YT: ReligionForBreakfast - Aphantasia as an indicator of Atheism

[Taudefindi]

Interesting.

This is probably not 100% correlated but aphantasia , a condition of not being able to visualize images in your mind, may cause start some people on the road to becoming atheists. Also correlated in part is not being able to form a theory of mind about other people.


Religion For Breakfast -The Real Reasons Why People Become Atheists

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I have to disagree with this theory.
In my case I always had an excelent "mind's eye", to the point of even be able to sometime reproduce sensations in my visualizations.
And I still became an atheist despite it, so to link aphantasia with being atheism feels a bit forced or playing on a person's own biases.

Like already having the answer you want and trying to make the proof fit it, rather than studying whatever proof is available to see if it may match your theory.

I wonder though what are the odds of aphantasia+other limitations/events working together to put someone onto the path of atheism.

 

[MorganBlack]

Grr. I like the exploration of magical-practices-when-neurodivergent , with an eye to inclusivity much more, but back to the main thrust.

I think we can safely say some but not all people with aphantasia may process abstract concepts more analytically, and be less moved by the colorful imagery of religious narratives.

Esoteric concepts and practices, while not religion, can work similarly. And post 1899 modern magic is very analytically coded. We don't talk about "faith" much here. We here are also a bit different, having personal lived experiences of magic, the paranormal, and the uncanny in any number of frameworks.

I also agree sociological factors are most likely are more of an indicator. But I also don't think anyone is nudged into atheism, at least not in the West. It's the default starting viewpoint / arbitrator of reality. Nobody is advocating for a new Children's Crusade, or learning to walk on water. That would be nuts!

Without making a value judgement if this is even desirable, the question maybe should be less "How do people become atheists?"- we all already are at some level, but more "What specific, sustained efforts are required to maintain religious belief against the grain of our standard operating assumptions about reality as expressed in scientific materialism?"

Not that I think that more religiosity is 100% great either.

 

[8Lou1]

imho one needs something to see in order to see. so if and when there is no one or thing that is willing to look me in the eye, how the hell would my eye see something. i also have come to the realization tru living life that knowing doesnt make an atheist, it makes one blind to what already is known.

i dare to say that meeting in the astral is like saying i looked you in the eyes and saw your soul and that that act alone heals the aphantasia.

 

[FireBorn]

Question for everyone to sit with about Aphantasia. Why is there a knee-jerk reaction to it as if there is something wrong? Like its something to be fixed? Is it an assumption that its wrong, or something is broken?

I liken it to the reactions to Neurodivergence. "Be more like us" is the general tone around ND from society as a whole, I see that in parts of this thread. What if those with Aphantasia see more clearly into the spirit realm because of Aphantasia? Just like a lot of Neurodivergents can get into magickal trance faster and easier than Neurotypicals can. It isn't something to be fixed because there is nothing wrong. Just a difference in wiring in the brain. Different, not broken.

The only thing wrong here just might be the assumptions.

This is magick man, fuck the idea of norms and normal. If you think you are normal, you aren't looking hard enough in the mirror.

 

[KjEno186]

"What specific, sustained efforts are required to maintain religious belief against the grain of our standard operating assumptions about reality as expressed in scientific materialism?"

I think religion needs to be separated from belief. Religion is the old-fashioned form of identity politics, being able to virtue-signal to one's social network that one is part of the "in group", so to speak.

"When you pray, believe that you have already received, and it will be yours." Jesus wasn't demanding that one follow a convoluted religious law code. It was, however, a matter of faith, the ability to imagine a reality not beheld by the senses, that one's imagination could bring about one's desires. This is contrary to both religion and materialism because it implies that neither are actually true. What good are priesthoods if each of us has the power of god? Is faith not considered foolishness by scientific materialism?

The practical application of the occult is how to manifest belief. "My Kingdom is no part of this world." The consensus reality bubble seems quite powerful, and much of a magician's work is finding a balance between personal and group reality... if that makes any sense.

It isn't something to be fixed because there is nothing wrong.

Exactly. Do what works for you. Consensus reality is always attempting to make us feel defective. Then it provides 'solutions' to 'fix' us.

 

[zamradiel]

I experience perception from an external vantage--a simultaneous first- and third-person awareness where I both inhabit and observe myself in real time. Consciousness bifurcates: I live the moment and watch it from the wings, an observer inside my own narrative.

Does anyone else experience this?

 

[MorganBlack]

I have always thought magic, and by that I mean sorcery, not mysticism is very back-of-head. (hehe! Back of house, lol where your dinner gets made.) The two faculties of visualization HellenaHex outlines maps so well here.

I think we've over-focused on the deliberative use of visualization too much, and which is an artifact of Golden Dawn and Masonic style magic. All the banners, pillars, visualizing pentagrams, assumption of god-forms all comes from the G.D.

They have a place but were made very central, becasue they were making something new, with no inner contacts. So they did what any cult would do - make astral forms (egregores, a word I've become low-level irritated by recently) in the hope to make contact with the intelligences, powers, and forces. (Turiel once said it takes tens years to do this from scratch. Maybe? Dunno.)

But I think that changes once contact is made. Or you are working in an already alive 'mythstream' (my word for a live current +narrative + allies) that already has resident daimons and allies.

I don't think I am revealing any real secrets, but Vodou says the lwa possess people through the base of the skull. I was told this at a Vodou fete when I mentioned to a Haitian hougan I felt like the back of my head was being attacked and hammered on. I was not ready to be possessed so leaned away from it. Not that technique is without merit in some other ritual contexts, I certainly was not visualizing Ogou Ferray, or whomever, or assuming him as a G.D. god-form.

 

[zamradiel]

From my own experience:

There's a point in practice where visual navigation collapses. Where you stop seeing and start sensing space through resonance. It's less image, more echolocation; the field returns sound instead of form. The mind still orients, but not with eyes.

That "back-of-head" region you mention is fascinating in this context. Crowley called it the seat of sexual current; the generative hinge between instinct and thought. In subtle anatomy it sits right behind the Vishuddha current (often mapped at the throat but extending posteriorly), where expression and impulse interface.

When the visual current folds, awareness tends to slide backward into that zone - not regression, but re-rooting. It's like the body reclaims navigation duties from the intellect. What you call the "back-of-house" suddenly is the house: the kitchen where perception cooks itself into form.

I have always thought magic, and by that I mean sorcery, not mysticism is very back-of-head. (hehe! Back of house, lol where your dinner gets made.) The two faculties of visualization HellenaHex outlines maps so well here.

I think we've over-focused on the deliberative use of visualization too much, and which is an artifact of Golden Dawn and Masonic style magic. All the banners, pillars, visualizing pentagrams, assumption of god-forms all comes from the G.D.

They have a place but were made very central, becasue they were making something new, with no inner contacts. So they did what any cult would do - make astral forms (egregores, a word I've become low-level irritated by recently) in the hope to make contact with the intelligences, powers, and forces. (Turiel once said it takes tens years to do this from scratch. Maybe? Dunno.)

But I think that changes once contact is made. Or you are working in an already alive 'mythstream' (my word for a live current +narrative + allies) that already has resident daimons and allies.

I don't think I am revealing any real secrets, but Vodou says the lwa possess people through the base of the skull. I was told this at a Vodou fete when I mentioned to a Haitian hougan I felt like the back of my head was being attacked and hammered on. I was not ready to be possessed so leaned away from it. Not that technique is without merit in some other ritual contexts, I certainly was not visualizing Ogou Ferray, or whomever, or assuming him as a G.D. god-form.

 

[AlfrunGrima]

I wish I could find back the study about aphantasia that I have read a while ago. The take away message from that study was that the brains of someone with aphantasia who are trying to visualize something, have alterations in connectivity between the frontoparietal and visual networks which may provide the neural substrate for extreme variations in visual imagery. But, the good news is that the brain is still very active in other brain parts. So while they see noting, their brains still processes a lot of information while visualizing. So the idea is that visualizing things is still very functional, although not seen by the minds eye.

In 2024 in Plymouth (Jonathan Rodes) there was a study in which they found 27 of 300 participators with aphantasia. However after following a 6 week training program the vast majority improved and was able to see things with there minds eye. So that training can improve it, is not a strange idea.

 

[HellenaHex]

I wish I could find back the study about aphantasia that I have read a while ago. The take away message from that study was that the brains of someone with aphantasia who are trying to visualize something, have alterations in connectivity between the frontoparietal and visual networks which may provide the neural substrate for extreme variations in visual imagery. But, the good news is that the brain is still very active in other brain parts. So while they see noting, their brains still processes a lot of information while visualizing. So the idea is that visualizing things is still very functional, although not seen by the minds eye.

In 2024 in Plymouth (Jonathan Rodes) there was a study in which they found 27 of 300 participators with aphantasia. However after following a 6 week training program the vast majority improved and was able to see things with there minds eye. So that training can improve it, is not a strange idea.

Improvement is dependent on where on the aphantasia scale a person falls. If you go to aphantasia.com you can learn about it. But basically if you fall on the 0 range there is no improving that and they tell you not to stress yourself about it because it’s bad for one’s mental health. For those in the higher ranges they have suggestions for how to improve visuals. Plus there are multiple types that affect sound, taste, scent, and sensation memories also. I unfortunately fall into the 0 Range on all types of aphantasia. They do surveys there for those with it, scientific studies, write scientific articles on it, are trying to fund research into it, and they have counselors to help those with it who are emotionally hurting because they aren’t experiencing what everyone else gets to.

 

[weirdbird]

I wish I could find back the study about aphantasia that I have read a while ago. The take away message from that study was that the brains of someone with aphantasia who are trying to visualize something, have alterations in connectivity between the frontoparietal and visual networks which may provide the neural substrate for extreme variations in visual imagery. But, the good news is that the brain is still very active in other brain parts. So while they see noting, their brains still processes a lot of information while visualizing. So the idea is that visualizing things is still very functional, although not seen by the minds eye.

In 2024 in Plymouth (Jonathan Rodes) there was a study in which they found 27 of 300 participators with aphantasia. However after following a 6 week training program the vast majority improved and was able to see things with there minds eye. So that training can improve it, is not a strange idea.

I believe I have

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you are referring to. The underlying issue here is, the Psi-Q test they were using to determine aphantasia in this research is, in essence, a slightly more convoluted version of the "imagine an apple" test floating around the internet. They did not have a control group either, which makes me extremely skeptical of their results.

 

[Morell]

I believe I have

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you are referring to. The underlying issue here is, the Psi-Q test they were using to determine aphantasia in this research is, in essence, a slightly more convoluted version of the "imagine an apple" test floating around the internet. They did not have a control group either, which makes me extremely skeptical of their results.

How would you choose control group for this kind of research?

 

[weirdbird]

How would you choose control group for this kind of research?

In my opinion, they should've separated their aphantasiac athletes into two equal groups, one should've undergone their Functional Imagery Training, and the other one should've been the control group doing some form of fake FIT instead.

 

[Konsciencia]

I have great imaginations. However, at this point I am seeing faded images. Not that I am losing sight of my visualizations. But due to my Dark Night of the Soul. It's part of the process I am going through.

 

[MorganBlack]

Projective imagination, whatever we call it, is just another day at the studio, and has never felt magical to me. It's my job. Dreams, now that, yes.

A few years ago I was sitting in my living room with a clairvoyant pagan friend. We were talking about a road trip. I turned to a blank wall and projected a map of the country so I could plan. Like a control panel in a sci-fi movie. He jumped up, shocked, and said he had only met a couple of people who could do that. I was like , "What? This is just my standard MO. Big whoop."

I did all the G.D. visualization of circles and pentagrams. Never got much out of it. I think now it has to be paired with a sense of awe, or some other emotion, like you are "doing something magical."

It was only later with Neville Goddard New Thought did I put the two together, the VR room I can project, coupled my inner feelings... that sense of it just being so "fiat est" .... that works great. I also suspect the projected images are not really the thing... that inner sense of meaning is, or is a big part of it.

FYI: Neville technique is making a scene where you are in an immersive FPS video game experiencing the thing you want from a dreamy, drowsy hypnagogic state. You are to take it seriously and feel all the emotions you would have being there.

I will add, when working in an animist context calling daimons, near the end I will usually reinforce my spoken conjurations by projecting to them a fully projected scene of the end result of what I want them to accomplish for me, just to they can see it in the astral laser-light show.

 

[ModernAlchemist]

Loving this discussion. In particular:

Question for everyone to sit with about Aphantasia. Why is there a knee-jerk reaction to it as if there is something wrong? Like its something to be fixed? Is it an assumption that its wrong, or something is broken?

I think that's a very fruitful place to begin with when it comes to magic. As a ton of other folks have said on these forums, practicing magic is like appreciating art - what happens behind the ears and eyes of the operator IS the magic. And if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean you are broken. I happen to be one of the folks with a very difficult time visualizing internally, but its properly a VISUAL thing rather than a lack of ability to internally and abstractly create something. (I can often feel a shape, or sense the angle of curves of an imagined object, and know its color. I just don't see that color). So 100%, my expereince is that aphantasia is more of a scale for me, and my brain definately fires off something but not what many others appear to expereince.

And I can't help but comment on the obvious - if a religion requires the skill of visualization / minds eye to affirm belief, then it's the constructs of that reliegion are the problem. I get it that many religions probably key off the same statistically frequent human tendancies, but I'm into non-orthodox paths of enlightenement for a reason.

From my own experience:

There's a point in practice where visual navigation collapses. Where you stop seeing and start sensing space through resonance. It's less image, more echolocation; the field returns sound instead of form. The mind still orients, but not with eyes.

Now this is my jam; echolocation. I never knew I was a bat; but 100% I am. Thanks for using that word, it lighten my whole day up