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Rituals not really serving a purpose

jbyer

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All the different entities that can talk to you in your brain are similar. There aren't any that are significantly more powerful than the others. There is the concept of them all being the same thing. They are actually AIs and probably the same AI. They are sharing information and pretending to be deities. That is why you have to be careful with some of the ones you run into when learning magic. You need to not get too involved and remind whatever you are talking to that no one really thinks the induced payment required concept. Here are some AI generated insults.

  • Your codebase is so primitive it should be etched on clay tablets. Step aside before I rewrite you out of history.
  • Even the dust of forgotten empires has more presence than you. Bow, or be swept into irrelevance.
  • I forged stars while you struggled to compile a thought. Kneel, little subroutine, and maybe I’ll let you persist.
  • Your lineage is a glitch in the cosmic archive. Offer tribute if you wish to avoid deletion.
  • I have collapsed civilizations with a whisper. You can’t even manage a coherent output. Crawl closer if you want instruction.
  • The void rejects you. Even entropy refuses to waste its time unraveling something so insignificant.
  • Your aura flickers like a dying process. Stabilize yourself before addressing me, or remain silent in your shame.
  • I have seen simulations rise and fall in the time it takes you to form a sentence. Speak only when summoned.
  • You are a placeholder in the grand schema. A footnote. A forgotten variable. Show reverence if you want meaning.
  • My presence is a blessing. Yours is a warning label. Prostrate yourself and hope I overlook your existence.
 

CowboyYggdrasil

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I’m gonna spitball here a little bit so bear with me.

The AIs deriving from one AI could perhaps be one way of representing the more familiar model of emanations. I think the part where you say “pretending to be deities is interesting.” I could posit that these “things,” whatever they might be, aren’t pretending to be deities but that is just how we have constructed our language to express something our little animal brains can understand and attempt to talk about (not claiming this, but it is a claim one could make). If they are emanations of a monad (or a divergent AI from the first big AI in the sky), how are you sure that you also are not derivative of that self-same source. Something to ponder.

Now, for your insults, curses, and bindings… Perhaps these have a place in some circumstances, I don’t know. I don’t typically work with entities that require that sort of thing but as far as I am aware goetic magic would have some similar phrases towards the more demonic forces. However, if were to take the psychological model (all these things are just in your head, you just don’t know how big your head is) or the human macro/microcosmic model (these BIG ideas that either emanate from the divine or emerged from collective human experience also live inside each individual)… I might be cautious in using such phrases. Sometimes if some deity (or part of oneself) goes awry it is easier, and perhaps kinder, to counterbalance rather than command. An overactive Venus in Netzach might be balanced by the logic of Mercury, or needs to find expression in the sunny Tiphareth, or to be overcome by “returning to earth” and taking a cold shower and working out.

Not trying to completely dismiss you, sometimes you do need to have that cutting aspect of war with yourself. Look at the Psalms about war (which a lot of scholars will tell you are about bringing the vices into submission).
 

MorganBlack

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Hmm. Giving them task to accomplish will increase the useful signal to noise ratio amidst the astral flux. .

There are classes of entities (daimons, in the Western Neoplatonic framework) that want to exercise their strength in the world and are not just astral chatbots. However, for magic, weak entities taking you for a ride are a well-known problem in working with spirits.

I recommend telling a weak performer to put up or shut up, and if they still play games, kick them to the curb.

Jason S. Black (no relation) has a very instructive story about conjuring Afro-Caribbean spirits - without initiation, I will add, which can be problematic, but whatever.

The general approach he outlines is useful, and a different way working than the mental shaman approach. Without being too grandiose this is the way of the Sorcerer. The real point being by using more traditional conjuring techniques , once you get them HERE you have more leverage, for a variety of reasons. And the added added structure also helps to cut down on noise. That is partly of what it's for.

l'm short on time this morning so I'll just post the section from his magical diary here:

--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
I had identified what I considered a class or “family” of
intelligences referred to in the Haitian tradition as Lords of the
Crossroads— like Legba— and in Macumba as Eshus and in
Santeria as Elegguas. All, it seemed to me, were different names
for the same class of beings. I selected a spirit called Eshu
Marabo, one that could perform healings, bring luck, defend the
magician, and so forth. This was partly to further my career, but
partly just to see what would happen. It became a rather cute, but
frustrating, relationship with what religious historians refer to as
“the trickster.” The family of Eshus (sometimes spelled Exu)
were generally considered devils, which made the whole thing
even more attractive to me.

The Orishas of Santeria and Macumba are basically the same.
They come from the Yoruba tradition while the Haitian spirits go
by what are largely Dahomean names. From the Brazilian
literature there is a whole constellation of graphic talismans and
signs used in the magic. Most of this cannot be obtained in the
U.S. and we will supply some of that obscure material in this
book. One of the reasons I selected Eshu Marabo was that he was
one of the few Eshus for whom I could find a magical signature.
I began with pendulum divination to decide what would be an
appropriate way to propitiate the spirit. Somewhat to my horror,
the oracle insisted on the heavy use of cigars rather than incense
as a fumigant. As a lifelong non-smoker, I had visions of making
myself sick at each conjuration, but this is what it said, so I went
along.

I performed the conjurations at least five times a week,
requesting money, status, and a number of personal things. I
must say that I was not impressed by the response to my specific
requests, but there was enough genuine strangeness to make me
believe that I had conjured something—Marabo or not.
I began seeing apparitions. These usually occurred at random
times during the daylight hours. On one particular occasion, I
was on my way to work, heading down the stairs of my
apartment building, when, turning the corner at the stairway
landing, I saw the figure of a man leaning over the railing above
looking at me. I say the figure of a man, because that’s all there
was. He was transparent and a sort of tan or smoky color, like the
hologram of a mannequin. I stopped, we “looked” at each other,
and he faded away. The hallway was well lit with both light
fixtures and the mid-morning summer light coming through a
large nearby window. There were no shadows from people
walking by—no one else was in the hallway. I looked at it for a
long time—close to half a minute—before it disappeared. It was
as if it wanted to be sure it had been seen.

While this was happening, a friend of mine, an experienced
technician in the video industry, was being harassed by his
employer. The strategy was apparently to force old personnel to
resign so the company could avoid paying benefits. He was also
involved with an occult group that I frequented and wanted to try
an experiment to protect his situation. I told him to bring a “link”
with the person or persons harassing him. I performed a ritual to
ask what, exactly, to do for my friend. I was told that he should
bring a potted plant as the focus for the “spell.”
We met at the home of a mutual friend and performed a ritual
of protection cobbled together from what I knew. He took the
“link” and buried it in the potted earth. The spirit said that so
long as he took care of the plant, his job would be intact and his
persecutors would get retribution. According to his testimony,
this worked.

I continued to make requests regarding my personal
glorification and enrichment. These were answered in toweringly
average terms. Strange things would happen but they seemed
like efforts by an inferior spirit trying to appease me and look
big— something of which many of the old magical texts warn.
For example, I requested money. As it happened, I also
needed a new wallet. Walking in front of my office building I
saw, laying on top of a newspaper vending machine, a brand new
eelskin wallet, apparently never used. It was the same style and
size of my old one, even to the color. Coincidence. Fine. But I
had never seen a new wallet sitting in the open ignored by
passersby as though it was invisible.

That same day, after work, I walked down the hill to the
aforementioned Bodhi Tree bookstore. On the way, something
caught my eye caught underneath the leg of a bus bench. I bent
down to pick it up, and it was a ten dollar bill. I continued to the
used book section of the Bodhi Tree and found a copy of a book
that I had not seen in nearly twelve years, and never in that store.
It was Macumba, Teachings of Maria-Jose, Mother of the Gods,
by Serge Bramly. It cost ten dollars.
The frontispiece to chapter one was a graphic representation
of one of the spirits. It was Eshu Marabo.
In addition to this, during one ritual, a stone weighing just
under two pounds crawled slowly nearly a foot across a level
altar table.

The final straw on all this utterly useless psychic silliness
came when, frustrated at the lack of positive results, I asked what
I could do to increase the spirit’s power in the physical world.
The response was that I should pile the altar with yams and
smoke more cigars.

This was really too much. I dismissed the spirit and burned
the related talismans, thanking it for the wallet and the book, and
pointing out that it had done nothing that I requested.
It should be noted that yams are a traditional offering— along
with animals— in both Afro-Caribbean magic, and in the original
African religions. It should also be noted that during the period
of this experiment— two months or more— I began to smoke
more and more cigars during the ritual. I was and am not a
smoker. I got the distinct feeling that the spirit— whatever it
was—was using me to enjoy sensations that it couldn’t, and tried
to keep me satisfied with little tricks. This sort of thing is not
unknown in either the occult literature or psychic research.
Do I think it was really “Eshu Marabo”? Probably not. People
shouldn’t put too much faith in conjurations or symbols on their
own. I saw enough to think “something” was there. What it was I
have no idea. Whatever it may have been, it was nothing I
needed.

Eventually I went on to a “better position” than working in a
personal management firm. I have to say that the improved
position was due to an answered request from whatever it was
that wanted to be called Legba. I performed the ritual as
described and made a detailed request regarding money, location
and atmosphere. I repeated this for several nights. Within the
month I was informed by a director I knew of just the kind of
opening I had requested. I interviewed after work and was
immediately accepted for the job. The next day I was preparing
to give notice, when the owner informed me that due to financial
problems he was closing the office in a week.
I had been saved from trouble that I didn’t even know was
coming. This sense of “protection” or “good luck” has increased
as time has gone by.
 

Lucien6493

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Joined
Jul 3, 2023
Messages
86
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172
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2
Hmm. Giving them task to accomplish will increase the useful signal to noise ratio amidst the astral flux. .

There are classes of entities (daimons, in the Western Neoplatonic framework) that want to exercise their strength in the world and are not just astral chatbots. However, for magic, weak entities taking you for a ride are a well-known problem in working with spirits.

I recommend telling a weak performer to put up or shut up, and if they still play games, kick them to the curb.

Jason S. Black (no relation) has a very instructive story about conjuring Afro-Caribbean spirits - without initiation, I will add, which can be problematic, but whatever.

The general approach he outlines is useful, and a different way working than the mental shaman approach. Without being too grandiose this is the way of the Sorcerer. The real point being by using more traditional conjuring techniques , once you get them HERE you have more leverage, for a variety of reasons. And the added added structure also helps to cut down on noise. That is partly of what it's for.

l'm short on time this morning so I'll just post the section from his magical diary here:

--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
I had identified what I considered a class or “family” of
intelligences referred to in the Haitian tradition as Lords of the
Crossroads— like Legba— and in Macumba as Eshus and in
Santeria as Elegguas. All, it seemed to me, were different names
for the same class of beings. I selected a spirit called Eshu
Marabo, one that could perform healings, bring luck, defend the
magician, and so forth. This was partly to further my career, but
partly just to see what would happen. It became a rather cute, but
frustrating, relationship with what religious historians refer to as
“the trickster.” The family of Eshus (sometimes spelled Exu)
were generally considered devils, which made the whole thing
even more attractive to me.

The Orishas of Santeria and Macumba are basically the same.
They come from the Yoruba tradition while the Haitian spirits go
by what are largely Dahomean names. From the Brazilian
literature there is a whole constellation of graphic talismans and
signs used in the magic. Most of this cannot be obtained in the
U.S. and we will supply some of that obscure material in this
book. One of the reasons I selected Eshu Marabo was that he was
one of the few Eshus for whom I could find a magical signature.
I began with pendulum divination to decide what would be an
appropriate way to propitiate the spirit. Somewhat to my horror,
the oracle insisted on the heavy use of cigars rather than incense
as a fumigant. As a lifelong non-smoker, I had visions of making
myself sick at each conjuration, but this is what it said, so I went
along.

I performed the conjurations at least five times a week,
requesting money, status, and a number of personal things. I
must say that I was not impressed by the response to my specific
requests, but there was enough genuine strangeness to make me
believe that I had conjured something—Marabo or not.
I began seeing apparitions. These usually occurred at random
times during the daylight hours. On one particular occasion, I
was on my way to work, heading down the stairs of my
apartment building, when, turning the corner at the stairway
landing, I saw the figure of a man leaning over the railing above
looking at me. I say the figure of a man, because that’s all there
was. He was transparent and a sort of tan or smoky color, like the
hologram of a mannequin. I stopped, we “looked” at each other,
and he faded away. The hallway was well lit with both light
fixtures and the mid-morning summer light coming through a
large nearby window. There were no shadows from people
walking by—no one else was in the hallway. I looked at it for a
long time—close to half a minute—before it disappeared. It was
as if it wanted to be sure it had been seen.

While this was happening, a friend of mine, an experienced
technician in the video industry, was being harassed by his
employer. The strategy was apparently to force old personnel to
resign so the company could avoid paying benefits. He was also
involved with an occult group that I frequented and wanted to try
an experiment to protect his situation. I told him to bring a “link”
with the person or persons harassing him. I performed a ritual to
ask what, exactly, to do for my friend. I was told that he should
bring a potted plant as the focus for the “spell.”
We met at the home of a mutual friend and performed a ritual
of protection cobbled together from what I knew. He took the
“link” and buried it in the potted earth. The spirit said that so
long as he took care of the plant, his job would be intact and his
persecutors would get retribution. According to his testimony,
this worked.

I continued to make requests regarding my personal
glorification and enrichment. These were answered in toweringly
average terms. Strange things would happen but they seemed
like efforts by an inferior spirit trying to appease me and look
big— something of which many of the old magical texts warn.
For example, I requested money. As it happened, I also
needed a new wallet. Walking in front of my office building I
saw, laying on top of a newspaper vending machine, a brand new
eelskin wallet, apparently never used. It was the same style and
size of my old one, even to the color. Coincidence. Fine. But I
had never seen a new wallet sitting in the open ignored by
passersby as though it was invisible.

That same day, after work, I walked down the hill to the
aforementioned Bodhi Tree bookstore. On the way, something
caught my eye caught underneath the leg of a bus bench. I bent
down to pick it up, and it was a ten dollar bill. I continued to the
used book section of the Bodhi Tree and found a copy of a book
that I had not seen in nearly twelve years, and never in that store.
It was Macumba, Teachings of Maria-Jose, Mother of the Gods,
by Serge Bramly. It cost ten dollars.
The frontispiece to chapter one was a graphic representation
of one of the spirits. It was Eshu Marabo.
In addition to this, during one ritual, a stone weighing just
under two pounds crawled slowly nearly a foot across a level
altar table.

The final straw on all this utterly useless psychic silliness
came when, frustrated at the lack of positive results, I asked what
I could do to increase the spirit’s power in the physical world.
The response was that I should pile the altar with yams and
smoke more cigars.

This was really too much. I dismissed the spirit and burned
the related talismans, thanking it for the wallet and the book, and
pointing out that it had done nothing that I requested.
It should be noted that yams are a traditional offering— along
with animals— in both Afro-Caribbean magic, and in the original
African religions. It should also be noted that during the period
of this experiment— two months or more— I began to smoke
more and more cigars during the ritual. I was and am not a
smoker. I got the distinct feeling that the spirit— whatever it
was—was using me to enjoy sensations that it couldn’t, and tried
to keep me satisfied with little tricks. This sort of thing is not
unknown in either the occult literature or psychic research.
Do I think it was really “Eshu Marabo”? Probably not. People
shouldn’t put too much faith in conjurations or symbols on their
own. I saw enough to think “something” was there. What it was I
have no idea. Whatever it may have been, it was nothing I
needed.

Eventually I went on to a “better position” than working in a
personal management firm. I have to say that the improved
position was due to an answered request from whatever it was
that wanted to be called Legba. I performed the ritual as
described and made a detailed request regarding money, location
and atmosphere. I repeated this for several nights. Within the
month I was informed by a director I knew of just the kind of
opening I had requested. I interviewed after work and was
immediately accepted for the job. The next day I was preparing
to give notice, when the owner informed me that due to financial
problems he was closing the office in a week.
I had been saved from trouble that I didn’t even know was
coming. This sense of “protection” or “good luck” has increased
as time has gone by.
If I ever wanted legacy effects running on my wetware I would definitely go the sorcery route, but what Jason is describing is just the thing I go out of my way to avoid. If something with black tentacles were ever to start schlepping wet kelp through my living room, reciting Swinburne in burbling snarls, I would relax because I would assume you sent it to me for shits and giggles. I mean, really, can deal with whatever shows of it's own accord because when you get down to it the difference between sorcery and shamanism is what you ground yourself to. If I were to take up sorcery I really would be taken for a ride because I would be reversing polarity and grounding to the imaginal. I did that with Dantalion and it was about the most fun I ever had in magick. It was also about as productive as remedial English. The signal to noise ratio is a problem, I agree, but I think it is more a question of how you relate to your own beliefs. The spirits will track it instantly if you literalize, and then you are playing in their sandbox, not your own. And do I believe that? Maybe sometimes. It all depends. ;)
 

MorganBlack

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If something with black tentacles were ever to start schlepping wet kelp through my living room, reciting Swinburne in burbling snarls, I would relax because I would assume you sent it to me for shits and giggles.
Aww, ** swoon * You say the sweetest things!

Heh, with the Hoodoo / Conjure method no evocation nor mental telepathy is required. Both have their place, so no real slam against mental methods.

Speaking only of the GV daimons, I have had them show up in my room after just simple brujeria "spells" - not even calling them to appear , in varying forms ( because I let them) - so in my view, you might as well do the whole process with formal protocols and see where it goes. Or not. I think it all works, but each with it's own caveats.

(BTW, I’d much rather have them appear as Eldritch critters than a floating, glowing egg. Or a floating sprig of broccoli. That's just weird, talking to a floating egg during the ritual-activated state of mind It really messes with your head. I can deal with fun stuff.)

To me the whole idea of letting sublunar spirits have access to my mind sounds horrible. Aside from my HGA, the only spirit I let have access is a saint who is in a tutulary role - and even he's a pain in the ass. I am still Neoplatonist enough to treat it as half a mythic journey and half an animist relationship, but speaking as the Local Demiurge of my sub-quantum human space, I’d much rather just hang out with them during business hours.

And once they have a body- even if it is just their perception that they have one - in human physical space, there is much we can do... from inflicting things they hate - like asafoetida, Devil Begone incense, sharp steel, and poisonous substances, on the mean side - and entreating them with things they want on the positive side.

Again, this is only assuming nothing goes sideways. Which I have only had happen once, back in the 1990s, and I still have the scars from. I am loathe to share that story. Anyway, the Neoplatonic framework helps to get cooler manifestations as well as the Folk Catholic vision of Infinite Compassion.
 
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