Moderately More Catholic and "Abrahamist" Grimoire Evocation

[MorganBlack]

When I brought this weak link in his reasoning up to him, he had absolutely no response other than to ridicule me, sic his sycophants on me, and block me

Daamn. Really? That makes me sad. I interacted with Jake on Yahoo forums way back when, but I never paid much attention to online chatter until WF.

What was going on there? I remember he was rather critical the Demonalotry folks and S. Connolly around 2009 so, after T.G. came out, but looking back, it may have been a certain level of envy even in those early days. And even then they only numbered in the dozens at the time. His comments on BALG 'dark fluff' was great, though.

He would talk abut the usefulness of New World Sorcery approaches to goetia, like those in Kimbanda and Vodou. I know he knew very well that in Vodou the Lwa and saints are not worshiped (and yes, not all the saints are masks, as many modern pagans think. The lwa are not even gods as they also think). That is Catholic orthodoxy in action in an animist context.

In his posthumously published Cyprian's Office of Spirts (2024) JSK caught me by surprise how worshipful his gortia practice was, with this section in the very last chapter.

"It's a well-worn trope that the Early Church identified pagan gods with
demons. Meanwhile I have a virtual pantheon of spirits who subjectively at
least, frame my magical reality. Particularly in the case of the major ones, I
consider them worthy of respect and honour, or to put it another way
'worship', or to offer 'cult honours' to.

Essentially, they are my gods; although of course my role as a magician
is more active than that of a religious person. They are not just 'my gods'
either, subjectively speaking they are THE gods. Were communication
simpler, I might – as done in the past – compare mine with those of others,
but that's a step too far for the present. Nevertheless, my relations with
them do amount to that, and I eventually saw that was the case."

- Cyprian's Offices of Spirits

I was a bit disappointed to read that. At the same time in his prior book. The Sworn and Secret Grimoire , he had just made a Christian grimoire for the Olympic spirits, which I took for a certain level of acquiescence to the shamanic executive role the historican magician takes. part of Vodou and New World Sorcery is directing the lwa and zombis (morts). I'd say the grims advise the same stance culttural contexts, and employs the carrot and the stick.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 9:17 PM

 

[Asteriskos]

The whole thesis JSK puts out in his "True" "Grimoire" is absolute bunk. If Western spirit magick was about cuddling with demons and worshipping them, and the demons/spirits are all our besties in waiting, then why does the Liber Juratus instruct the operator to make a circle composed of 12 swords standing around him? When I brought this weak link in his reasoning up to him, he had absolutely no response other than to ridicule me, sic his sycophants on me, and block me.

Thanks for voicing your perspective and experience on JSK here. I've seen several other folks express similar encounters with other "esoteric" authors, always a surprise (and disappointing) to me. If their books inspire an image of the author, the human frailties can sometimes be a real wake up! IMO there is never justification to come across like that, especially toward someone asking for simple clarification.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

The whole thesis JSK puts out in his "True" "Grimoire" is absolute bunk. If Western spirit magick was about cuddling with demons and worshipping them, and the demons/spirits are all our besties in waiting, then why does the Liber Juratus instruct the operator to make a circle composed of 12 swords standing around him? When I brought this weak link in his reasoning up to him, he had absolutely no response other than to ridicule me, sic his sycophants on me, and block me. Grimoire tradition is 100% Christian (though how Catholic later grimoires are is a matter of discussion. Lemegeton and KoS don't invoke Jesus, per example and seem a lot more oriented towards pseudo-Jewish Prot LARPing), and any supposed Hellenic holdovers are accidents of the process of the transference of knowledge.

That being said, Catholicism is the only Western religious system that really has the breadth of scope to allow for magick to be practiced in a way that doesn't go against the religion itself. Understanding that there are laws of Nature that God established that we just don't fully get yet, but that it isn't forbidden to utilize them insofar as we do not idolize them or render them supernatural (in the theological sense of the term, that is powers beyond nature which belong exclusively to God), is really only an idea in Catholicism. Protestants will throw the condemnations in Scripture of witchcraft and whatnot from Deuteronomy and Corinthians at you, while Catholics will go and ask St. Anthony to help them find their wallets and not worry about whatever you're doing so long as you're not too loud about it.

My friend, let's not presume to fully understand how demons attempt to seduce humans into changing their beliefs. However, I agree that any practitioner who enters the sphere of Western ceremonial magic is immediately noticed by these entities.

Their seduction typically comes in two forms: either through false promises of power and wealth, or through genuine torment, pain, psychological manipulation, and a kind of 'Black Reverse Psychology' aimed at submission.

The quickest and easiest self-defense is indeed to abstain from unnecessary communion and maintain an intellectual detachment to prevent oneself from becoming their servant. The truth is exactly aligned with your reference to the '12 Swords' surrounding the operator—demons are treacherous and delight in tormenting the weak.

Crucially, I am not referring to physical or psychological weakness, but rather the most severe kind: weakness of faith. When one's faith in the existence of the Creator weakens, and one rejects Him (commits kufr), they truly lose their ultimate defender. This concept perfectly supports the necessity of the Christian framework inherent in the classic Grimoire tradition that you rightly mentioned.

Therefore, the claims made by JSK about "cuddling with demons" are dangerous bunk precisely because they ignore the protective measures demanded by texts like the Liber Juratus, measures based on the understanding that these entities seek to exploit our spiritual fragility, not befriend us.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 11:37 PM

I really can’t speak to the Protestant or Islamic approaches to God or Solomonic Magic becasue those are not my background. I also don't use Protestant magic texts - and there are so very few of them, like Dee's Enochian system, or Paracelsus' mystical Methodist system, nor the Islamic ones.

From an outsider's perpective both appear very similar to each other is apprach and attitude, rather uncomfortable with the sublunar world, and lack key parts of a sublunar theology. Both onsider the daimons to completely be 100% los diablos, devils. Okay. A bit aggro up front. There is a place for maximum agressiveness, but Catholic approach usually attracts them with honey first.

My maternal side of the family is Mexican-American Catholic. My ancestors were from N.E. coastal Mexico state of Veracruz, and I am of indigenous and Spanish descent. The Mexican Catholicism I know - and there are many of what work functionally as as a variety of different 'Catholicisms' - is almost totally different from Irish Catholicism’s "Pray, pay, and obey" mentality. We are much more about forming alliances with powerful intercessory dead: the saints. Sure, there is still a wariness when approaching the daimonic, but not the same degree of abject fear and hostility as more strict faiths.

So if you're Catholic, you simply exist within a Catholic universe. Everything in the universe is Catholic. I know this is considered problematic in today's more inclusive times, but if it helps, think of this as an operative myth rather than a truth statment of fact. All spirits bow before God, and the Virgin is the Queen of Heaven. After Christ descended into Hades, the Virgin became the Empress of Hell.

A middling intro to Mary as Queen of Heaven and Empress of Hell:

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This has more than a modicum of bearing on the practice of Folk Catholic Goetia, but these is not time nor space. For those seeking an introduction to the depths of Catholic mysticism, I highly recommend the work of "W" at St. Anthony’s Tongue. While "W" operates outside the formal Church bureaucracy, his insights remain firmly rooted in orthodox Catholic mystical theology, and theosis.

More importantly for the practicing magician, his work is a great place to lean about the concept of and practice of theosis - the process of transformative union with the Divine. It is a bit of a historical irony that Left-Hand Path practitioners and Satanists have attempted to claim "self-divinization" as their own invention, when in reality, they stole the blueprints from us. (I say that while shaking my fist - mostly in jest!).

On a theological level I'm certainly not trying to convert anyone. However, on a practical, operative level, the Catholic mystical tradition is an invaluable resource. I It offers a sophisticated approach for learning how to pray with efficacy and intention. These practices are an exellent of re-introducing English speakers to a "hidden" mystical tradition of the West, that they prviously sought in Hinduismm or other practices from far away culturesm or hallucinated academic reonsonstructive effort at idealized histories.

The excellent and kind "W" of Sr. Anthony's Tongue.

Magnificat! Episode One: What is Mysticism?

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How the Saints Felt God (and What It Means for Us)

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Catholic Mysticism for the Everyday Soul: Daily Practices for Union with God

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Mystic Catholicism vs. Modern Catholicism

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And just beacsue this terrible form of modern Catholcism is mutating on YouTube to herd people with fear about demons to monetize them. This is the Noble Lie. "Well, if it helps the find God,then this is really a good thing."

Are Exorcists Making Us Fear Demons More Than God? How Pop Demonology Makes You Scrupulous.

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Hello MorganBlack,

I appreciate your nuanced and historically rich commentary, particularly your insight into Folk Catholicism's operative reality—the capacity to form alliances with powerful Intercessors like the Saints and the Virgin Mary as Empress of Hell. That system's efficacy is undeniable within its own cosmic framework.

However, as a Muslim, my operative myth and theological framework offer a simpler, yet infinitely more protected, path that directly addresses the dangers you and Cormundum discussed.

The Core Difference: Intercession vs. Direct Submission (Tawhid)
You eloquently describe the power of the Catholic system as being built on Intercession (Saints, Mary). In the Islamic tradition (Tawhid, the absolute Oneness of God), we believe the ultimate power and protection lie in Direct Submission (Islam) to the Creator alone, without any intermediary.

The Angels/Saints/Daimons: For us, Angels are beings of light and perfect obedience to God (Allah). Saints are pious humans whose intercession is fundamentally a matter of faith, not a magical operation. As for the Daimons (Jinn/Shayatin)—they are purely creatures of disobedience and temptation, subject absolutely to the Creator's will.

The Empress of Hell (Al-Malika): The concept of any creature (even the Virgin Mary, whom we highly revere as Maryam) holding dominion over Hell or the forces of darkness is a theological impossibility for us. All dominion (Malik) belongs to God alone. Iblis (Satan) is merely a prisoner on a long leash, allowed by divine decree to test us.

The Superiority of Absolute Faith (The Strongest Defense)
You spoke of the practical benefits of the Catholic approach. Our spiritual practice offers the ultimate practical defense, which aligns perfectly with my prior point about the Weakness of Faith:

The Liber Juratus' twelve swords are a symbol of necessary defense because the practitioner’s faith is weak or divided (relying on intermediaries).

For a Muslim engaged in high spiritual practice, the shield is not the 12 Swords or the Empress of Hell; it is the Absolute Oneness of God.

If the heart is unified (free of Shirk, or polytheism/idolatry), no Daemonic force can establish a foothold.

When we address the Jinn or the Shayatin, we do so not by invoking an alliance or an Intercessor, but by invoking the Authority of the One God that all spirits—Angels, Jinn, or demons—must ultimately obey. This is the True Authority which grants control, not complex ritual fortifications.

The concept of Theosis—the transformative union with the Divine—is the core of our mystical path (Tasawwuf). But we believe this union is achieved purely through surrender, devotion, and following the Divine Law, not through leveraging the hierarchy of the sublunar world.

In our view, the Catholic structure, while powerful, is a brilliant system of necessary compensation for the compromise inherent in using Intercessors, whereas the Islamic framework, focused solely on the Creator, offers the direct, unassailable line of protection and power.

 

[MorganBlack]

The concept of Theosis—the transformative union with the Divine—is the core of our mystical path (Tasawwuf). But we believe this union is achieved purely through surrender, devotion, and following the Divine Law, not through leveraging the hierarchy of the sublunar world.

Respect to you and yours, Angelkesfarl, but you're making a common but fundamentally mistaken claim about Catholic metaphysics and practice. Catholic theurgy explicitly engages and commands the sublunar sphere through sacramental theology and hierarchical cosmology. The Catholic understanding is that God entered materiality and the sublunar world directly through the Incarnation. This sanctified the entire cosmic hierarchy from the supralunar spheres down through the sublunar world.

I get the Islamic framework actually prohibits this kind of material leverage precisely because it maintains strict divine transcendence. Muslims can't have relics that work ex opere operato because that would suggest divine power residing in created things. We will have to agree to disagree here.

The Catholic cosmic hierarchy works like - (similar, or exactly like) - the Neoplatonic Chain of Manifestation:
God
Christ
Mary
The Angels
The Saints
Planetary Intelligences
Sublunar Spirits

We're not bypassing God, we're working through the established cosmic order that God Himself instituted. The Catholic magician has operational control over both angelic and demonic forces through the hierarchical structur., so when a Catholic conjurer commands a spirit "By the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," we're invoking the entire hierarchical chain down to the sublunar realm. The grimoires make this explicit - spirits are commanded through the authority granted to humans as made in God's image, through Christ's Harrowing of Hell, through the angelic governors, and God's love for us. This is direct engagement with the sublunar world backed by supralunar authority.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

Respect to you and yours, Angelkesfarl, but you're making a common but fundamentally mistaken claim about Catholic metaphysics and practice. Catholic theurgy explicitly engages and commands the sublunar sphere through sacramental theology and hierarchical cosmology. The Catholic understanding is that God entered materiality and the sublunar world directly through the Incarnation. This sanctified the entire cosmic hierarchy from the supralunar spheres down through the sublunar world.

I get the Islamic framework actually prohibits this kind of material leverage precisely because it maintains strict divine transcendence. Muslims can't have relics that work ex opere operato because that would suggest divine power residing in created things. We will have to agree to disagree here.

The Catholic cosmic hierarchy works like - (similar, or exactly like) - the Neoplatonic Chain of Manifestation:
God
Christ
Mary
The Angels
The Saints
Planetary Intelligences
Sublunar Spirits

We're not bypassing God, we're working through the established cosmic order that God Himself instituted. The Catholic magician has operational control over both angelic and demonic forces through the hierarchical structur., so when a Catholic conjurer commands a spirit "By the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," we're invoking the entire hierarchical chain down to the sublunar realm. The grimoires make this explicit - spirits are commanded through the authority granted to humans as made in God's image, through Christ's Harrowing of Hell, through the angelic governors, and God's love for us. This is direct engagement with the sublunar world backed by supralunar authority.

The Hierarchy of Creation and the Essence of Sorcery: A Philosophical Intersection
The fundamental concepts in these discussions are clearly derived from religion, and those who follow them cannot easily deny this.

In Islam, the view is distinct: we assert that the Divine is not material (not physically embodied) to connect with matter. We entirely negate any material concept of God, including incarnation and union. Excuse me if my words translate poorly, but association with the Divine Person is impossible because God is transcendent (Muta'ali) above all things; He is simply greater than anything else. In Islamic thought, God needs nothing because He is self-sufficient and complete. He requires no one's permission and sacrifices nothing for anyone.

But let me step slightly outside this frame of reference: In the magical world, what existed before Christ?

I will not argue that the Virgin Mary’s descent into Hell is merely a re-production of the Isis concept, nor will I claim that Horus and Osiris embody the oldest form of the Trinitarian meaning. Instead, I will turn directly to the concept of Hierarchy (The Gnostic/Hermetic Principle).

The Human Blueprint: Form and Matter (Sura and Hayula)
In our tradition, there is the Transcendent God and Humanity, with the rest of creation in between. Humankind was created in the image of God. However, let me propose that in ancient times, the use of the words Sura (Image/Form) and Hayula (Matter/Hyle) meant:

Sura (Image) = Idea/Concept.

Hayula (Hyle) = Body/Matter.

Therefore, man was created according to a conceptual pattern derived from the Divine. God created Adam in His image, meaning Adam possesses creative powers such as balanced thought, the capacity for invention, the ability to influence the material world, and the power to innovate.

In our tradition, and among the ancestral Kabbalists, the human being contains a Soul (Ruh). The Soul, in its definition, is a "breath from the Divine." It is not a part, but something we are ignorant of, as the Soul belongs to the knowledge of God. This Soul distinguishes itself from the souls of all other beings because it possesses something of the Divine Gift that allows it to connect directly with God and the body. This connection grants humanity a unique, distinguishing power.

The human Self (Nafs) is, in the Arabic definition, the result of the soul's interaction with the body. From this interaction, the non-perishable human consciousness emerges.

Magic vs. Divine Will
Sorcery (Magic) is communication not with the Divine Aspect, but with a perverted application of this aspect—by demanding the creation of entities or objects, or by influencing others against their will. Even the subjugation of the devils (Shayatin) is influence against their will. Influencing the Angels in any manner would likewise deviate the human being against the Angels’ own will. Coercion is the true essence of magic.

Otherwise, simply pray to God and supplicate, but do not command Him or expect Him to fulfill your every wish, because He is Wise, and your wisdom is deficient, as your limited mind and comprehension—no matter how vast—will never encompass the future as a whole.

The Hierarchy of Authority
Let me return to the hierarchy. This sequence implies that God granted humanity authority: that man is God's Caliph (Vicegerent) on Earth. Through this Divine gift, humanity is guaranteed the means to communicate with and influence anything and everything. Pay close attention to this point.

How does man gain strength? He then relies, based on this given authority, on the power of the two Angels Harut and Marut and the rest of their hidden magical hierarchy. But observe: all angelic names, across all books and beliefs, are divided into three types:

Angels serving God: Humans have absolutely no authority over them; these are the High Presence Angels.

Angels of the Lower Heaven ("The Cosmos"): Humans have authorities over them, but not directly, only through prayer and the Divine Names themselves. Review Western magic; no matter how the forms change, they ultimately revert to the power of Divine Names.

The Fiery Jinn (Al-Jinn An-Nari): Here, the powers derived from the science of letters, numbers, and astrology begin to appear. The Jinn are fundamentally subject to the forces of magic only to be acquired, and this acquisition cannot be achieved except by swearing the oath upon the magic tablet (Al-Balata As-Sihriya) before the two Angels, Harut and Marut.

So, who are Metatron, Sandalphon, etc.? Search for the answer within yourself. Are the Angels of the Shem HaMephorash a complete human invention? With complete honesty, look at the second verse—why was it inverted? You will understand...

I am tired of writing here, but not tired of explaining. I hope my words in this scholarly debate do not offend anyone, just as no one's beliefs have offended me. I believe it is my right to write what I believe, and for you to look at what I write and see what lies behind it. Is it rational that all these alleged gods are real? Then who created the cosmos and the universes beyond it? Zeus, Shiva, Amun, or Ahura Mazda? Or are they all creations of humans, or entities that usurped divinity merely because they possess some power?

 

[MorganBlack]

I will not argue that the Virgin Mary’s descent into Hell is merely a re-production of the Isis concept

Re: Mary, Isis. Sure, I know history, and so in kind I will not retort that Muhammad's revelations and Joseph Smith's golden plates of Moroni revelations in Mormonism both fall into the category of unverifiable religious claims that either you accept on faith or you don't. Or that Islamic claims to theological superiority are just as much faith-based assertions as any other religion's.

That said, I agree with God we don't need sublunar spirits to create the miracles we all loosely call "magic" here for some reason (which I take issue with). Sorcery is sorcery, and miracles (Magic as a Sacred science) are miracles. I also have a lot of respect for Sufism, which I see reflected in New Thought practices I enjoy. I'd like to get you opinion these eventually (below) , but really, why are you hanging out with sorcerers trafficking with 'unclean' spirits at all, Angelkesfarl?

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[cormundum]

Thanks for voicing your perspective and experience on JSK here. I've seen several other folks express similar encounters with other "esoteric" authors, always a surprise (and disappointing) to me. If their books inspire an image of the author, the human frailties can sometimes be a real wake up! IMO there is never justification to come across like that, especially toward someone asking for simple clarification.

Oh don't even get me started on Leitch (threw me out of his group for trying to ask questions and discuss Solomonic magick that didn't just lead to generating sales for his books/courses), Miller, RO, all those guys. The only decent one of the lot as far as I'm concerned is Imperial Arts.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

Re: Mary, Isis. Sure, I know history, and so in kind I will not retort that Muhammad's revelations and Joseph Smith's golden plates of Moroni revelations in Mormonism both fall into the category of unverifiable religious claims that either you accept on faith or you don't. Or that Islamic claims to theological superiority are just as much faith-based assertions as any other religion's.

That said, I agree with God we don't need sublunar spirits to create the miracles we all loosely call "magic" here for some reason (which I take issue with). Sorcery is sorcery, and miracles (Magic as a Sacred science) are miracles. I also have a lot of respect for Sufism, which I see reflected in New Thought practices I enjoy. I'd like to get you opinion these eventually (below) , but really, why are you hanging out with sorcerers trafficking with 'unclean' spirits at all, Angelkesfarl?

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Hello MorganBlack,

Your opening statement—placing the Qur'anic revelation alongside Joseph Smith's Golden Plates as "unverifiable religious claims"—is a fair challenge from a purely secular academic perspective. I respect the intellectual honesty of that premise.

However, from an operative, historical, and theological standpoint, the comparison collapses immediately, and this is where faith must engage with history: The rigor with which the truth of the Abrahamic tradition is presented and preserved is not equal to later, localized claims.

Ultimately, yes, all theology is based on an assertion of absolute truth that requires faith. However, the rigor with which that truth is presented and preserved is not equal.

The Purpose of Engagement: Beyond Unclean Spirits
You ask a profound and crucial question: "Why are you hanging out with sorcerers trafficking with 'unclean' spirits at all, Angelkesfarl?"

My presence here is justified not merely by absolute faith, but by a conviction that there are superior pathways than merely following the devils of sorcery, or attempting to court their favour or worship them—actions utterly rejected and universally condemned by all Abrahamic faiths that recognize the existence of the Absolute True God.

My rationale for engagement is multi-layered:

1. Know Your Enemy (Theological Mandate):
The Qur'an dedicates specific verses to the nature of the Shayatin (devils) and Sihr (sorcery), as we discussed with Surah Al-Baqarah 102. If we are warned against an existential danger, it is a spiritual necessity to understand its mechanism and its blueprint. Studying the methods of Sihr is not an endorsement; it is a vital part of spiritual defense.

2. Disarmament Through Gnosis:
The practitioners on this forum are actively dealing with the tools of the Adversary. By analyzing these texts (Goetia, Solomonic Keys, Arabic Magic) through the lens of absolute Tawhid (Monotheism), we are essentially disarming the knowledge. We strip the ritual of its false theological claims and expose its true mechanism: coercion via the weaknesses of the human self. My presence is an exercise in deconstructing the architecture of the Shadow so that others may see the safer, superior path of direct submission (Tawhid/Sufism).

3. Cultural and Intellectual Engagement:
In Islam, there are verses that urge us to hold fast to our faith while simultaneously not transgressing against the beliefs of others. We display our faith because others do not conceal theirs, but speak of it openly. My goal is cultural interaction, which generates the spark of knowledge.

4. The Grand Purpose: Elevating Human Welfare
I possess inherited secrets and knowledge, and what I publish here is driven by a core principle: cultural friction that generates the spark of knowledge must strive, by its scientific nature, to raise the prospects for human societal welfare. This requires conscious engagement, disciplined knowledge, accelerating intellectual output, and reducing the rates of spiritual failure. This necessitates disciplined work on multiple levels and cultural openness to different traditions.

However, in the field of application, we must separate Religion as a legitimate, legislative authority from attempts to coercively imbue objects with sanctity. Instead, we must return to the essential, Philosophical Triad: God (The Absolute), Man (The Vicegerent), and The Cosmos (The Manifestation). This triad is, as we perceive it, the core essence of any worldly, spiritual, or even magical operation.

Thank you for your bold question, my friend. May this day be a happy one, followed by happier days.

I would indeed be honored to discuss Sufism and New Thought practices when you are ready.

Angelkesfarl