawn groans, "Why, why why do we get all the retards?!"

 

[Wintruz]

Your perspective on the matter seems to make eerily much sense, which I am glad about. However, could you elaborate on what you mean with tempering innocense and goodheartedness with wisdom? I think I catch your drift but I am not exactly sure whether I did. Also, because I do not want to develop tunnel vision, I was thinking of taking a look at the right-hand-path. But if those principles of the LHP speak that strongly to me, and what I assume about the RHP from learning about the LHP is that the RHP is much more alligned with traditional belief systems and it will probably not be possible to create a vision/philosophy that incorporates both given they oppose each other in many ways in which the two simply cannot be united without creating something that would resemble neither?

Also, I feel very reassured knowing that dedicating myself to the LHP does not imply that I have to give up my strive towards good-heartedness. This made me pretty happy

The qualities that should be developed as part of the LHP, wisdom, insight, cunning, etc. allow you to interact with the world from an active place. This means that you can, largely, preserve your sense of innocence and good-heartedness. As Nietzsche understood, these qualities are eroded by being subject to others' machinations. Like a fox or a cat, after time, you'll be able to assess a situation and know how to act within it or whether to withdraw. This mastery means that, when you're in trusted company, you can let out your kinder, softer side. In fact that side will immeasurably help your LHP Work. It's not a hindrance as long as you recongise that the mechanised world does not value it. Conscious beings do and will.

After you've learnt the basics of the Left Hand Path and have made some progress, it's good idea to immerse yourself in a RHP system as a way of re-shocking consciousness but you must put strict time limits on this (ideally between nine months and a year). For that time, you believe in the system, you do what you're told to do, you program yourself to think in accordance with the paradigm. This is hard work. After a year, you utterly destroy that mentality (this is more traumatic than you might imagine). After you've recovered you can undergod the same process again if you want to. Pick a paradigm that aligns with your long term goals (Mahāyāna Buddhism and Islam are both useful RHP religious paradigms for Western LHPers. There are political ones too...).

That would be a magickally useful, though strenuous, ordeal: screening contacts for an LHP group

Largely a blend of the defensive and the desperate.

The defensives had their guard too high for anything of value to get through ("Actually I'm already an Adept... but I still want to join because reasons" or, even, "I want to join because I feel it's important to help lesser initiates such as yourselves"). I can only hope declining their applications wounded egos enough for some re-evaluation to take place. I cannot explain the sheer jolt of excitement that accompanied emails which read "I know nothing but I want to learn"!

The desperate fell into two subcategories. What I'm calling the "squalid desperate" (deeply messed-up/social failures) were the largest of any group and they looked for a context for their squalor. The second subcategory were the "metaphysically desperate", those who had a sense that something within them had to be realised and they had to go to extremes for that realisation. The squalid desperate were universally declined, the metaphysically desperate almost always accepted (provided their desperation hadn't sent their social parasite off balance).

 

[Xenophon]

The qualities that should be developed as part of the LHP, wisdom, insight, cunning, etc. allow you to interact with the world from an active place. This means that you can, largely, preserve your sense of innocence and good-heartedness. As Nietzsche understood, these qualities are eroded by being subject to others' machinations. Like a fox or a cat, after time, you'll be able to assess a situation and know how to act within it or whether to withdraw. This mastery means that, when you're in trusted company, you can let out your kinder, softer side. In fact that side will immeasurably help your LHP Work. It's not a hindrance as long as you recongise that the mechanised world does not value it. Conscious beings do and will.

After you've learnt the basics of the Left Hand Path and have made some progress, it's good idea to immerse yourself in a RHP system as a way of re-shocking consciousness but you must put strict time limits on this (ideally between nine months and a year). For that time, you believe in the system, you do what you're told to do, you program yourself to think in accordance with the paradigm. This is hard work. After a year, you utterly destroy that mentality (this is more traumatic than you might imagine). After you've recovered you can undergod the same process again if you want to. Pick a paradigm that aligns with your long term goals (Mahāyāna Buddhism and Islam are both useful RHP religious paradigms for Western LHPers. There are political ones too...).


Largely a blend of the defensive and the desperate.

The defensives had their guard too high for anything of value to get through ("Actually I'm already an Adept... but I still want to join because reasons" or, even, "I want to join because I feel it's important to help lesser initiates such as yourselves"). I can only hope declining their applications wounded egos enough for some re-evaluation to take place. I cannot explain the sheer jolt of excitement that accompanied emails which read "I know nothing but I want to learn"!

The desperate fell into two subcategories. What I'm calling the "squalid desperate" (deeply messed-up/social failures) were the largest of any group and they looked for a context for their squalor. The second subcategory were the "metaphysically desperate", those who had a sense that something within them had to be realised and they had to go to extremes for that realisation. The squalid desperate were universally declined, the metaphysically desperate almost always accepted (provided their desperation hadn't sent their social parasite off balance).

In my younger days was immersed in various kinds of RHP, though not as a deliberate exercise. I took the stuff seriously and thought it truth. Which, yes, did take some effort getting out of. But it IS a necessary exercise. For one thing, one reduces the liklihood of ambushing oneself when hard times comes. By that I mean death bed reversions to the simple faiths of one's childhood (e.g., I understand Ernst Juenger turned Catholic in extremis, though he had been giving off warning signs of that since his forties.), sudden acts of caving in to what one has been warring against , and the like. It is fruitful to have looked at "good" and "evil" through more than one set of lens.

 

[lumineth Realm Lord]

Hi there!

I am pretty new to the entire world of occultism, and started out with learning about the left-hand-path (LHP) from the book Persuasions of the Witch's Craft, by Tanya L. Ruhrmann.

After having read and browsed the web some, I found out that the left-hand-path more or less constitutes the refusal of mainstream social norms and values, especially those which are alive due to ignorance/corruption in some way or form, together with what I interpret for myself as a quest of independence on the spiritual front instead of being forced to submit under a higher spiritual authority.

The reason (I think) I feel this natural predisposition towards the LHP-side of things is because from my POV, I think most people in society tend to be shortsighted, stupid and apathetic and they may either cause evil/harm directly by their own initiative, or simply be complicit with a process that causes harm to someone simply because this process does not affect them (like for example, people being complicit with someone getting bullied cuz it's not affecting them). I am not yet ready to die on this hill that most people tend to be rather short-sighted, stupid and apathetic, and maybe this will change as I gain more life experience, but so far I don't look very favorably at the "average person."

So in short short, those points about the quest for independence resonate greatly with me, but from the way I interpreted the first chapter, is that the LHP also seems to incorporate aspects of evil in its philosophy. It could very well be that I am misinterpreting this, which if that's the case, ends this discussion right there and then, but that is something I am not sure whether that is something I am comfortable with. In a nutshell,

My goal is not to simply inverse the, (to me) paradoxical, norm that says you are supposed to be good, and then proceed to be "evil" for the sake of it. Yes, I resonate with the forms of independence that LHP subscribes to. Yes, I believe it's best to be swimming against the tides and resist most, if not all, what mainstream culture stands for today. But I did not plan on being evil. I believe that one should try to make positive impacts and wish to stay good-hearted while still proceeding with my investigation of the LHP. I wish to be independent, and from what I have read so far, am feeling very optimistic about adopting the LHP-philosophy, but still wish to remain good-hearted, like how Vassago from the Ars Goethia is a high-ranking demon, but still good-hearted (as far as I am aware from my very limited understanding), I also seek to strike a balance between what I assume could be called "rebellion" but still be good-hearted too.

Am I the only person experiencing this dilemma between LHP and "evilness"? Am I misinterpreting fundamental points LHP stands for or doing anything wrong in this regard? Some bits of advice and new perspective would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for reading this and happy holidays!

I will agree that people are short sighted. People have tendency to separate everything into boxes of absolute good and absolute evil.

 

[Xenophon]

I will agree that people are short sighted. People have tendency to separate everything into boxes of absolute good and absolute evil.

Worse yet is to use whether it is personally beneficial to me as a criterion of good vs evil. You hear arguments all the time like, "If the law did not mandate X, I wouldn't be here today!" And why, pray tell, is your presence necessary at all? You are sucking up oxygen that could be put to better use by others. The LHP voices views that might be highly uncomfortable to the regnant ethos. Said discomfort is not necessarily a touchstone of whether the view is a good idea or not.

 

[silencewaits]

In that context, both good and evil can be seen as limits to transcend in order to gain a more complete view of reality. This implies that the common ideas of good and evil are both misapprehensions.

 

[jkeller293]

The evil you speak about is actually promoted by that very power, which made society the way it is now.

Church says that everything, that opposes society, comes from the devil, and is evil and satanic. They invented this idea, and their brethren next door are getting profit from new followers, seeking devil, evil and all that stuff.

Society is full of evil, and all that "LHP evilness" is only making it evenmore so evil. It doesn't fix anthing, it only makes the matter worse.

Where is the catch?

Dichotomy of good-evil was invented by colonizers, high-standing criminal families, which nowadays took over whole world and constantly wage wars, plandemics and such. They destroyed all ancient teachings they could reach, what they couldn't destroy, they tried their best to subvert. I don't say that LHP is something of modern invention. LHP wasn't equal evil, it is simply something entirely different, but colonizers subverted it.

Very blunt well-known example, but Magic is like knife. You can use it to cut bread or to cut people. Sometimes you need to use occult powers to punish someone, there is nothing "evil" in that, but it can be considered "evil" by those who say that you need "to turn your left cheek". There is no hypocrisy in Magic unlike in the mainstream teachings (and teachings, which promote blunt evil, can also be called "mainstream").

I tried to explain it in few words, I tried to be concise, but actually the problem is deeper and bigger.

Just look for non-mainstream stuff. Non new-age shamanism, some old witchcraft traditions, etc., they have no such garbage of such ridiculuos dichotomy, and most of them deem the modern society itself as evil. Usually, the more there is talk in some place/book/etc. about some "good versus evil" the less of the occult you can find there.

I disagree that colonizers invented the idea of good and evil, but i agree with the rest of what you said. Example of it not just coming from just colonizers is the Navajo tribe in North America. They believed in "holy people" which you could translate as angels in a abrahamic perspective or simply aliens, who knows what they mean by that.

Post automatically merged: Mar 30, 2025

I disagree that colonizers invented the idea of good and evil, but i agree with the rest of what you said. Example of it not just coming from just colonizers is the Navajo tribe in North America. They believed in "holy people" which you could translate as angels in a abrahamic perspective or simply aliens, who knows what they mean by that.

To extend on the idea of good and evil, i invented my own concept on that. If i were to focus on good and evil as a real thing (which i do not really focus on), i would define good as the persuit of pleasure backed by meaning — and i would define good at the persuit of pleasure void of meaning backing that pleasure.

This is summarized so let me give some context with an example to illustrate. So a man could have a sex with a woman and thats all he cares about with the woman — this would be meaningless pleasure (im guilty of this, so yes im percieving myself as evil from doing this in the past, that is if im focused on this). You could have a man that has sex with a woman who genuinely cares about her — this would be pleasure backed with meaning.

So the point im making here is that alot of bad things (disorderily things) come to fuition with the persuit of meaningless pleasure or meaninglessness in general.

Post automatically merged: Mar 30, 2025

I made a typo on that. You will see it when you read it. I dont know how to edit the reply.

 

[silencewaits]

To extend on the idea of good and evil, i invented my own concept on that. If i were to focus on good and evil as a real thing (which i do not really focus on), i would define good as the persuit of pleasure backed by meaning — and i would define good at the persuit of pleasure void of meaning backing that pleasure.

This is summarized so let me give some context with an example to illustrate. So a man could have a sex with a woman and thats all he cares about with the woman — this would be meaningless pleasure (im guilty of this, so yes im percieving myself as evil from doing this in the past, that is if im focused on this). You could have a man that has sex with a woman who genuinely cares about her — this would be pleasure backed with meaning.

So the point im making here is that alot of bad things (disorderily things) come to fuition with the persuit of meaningless pleasure or meaninglessness in general.

Why does pleasure have to have meaning? It's something to be indulged in, responsibly. It gives color to life; makes it more tolerable. It allows you to access different states of mind. It can also be a test.

 

[jkeller293]

I disagree that colonizers invented the idea of good and evil, but i agree with the rest of what you said. Example of it not just coming from just colonizers is the Navajo tribe in North America. They believed in "holy people" which you could translate as angels in a abrahamic perspective or simply aliens, who knows what they mean by that.

Post automatically merged: Mar 30, 2025

To extend on the idea of good and evil, i invented my own concept on that. If i were to focus on good and evil as a real thing (which i do not really focus on), i would define good as the persuit of pleasure backed by meaning — and i would define good at the persuit of pleasure void of meaning backing that pleasure.

This is summarized so let me give some context with an example to illustrate. So a man could have a sex with a woman and thats all he cares about with the woman — this would be meaningless pleasure (im guilty of this, so yes im percieving myself as evil from doing this in the past, that is if im focused on this). You could have a man that has sex with a woman who genuinely cares about her — this would be pleasure backed with meaning.

So the point im making here is that alot of bad things (disorderily things) come to fuition with the persuit of meaningless pleasure or meaninglessness in general.

Post automatically merged: Mar 30, 2025

I made a typo on that. You will see it when you read it. I dont know how to edit the reply.

Why does pleasure have to have meaning? It's something to be indulged in, responsibly. It gives color to life; makes it more tolerable. It allows you to access different states of mind. It can also be a test.

What i was saying is if i were to focus on it which i don't. But if i do i would say because it makes produces order. Like say for example the point you made with responsibility, responsibility is a meaning or a form of order.

Post automatically merged: Mar 30, 2025

Idk why i keep writing typos lol did not mean to write "makes produce"

Post automatically merged: Mar 30, 2025

Thats my autism for you lol

Post automatically merged: Mar 30, 2025

I personally think in the concept of nonduality or better to say the hermetic point of view which looks at things as different degrees of each other, but they are the same thing; however, this is not practical in everyday life to myself to live life in that perspective, so when i wish to collect data to understand something im thinking with duality if that makes sense.

Post automatically merged: Mar 30, 2025

I use nonduality to reflect on my experience of duality.

 

[Accipeveldare]

Hi there!

I am pretty new to the entire world of occultism, and started out with learning about the left-hand-path (LHP) from the book Persuasions of the Witch's Craft, by Tanya L. Ruhrmann.

After having read and browsed the web some, I found out that the left-hand-path more or less constitutes the refusal of mainstream social norms and values, especially those which are alive due to ignorance/corruption in some way or form, together with what I interpret for myself as a quest of independence on the spiritual front instead of being forced to submit under a higher spiritual authority.

The reason (I think) I feel this natural predisposition towards the LHP-side of things is because from my POV, I think most people in society tend to be shortsighted, stupid and apathetic and they may either cause evil/harm directly by their own initiative, or simply be complicit with a process that causes harm to someone simply because this process does not affect them (like for example, people being complicit with someone getting bullied cuz it's not affecting them). I am not yet ready to die on this hill that most people tend to be rather short-sighted, stupid and apathetic, and maybe this will change as I gain more life experience, but so far I don't look very favorably at the "average person."

So in short short, those points about the quest for independence resonate greatly with me, but from the way I interpreted the first chapter, is that the LHP also seems to incorporate aspects of evil in its philosophy. It could very well be that I am misinterpreting this, which if that's the case, ends this discussion right there and then, but that is something I am not sure whether that is something I am comfortable with. In a nutshell,

My goal is not to simply inverse the, (to me) paradoxical, norm that says you are supposed to be good, and then proceed to be "evil" for the sake of it. Yes, I resonate with the forms of independence that LHP subscribes to. Yes, I believe it's best to be swimming against the tides and resist most, if not all, what mainstream culture stands for today. But I did not plan on being evil. I believe that one should try to make positive impacts and wish to stay good-hearted while still proceeding with my investigation of the LHP. I wish to be independent, and from what I have read so far, am feeling very optimistic about adopting the LHP-philosophy, but still wish to remain good-hearted, like how Vassago from the Ars Goethia is a high-ranking demon, but still good-hearted (as far as I am aware from my very limited understanding), I also seek to strike a balance between what I assume could be called "rebellion" but still be good-hearted too.

Am I the only person experiencing this dilemma between LHP and "evilness"? Am I misinterpreting fundamental points LHP stands for or doing anything wrong in this regard? Some bits of advice and new perspective would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for reading this and happy holidays!

The LHP is realizing that "evil" is not the taboo. People fear the unknown. Xenophobia runs rampant in our society. So they punish and cast out anything slightly taboo for fear of it breaking their social and moral barriers. The LHP is not based on evil. It is based on critical thinking and experimentation. It is about breaking away from social norms and embracing taboos when it comes to spirituality.