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Difference between angels and demons

iseht

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In occultism what is the difference between angels and demons?
Whether It is difference in appearance or nature, Offering or work field?
If both are helpful and give assistance in magic, why they are mentioned as different entities?
In spritual world how they behave differently ?
As with all things its been my experience that these being, and others, all live on a gradient. The Angels that Dee and Kelley spoke with may have been angels, but they very clearly also seemed to be tricksters. Demon's in disguise? Dee began to feel that the ones they were contacting were diabolical in nature.Or is it that there is in fact no such distinction between the two and they are simply beings living across the same gradient of good and evil that humans occupy?

Likewise Enochian angels are said to be so alien and terrifying that its one of the most feared branches of magic, are they still angels? I have dabbled in this area and found things so unnervingly raw that I could not possibly look further at the time.

This is the distinction drawn in the east, where countless heirarchies exist, each one not so different from its other neighbors. There many be 'demons' that trend towards helpfulness. If we believe that within all of us exists a spark of the divine that returns towards the true one, does that simply fade away never to return if we spend a life time in some minor hell?
 

supremecoyote

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A quote from Crowley himself

"was in the death struggle with self: God and Satan fought for my soul those three long hours. God conquered — now I have only one doubt left — which of the twain was God?"

when referring to Hebrew Lore "Adonai" ..... Adonai and his angels are typically seen as celestial and righteous ( bound to the cosmos ) that operate on higher frequencies. Some "holy" angels however are bound to guard over sheol ( hell ) like Malik and the Zabaniyah, Uriel, Abaddon who is the angel of the "the pit". More complex angels with conflicting lore like Samael ( the accuser / angel of punishment/ angel of death in the Talmud "Good angel tasked with dirty work under Adonai" ) but in Kabbalah he's seen as the consort to Lilith herself and the archenemy of Israel.

Gnostic interpretation of "Adonai" claim that he is a "false ruler" according to the Apocryphon of John. We talk about Archons which rule over the different planets and planes of reality. They function similarly to a prison warden. In Gnostic texts Samael and Adonai are the same entity but different names for " the Demiurge". Adonai is perceived as lower frequency and antagonistic in these texts.

Demons/ Infernals/ Goetia are normally perceived as low vibrational ( bound to Sheoul ). Words like Satan translate to "adversary". Howeverrrrr... Azazel a prominent grigori that corresponds to Saturn and Duedal translates to "scapegoat" ( something to place blame on to ). Azazel's crime against Adonai was educating humanity on weapons, cosmetology, and procreation of the Nephiliem. Azazel is one of the few fallen angels that wasn't exiled to Hell but rather exiled and bound to Dudael ( a desert in the material plane). Lucifer simply questioned his own angelic autonomy against Adonai. Lilith didn't want to be subservient to men. We perceive these demons to be distrustful and deceiving according to Abrahamic lore, however their "crimes" seem rather trivial compared to Adonai's wrath against humanity who has committed genocide, mass smiting of villages and individuals several times. He also cursed the entirety of humanity for one woman simply perceiving knowledge he did not want humanity to perceive. So what did Eve perceive that was so damning to her entire bloodline ?

In my opinion, there is no real distinction between "angels and demons". "God" or "Satan"... as above so below, they're all the same just with different ranks in their respective hierarchy, different correspondences and different ways of being useful to the devotee/ practitioner. Some entities are bound to the cosmos and "heaven" , some bound to Hell, and some bound to the material plane. Which side of the "battle field" is more "trustworthy and honest" to the practitioner is objective and up to the practitioner's discernment.
 

Ziran

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If angels were rare wouldn't it be rare to find someone that works with an angel? Then theres the concept of people having guardian angels and wouldn't that take a lot of angels to do? I'm just kind of confused on that point

Yes. 100%. Each individual has an effluence of vitality in the form of what many call a, singular, "guardian angel" who is "surrounded on all sides" by others, plural, in opposition to it.

"Surrounded on all sides" is in quotes because there are no "sides" in spirit. All is ominpresent and concurrent.

Angels work for free. Demons demand a price.

I agree but I also disagree.

If you have a built connection with them, they won't expect you to give. My demons often did/do more errands for me than I ever asked for, and they never ask anything in return (and they're the ones approaching me first, not the other way around) Our bond is reciprocal without rules or expectations, just like in a healthy relationship (either with a family, a partner, or friends).

Have you ever considered Angels and Demons as a sort of conjoined twins? If I understand, it fits well with what you've written above.

However, I do agree, it's best to offer something to demons if you are unknown to them, and there for 'business', they are not charity; they are low frequency entities, so they won't necessarily can do much with your 'gratitude' and 'happiness' that stems from a fulfilled wish, unlike angels. High frequency energy is rewarding them too, if you're in a positive state, demons are a bit different.

Agreed. For Demons it's not charity. For Angels it is.
 

Firetree

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Discarding all the old definitions and not using daemons for spirits or whatever to cloud the definition.

So starting with a completely new definition without old baggage:
Angels are egregores and aligned with the celestial(The Heavens), demons were angels that were aligned with the celestial but fell out of alignment.

You just baffled me . Discard all the old traditions AND align angels with celestial and call demons fallen angels ????
 

Kepler

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You just baffled me . Discard all the old traditions AND align angels with celestial and call demons fallen angels ????
What baffles you?
Perhaps you could explain yourself.
 

intensity4ever

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Greetings,

I AM thoroughly enjoying the dialogue and conversation, as I am new to these forums. Feels like home! With that being said, I would like to answer the question being posed from a magical sense as far as occultism and advanced demonology. I hope it doesn't veer off subject too much but I just wanted to give a more in-depth response in the event the intention is to eventually utilize these energies for divinatory purposes.

The distinctions between angels and demons extend into the intricacies of magical practices, spiritual hierarchies, and psychological archetypes. Angels are often perceived not merely as passive protectors, but as powerful entities involved in the execution of divine will, whose energies can be harnessed through rigorous ritualistic practices. In the Kabbalistic tradition, for instance, the study of the Tree of Life reveals a complex interplay between angels and the Sefirot, the ten attributes through which the divine manifests. Practitioners invoke angels through intricate rituals that may involve the creation of sacred symbols, talismans, and the recitation of specific divine names, designed to align the practitioner’s intention with the higher frequencies of the angelic realm.

Conversely, the practice of demonology seeks to engage with demons as forces of transformation. Each demon is often associated with specific aspects of human experience—whether it be desire, ambition, or even despair—allowing practitioners to engage with these darker energies in meaningful and transformative ways. For example, the Goetia, a section of the Lesser Key of Solomon, provides detailed descriptions of various demons and their corresponding sigils, which serve as focal points for summoning and communicating with these entities. Unlike traditional depictions of fearfulness, many occultists view demons as possessing specific knowledge about the human condition, and rituals often encourage a dialogue or bargaining process wherein practitioners seek wisdom or power rather than simple subjugation.

The magical practices surrounding both angels and demons involve a unique blend of symbols, correspondences, and personal intent. Rituals may incorporate elements like the use of consecrated tools, sacred geometry, and the invocation of elemental forces, providing a rich framework for engaging with these entities. Practitioners often prepare meticulously, engaging in purification rituals, meditation, and focused intention-setting to create a conducive environment for the energies at play. The ritual space becomes a liminal zone where the practitioner navigates between realms, utilizing the hierarchies of both angels and demons to harness their powers for personal and spiritual development.

Moreover, the psychological implications of such practices cannot be understated. Engaging with demons allows for a profound exploration of the self, as practitioners confront their shadows—those hidden fears and desires that often impede spiritual growth. This process of alchemical transformation—sometimes referred to as the “Great Work” in alchemical traditions—requires deep introspection and a willingness to confront one’s darker aspects while seeking integration and enlightenment. Thus, the practice of deep occultism transcends mere invocation, evolving into a comprehensive journey of self-discovery, empowerment, and the quest for ultimate spiritual truth.

In sum, the engagement with angels and demons in deep occultism is a sophisticated dance of energies that invites exploration and transformation. Through rigorous magical practices, ritualistic precision, and psychological introspection, practitioners navigate these realms to draw upon the profound powers they offer, ultimately aiming for personal and spiritual evolution in the face of duality.

Best,
The Shamanic Unicorn Seer aka "She Who knows".
 

Firetree

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What baffles you?
Perhaps you could explain yourself.

It isnt obvious ? You first said 'to discard all the old traditions ' ... 'new definition' ... ' without old baggage ' and then went on to describe angels as celestial aligned and demons as fallen angels .

In supposedly getting away from old traditions , you stepped right in them .


I would say the Christian Biblical tradition is pretty 'old tradition'; common , prevalent and to a large proportion of people , underpinning their very concepts about such things ; Revelation 12:7–9 and Matthew 25:41. , Book of Enoch - demons ; shedim or mazziqin ' fallen angels ',

Also ; 'Iblis' in Islam , Pre-Judaism Canaanite belief ; '' ... he bənē hāʾĔlōhīm ('sons of God'), expelled from the
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. Hêlêl ben Šāḥar is thrown down from heaven for claiming equality with ʻElyōn .

There are actually too many examples to keep listing ;

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That is what baffled me about your claim that your two ideas were completely new and without old baggage .
 

Kepler

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It isnt obvious ? You first said 'to discard all the old traditions ' ... 'new definition' ... ' without old baggage ' and then went on to describe angels as celestial aligned and demons as fallen angels .

In supposedly getting away from old traditions , you stepped right in them .


I would say the Christian Biblical tradition is pretty 'old tradition'; common , prevalent and to a large proportion of people , underpinning their very concepts about such things ; Revelation 12:7–9 and Matthew 25:41. , Book of Enoch - demons ; shedim or mazziqin ' fallen angels ',

Also ; 'Iblis' in Islam , Pre-Judaism Canaanite belief ; '' ... he bənē hāʾĔlōhīm ('sons of God'), expelled from the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Hêlêl ben Šāḥar is thrown down from heaven for claiming equality with ʻElyōn .

There are actually too many examples to keep listing ;

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


That is what baffled me about your claim that your two ideas were completely new and without old baggage .
I didn't say "discard all old traditions". What I wrote
Discarding all the old definitions
That was later clarified in the same post to mean starting with a clean definition to my model of the hyperdimensional immanent universe. Which I wasn't going to elaborate on beyond mentioning 'egregore' in this thread since I mention the model in many threads.

Reading more carefully may save you from bafflement and what seems like a feeble attempt on your part at a gotcha.
 

Firetree

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I didn't say "discard all old traditions". What I wrote

Well, that was my mistake . Okay lets run with 'discard old definitions ' then .

I quoted wrongly, but now I don't really see how this changes things . What you wrote ARE the old definitions .

What you said in the post , thatI responded to and questioned , was brief and clear . I dont see how my questions do not relate to what you said in that post ?

That was later clarified in the same post to mean starting with a clean definition to my model of the hyperdimensional immanent universe. Which I wasn't going to elaborate on beyond mentioning 'egregore' in this thread since I mention the model in many threads.


Yes, I have read some of them( I think I even liked some of them ) ; still what you described is a traditional definition , regardless if your model ( .. the HIU ) was its source .
Reading more carefully may save you from bafflement and what seems like a feeble attempt on your part at a gotcha.

'' Seems like ''.... okay , if you want to be like that . Actually the reason I assumed MY CONFUSION is I am assuming there is something I dont understand in your post . I have read some of your other posts and thought they had depth and insight , which is why I admitted confusion about this . Otherwise I would have just written you off as a dickhead and not bothered to ask for clarity .

If I had not thought that , I would not have assumed I was confused , but that you were the confused poster .

Since I am still giving you validity , I was hoping you were able to explain to me how I am wrong .
 

Kepler

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What you wrote ARE the old definitions .
No they aren't. That is you misreading and arguing against your own misunderstanding.

Old definitions do not consider them celestial egregores specifically and only in an immanent hyperdimensional model of natural selection. There is no transcendental realm of perfect forms. There are no transcendental realms at all involved in that definition.
 

Firetree

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No they aren't. That is you misreading and arguing against your own misunderstanding.

Old definitions do not consider them celestial egregores specifically and only in an immanent hyperdimensional model of natural selection.

I got that part ....

but I was referring to , as my citations showed ' demons / devils / satan etc ... as fallen angels ' .

You might be attaching your definition of demons , to angels, to egrigores , to your preferred model of the Universe ?
Is that right ?

I am not actually trying to be in conflict with you just seeking understanding .

Sometimes it is hard to interpret a short densely packed post without reference to everything someone else has written , which , considering the amount of valid posters here , is a lot ,for me, to keep in my head .
 

Kepler

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You might be attaching your definition of demons , to angels, to egrigores , to your preferred model of the Universe ?
Is that right ?
That is what "discarding all old definitions" meant when I wrote that in my first post in the thread. Perhaps that could be made clearer if I repeated it a few more times a few different ways.

but I was referring to , as my citations showed ' demons / devils / satan etc ... as fallen angels ' .
There is fallen in the sense of changes in celestial alignment to Earth's seasonal timings to the apparent astronomical background, but also in regards to a modern understanding of natural cosmology. For example, the modern fallen chiefs of the fallen angels are any transcendent god. As there is no reality to those phantasms of the mind.

There is another unaligned that isn't fallen which should be mentioned. The future aligned. The unknown rising angels. These can appear as demons to those trying to hang onto the recently fallen and old systems of thought.
 

Firetree

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No they aren't. That is you misreading and arguing against your own misunderstanding.

Old definitions do not consider them celestial egregores specifically and only in an immanent hyperdimensional model of natural selection. There is no transcendental realm of perfect forms. There are no transcendental realms at all involved in that definition.


Then I have to suppose my corrections ( which you are not addressing ) are correct ;
that is you are using common definitions as I clearly demonstrated , BUT they are in the CONTEXT of your egrigore definition which is not traditional .

If you can at all entertain the possibility that what you wrote and the way you wrote it might be confusing to some that have not comprehended and remembered your whole corpus , you could consider simply noting the condensed ( egrigore ) part with an *

and then

* ... see my post n. for a contextual definition of the terms . ''

yes, it could be be me ... if everyone else found what you wrote in that post clear .
Post automatically merged:

That is what "discarding all old definitions" meant when I wrote that in my first post in the thread. Perhaps that could be made clearer if I repeated it a few more times a few different ways.


There is fallen in the sense of changes in celestial alignment to Earth's seasonal timings to the apparent astronomical background, but also in regards to a modern understanding of natural cosmology. For example, the modern fallen chiefs of the fallen angels are any transcendent god. As there is no reality to those phantasms of the mind.

There is another unaligned that isn't fallen which should be mentioned. The future aligned. The unknown rising angels. These can appear as demons to those trying to hang onto the recently fallen and old systems of thought.

Ahhh ... clarity ! MY above was being posted and edited before I saw this post ^

Thank you for clearing up my misunderstanding .
 

Ohana

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Agreed. For Demons it's not charity. For Angels it is.
Wait if its charity for angels then that has a lot of connections. For one charities are not always helpful to people. Sometimes they assume a need when there isn't one and mess up an economy making stores go out of business.

Do angels assume a need when there isn't one? When I first heard about Angels and all of that I assume if they did exist they wouldn't help people unless necessary or would barely interact with us. And charity assumes people need help. If someone contacts an angel I assume its because they want help but wouldn't technically need it from them. They could technically do their own traditions or help themselves or ask help from people around them.

Charity kind of assumes need. Yeah this is. Hmm.
Post automatically merged:

It also creates a power dynamic typically those who don't need charity and give it are typically wealthy. Those who can't do charity typically are not the wealthy.
Post automatically merged:

But I don't if thats the full picture though because there is reference multiple times to Demon princes or something so I don't know I guess fully. I don't know. But I don't know its something maybe if I look into it more maybe there will be difference like one has teeth other has void thing.
 
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Frater R.P.G.

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I can't speak for everyone, the traditions differ on details. Dividing the human into a body, soul (psyche) and spirit (pneuma), I find that demons are kind of like a psyche without spirit, while angels are more like a spirit without a (permanent) soul. Thus demons can be born from corrupted human souls after death. Consequently, a human come be angelified by getting in touch with their spirit, as Enoch became Metatron.

In practice, working with demons tends to be more chaotic, but very effective. Usually they will require some payment, sometimes upfront. Angels work for free and can also be very effective, but only if your wish is aligned with God's plan. In general if you want a quick and dirty solution to a problem, you go for demons. If you want to improve your life over the long term, you're better off working with angels IMO.
 

greyseraphim

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Angels are more order and structure they will give tou the things you desire structurally and safely.

Demons are a more of a change your circumstances as you want they will give you what you want by force or by chaotic Situations sometimes regardless if your ready. They can sometimes be really gentle as well and build you up use them when you want to make drastic changes to yourself
 

intensity4ever

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Dear Seekers,

This is my inner gnosis and experience as a practitioner:

In the realm of deep occultism and advanced demonology, the distinctions between angels and demons extend into the intricacies of magical practices, spiritual hierarchies, and psychological archetypes. Angels are often perceived not merely as passive protectors, but as powerful entities involved in the execution of divine will, whose energies can be harnessed through rigorous ritualistic practices. In the Kabbalistic tradition, for instance, the study of the Tree of Life reveals a complex interplay between angels and the Sefirot, the ten attributes through which the divine manifests. Practitioners invoke angels through intricate rituals that may involve the creation of sacred symbols, talismans, and the recitation of specific divine names, designed to align the practitioner’s intention with the higher frequencies of the angelic realm.

Conversely, the practice of demonology seeks to engage with demons as forces of transformation. Each demon is often associated with specific aspects of human experience—whether it be desire, ambition, or even despair—allowing practitioners to engage with these darker energies in meaningful and transformative ways. For example, the Goetia, a section of the Lesser Key of Solomon, provides detailed descriptions of various demons and their corresponding sigils, which serve as focal points for summoning and communicating with these entities. Unlike traditional depictions of fearfulness, many occultists view demons as possessing specific knowledge about the human condition, and rituals often encourage a dialogue or bargaining process wherein practitioners seek wisdom or power rather than simple subjugation.

The magical practices surrounding both angels and demons involve a unique blend of symbols, correspondences, and personal intent. Rituals may incorporate elements like the use of consecrated tools, sacred geometry, and the invocation of elemental forces, providing a rich framework for engaging with these entities. Practitioners often prepare meticulously, engaging in purification rituals, meditation, and focused intention-setting to create a conducive environment for the energies at play. The ritual space becomes a liminal zone where the practitioner navigates between realms, utilizing the hierarchies of both angels and demons to harness their powers for personal and spiritual development.

Moreover, the psychological implications of such practices cannot be understated. Engaging with demons allows for a profound exploration of the self, as practitioners confront their shadows—those hidden fears and desires that often impede spiritual growth. This process of alchemical transformation—sometimes referred to as the “Great Work” in alchemical traditions—requires deep introspection and a willingness to confront one’s darker aspects while seeking integration and enlightenment. Thus, the practice of deep occultism transcends mere invocation, evolving into a comprehensive journey of self-discovery, empowerment, and the quest for ultimate spiritual truth.

In sum, the engagement with angels and demons in deep occultism is a sophisticated dance of energies that invites exploration and transformation. Through rigorous magical practices, ritualistic precision, and psychological introspection, practitioners navigate these realms to draw upon the profound powers they offer, ultimately aiming for personal and spiritual evolution in the face of duality.

Much respect,
~The Shamanic Unicorn Seer~
 
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