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Are There any safe Goetia spirits?
- Thread starter Lion
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Any spirit is dangerous if approached wrong. The spirit that finds you approaching them with respect, and without malice might be the one who tends to be the safest. Or at least giving you warning of their disapproval rather than going violent al at once.
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Goetia doesn’t really have ‘safe spirits’.
They work well only if the method is correct — otherwise not much happens or things go wrong. Stability comes more from the technique than from the spirit itself.
They work well only if the method is correct — otherwise not much happens or things go wrong. Stability comes more from the technique than from the spirit itself.
Thanks, I am assuming you mean, by 'correct method' that you use the exact words of the Goetia. There is a tension between the somewhat brutal language aimed at 'forcing' contact and respectful language. Especially if they dont turn up. Do you know of a source for more respctful techniques, or does one have to be tough...
Personally, the "safety" of a spirit depends on more than just assume that the identity of a spirit is the final factor. For me, there are 3 criteria to consider:
Respect:
Others have already mentioned this, but it deserves repeating always. Treating the spirit with respect and consideration get you quite far. You just need to consider the different approaches used in calling the Goetic spirit. The first one is the original method from the Ars Goetia, which uses incantations that demand, curse, and threaten the spirit to show up. While the spirits are not human and should be treated as such, this attitude will infuse an adversarial energy into whatever shows up and maybe it might not be dangerous in the moment, but it may most definitely screw up your results or add an unlucky twist into them.
Now consider the opposite end of the "respect" aspects in demonolatry. Reading the works of individuals such as S. Connolly, you will see that worship, adulation, and even supplication are used in their methods to communicate with the spirit. For some, this can work and you can certainly try it if you want. But the main issue with this form of excessive respect is that these currents invite the spirit far too much into your life. Your energy may co-mingle with theirs more than you want and this can invite their presence beyond the boundaries that you are comfortable with. However, this is more a matter of my opinion rather than objective truth and so this is far safer in my eyes than the grimoire method. You can get safe manifestations and results through this type of approach.
Finally, you have the middle ground of respect, where you neither command nor worship. It is promoted in books such as "Demons of Magick" (DoM) by Gordon Winterfield and it is the one I agree with the most. DoM insists that you position yourself as being the respected authority figure to the Goetic spirit and you make you respectfully request your results with the divine authority granted by the ritual method. You treat the spirit with respect, but you are the one who wields the correct amount of power in the interaction. For me, I like this approach, but I also think it better to treat the spirit as an equal. I know I have the power and authority to use if necessary, but I would rather make my request respectfully and then outline the terms of our transaction. Then I assume agreement (since I am not clairvoyant) and give license to depart so that the work can start. I am respectfully transactional in this sense and do not believe in considering spirits "friends". For me, results have either worked wonderfully or nothing happens; I have never experienced true misfortune by adopting this attitude. For me, it is the best approach and the one I recommend.
Method:
As A.Nox mentioned, the method can provide much to a safe interaction with a Goetic spirit. Respect is often built into the method and you will see this with the various approaches I will underline. It is always a good idea to use the grimoires as a starting point to understand how the methods have evolved to become safer.
In the original Ars Goetia, you use an assortment of divinely consecrated instruments, divine names, and conjurations to work with the spirit. Items such as the lamen, the hexagram, the circle, the ring and the triangle ensure you are protected against the spirit by providing warding and boundaries. Elements such as the sword, the lions belt, and the increasingly severe set of conjurations provide you the threatening authority to command the spirit. Finally, all of the purification, prayer and fasting provide you the clarity and purity necessary to wield the command and communicate with the spirit. Inside of all of this mess, you will see that the entire method is relying mostly on you assuming you are god and using divine names + symbols as a safety measure against the spirit. In other words, beyond "god", you are truly the only one dealing with your own safety.
Going to Dr. Rudd's version of the Goetia, you will see that a "thwarting" angel is added into the mix to bind the Goetic spirit. This is also used in DoM, along with angelic emissaries connected to the binding angel. The angel adds counterbalance to the spirit's presence and also adds an element of control to the demon's power in manifesting your result. Research online for those who have used this approach and you will see that many noted the binding angel to help "quiet" things down a lot and make the process smoother. In my opinion this is an important safety mechanism that helps to provide a large aspect of safety to the operation of you are not going with a demonolatry approach. It is my preferred central mechanism along with the so-called "middle ground" approach to respect I mentioned above.
On the subject of DoM, the book's method also adds 2 things to consider to help things out. The first is imaginary "evocation keys" that are sensory imaginations you use to fill the astral atmosphere of your ritual space with sensations unique to the spirit. I have tested with and without these keys to see the difference and I find they help in aiding manifestation of the spirit. In my eyes, it not only helps the spirit manifest, but also adds into "respect" built into the method. The 2nd element is offerings as payment to the spirit for its labour. An offering is a sign of acknowledgement and thanks to the spirit for its work and it is showing you recognise it as a partner in your interaction. It is also a battery source for the spirit to use to help anchor your result into the physical world, which aids manifestation of your desire. These signs of goodwill add to the sense of safety that a method can give you and are worth considering.
The final aspect of method I want to consider is that of demonolatry. As I said, demonolatry verges on worship, communion, and adulation for the spirit. Again, nothing necessarily wrong with that and it works for a lot of people, but there are some considerations you want to think about here. In a lot of rituals of demonolatry, a common practice is to invoke the spirit directly to you or inside of you. If not that, then a lot of these methods simply involve calling the spirit to you without any control valves or boundaries, producing "loose" methods of contact. One thing I found in my own time working with spirits, is that their energy can leak into you and intermingle with you. This can, at least temporarily, affect you on a psychological level. It is common in direct invocation to assume characteristics of the spirit you invoke into yourself and this is one distinct thing that happens a lot in demonolatry. Personally, I am not a fan of mixing my own energy with a spirits and can have implications to your psychology (positive or negative). If you are not a fan of this or fear this issue, then the methods of demonolatry are not classified as "safe" in my eyes when you engage with any Goetic spirit. This can apply to any spirit however.
The Spirit's Identity
Finally, we arrive at the spirit's identity in considering safety. If you consider a common definition of what a spirit is, then we can define it (very roughly) as some sort of amorphous blob / field of energy that has a sense of intelligence to it. This blob of energy has its own character, set of abilities, and composition that makes it unique from another blob of energy. What this means is that every spirit has its own identity and this can have implications for how "safe" it is. The big question is how you assess that "character".
The old grimoire descriptions of spirits are often a good place to start and further research into the experiences of other practitioners is always helpful. Going by the Ars Goetia, spirits such as Glasya Labolas and Andras are dangerous because the grimoire specifically states them as either being an "author of bloodshed" or killing the practitioner and their relatives if improperly evoked. Online research from others show statements that either support these natures or depictions that show these spirits are more "serious" compared to other Goetic spirits. On the other hand, the same grimoire mentions spirits such as Vassago and Orobas as being "good natured" or "faithful" to the practitioner. My own experiences with Orobas have shown this and online depictions of Vassago support the good-natured theory. So from the grimoires, we could at least assume that the grimoires give guidance into how safe a spirit is based on its identity.
You can also take the spirit's abilities as being extensions of their personalities. For example, "Andras" is considered a spirit of discord and causes discord among others. So it is fair to assume that discord and chaos are sort of built into the spirit's personality to some extent. If we take a look into a spirit such as Belial, then we see it grants renown, power, and prestige. We can assume that power and renown are also a part of Belial's character. In all of these cases, we must consider how such personalities can clash with a practitioner. Depending on how these characters interact with our own personalities, we might experience a wide range of responses from these spirits. This can range from simply refusing to work with us or to actual misfortunate consequences in our results (ie "bad luck").
But ultimately, I will say this on how the spirit's identity affects its "safety". You cannot know for sure if what you call will correspond precisely with what others have experienced. For example, Orobas is experienced as safe and helpful in my experiences, but it turned a friend of Lon Milo Duquette into a horse gambling addict who overturned his own life. Your own experience will likely be unique and your research into the spirit's character can only take you so far before you experience it yourself. This is why you maximise your chances for safety by considering a good strong method and an approach marked with respect to the spirit. These 2 other factors will apply to all spirits and then you will never have to make a bet on its character being safe or dangerous. You will be able to discover the character of the spirit in a safer and secure way.
My conclusion (ie TLDR):
The method, the attitude of approach (respect), and the identity of the Goetic spirit all determine how "safe" it is. You want to have a good method and a respectful attitude towards all spirits in order to ensure you have a systematically safe approach to working with them, regardless of their characters. The characters and abilities of a spirit can be considered safe or dangerous to different types of people and this is also something to consider. What kind of person you are and what is the spirit like? How will you intermingle with something like that? This is important, but you can always decrease that risk by adopting a good set of secure protocols to working with the spirit and ensuring you do so with respect.
In all my experiences with Goetic spirits, I have not gotten truly dangerous results or manifestations with any of them. I have worked with around 20+ spirits and all of them have been great without any real problems. I did get some "bad" results that turned out to be me in need of lessons, but I do not attribute this to the spirit and rather to my own immaturity. I hope these considerations help you.
Respect:
Others have already mentioned this, but it deserves repeating always. Treating the spirit with respect and consideration get you quite far. You just need to consider the different approaches used in calling the Goetic spirit. The first one is the original method from the Ars Goetia, which uses incantations that demand, curse, and threaten the spirit to show up. While the spirits are not human and should be treated as such, this attitude will infuse an adversarial energy into whatever shows up and maybe it might not be dangerous in the moment, but it may most definitely screw up your results or add an unlucky twist into them.
Now consider the opposite end of the "respect" aspects in demonolatry. Reading the works of individuals such as S. Connolly, you will see that worship, adulation, and even supplication are used in their methods to communicate with the spirit. For some, this can work and you can certainly try it if you want. But the main issue with this form of excessive respect is that these currents invite the spirit far too much into your life. Your energy may co-mingle with theirs more than you want and this can invite their presence beyond the boundaries that you are comfortable with. However, this is more a matter of my opinion rather than objective truth and so this is far safer in my eyes than the grimoire method. You can get safe manifestations and results through this type of approach.
Finally, you have the middle ground of respect, where you neither command nor worship. It is promoted in books such as "Demons of Magick" (DoM) by Gordon Winterfield and it is the one I agree with the most. DoM insists that you position yourself as being the respected authority figure to the Goetic spirit and you make you respectfully request your results with the divine authority granted by the ritual method. You treat the spirit with respect, but you are the one who wields the correct amount of power in the interaction. For me, I like this approach, but I also think it better to treat the spirit as an equal. I know I have the power and authority to use if necessary, but I would rather make my request respectfully and then outline the terms of our transaction. Then I assume agreement (since I am not clairvoyant) and give license to depart so that the work can start. I am respectfully transactional in this sense and do not believe in considering spirits "friends". For me, results have either worked wonderfully or nothing happens; I have never experienced true misfortune by adopting this attitude. For me, it is the best approach and the one I recommend.
Method:
As A.Nox mentioned, the method can provide much to a safe interaction with a Goetic spirit. Respect is often built into the method and you will see this with the various approaches I will underline. It is always a good idea to use the grimoires as a starting point to understand how the methods have evolved to become safer.
In the original Ars Goetia, you use an assortment of divinely consecrated instruments, divine names, and conjurations to work with the spirit. Items such as the lamen, the hexagram, the circle, the ring and the triangle ensure you are protected against the spirit by providing warding and boundaries. Elements such as the sword, the lions belt, and the increasingly severe set of conjurations provide you the threatening authority to command the spirit. Finally, all of the purification, prayer and fasting provide you the clarity and purity necessary to wield the command and communicate with the spirit. Inside of all of this mess, you will see that the entire method is relying mostly on you assuming you are god and using divine names + symbols as a safety measure against the spirit. In other words, beyond "god", you are truly the only one dealing with your own safety.
Going to Dr. Rudd's version of the Goetia, you will see that a "thwarting" angel is added into the mix to bind the Goetic spirit. This is also used in DoM, along with angelic emissaries connected to the binding angel. The angel adds counterbalance to the spirit's presence and also adds an element of control to the demon's power in manifesting your result. Research online for those who have used this approach and you will see that many noted the binding angel to help "quiet" things down a lot and make the process smoother. In my opinion this is an important safety mechanism that helps to provide a large aspect of safety to the operation of you are not going with a demonolatry approach. It is my preferred central mechanism along with the so-called "middle ground" approach to respect I mentioned above.
On the subject of DoM, the book's method also adds 2 things to consider to help things out. The first is imaginary "evocation keys" that are sensory imaginations you use to fill the astral atmosphere of your ritual space with sensations unique to the spirit. I have tested with and without these keys to see the difference and I find they help in aiding manifestation of the spirit. In my eyes, it not only helps the spirit manifest, but also adds into "respect" built into the method. The 2nd element is offerings as payment to the spirit for its labour. An offering is a sign of acknowledgement and thanks to the spirit for its work and it is showing you recognise it as a partner in your interaction. It is also a battery source for the spirit to use to help anchor your result into the physical world, which aids manifestation of your desire. These signs of goodwill add to the sense of safety that a method can give you and are worth considering.
The final aspect of method I want to consider is that of demonolatry. As I said, demonolatry verges on worship, communion, and adulation for the spirit. Again, nothing necessarily wrong with that and it works for a lot of people, but there are some considerations you want to think about here. In a lot of rituals of demonolatry, a common practice is to invoke the spirit directly to you or inside of you. If not that, then a lot of these methods simply involve calling the spirit to you without any control valves or boundaries, producing "loose" methods of contact. One thing I found in my own time working with spirits, is that their energy can leak into you and intermingle with you. This can, at least temporarily, affect you on a psychological level. It is common in direct invocation to assume characteristics of the spirit you invoke into yourself and this is one distinct thing that happens a lot in demonolatry. Personally, I am not a fan of mixing my own energy with a spirits and can have implications to your psychology (positive or negative). If you are not a fan of this or fear this issue, then the methods of demonolatry are not classified as "safe" in my eyes when you engage with any Goetic spirit. This can apply to any spirit however.
The Spirit's Identity
Finally, we arrive at the spirit's identity in considering safety. If you consider a common definition of what a spirit is, then we can define it (very roughly) as some sort of amorphous blob / field of energy that has a sense of intelligence to it. This blob of energy has its own character, set of abilities, and composition that makes it unique from another blob of energy. What this means is that every spirit has its own identity and this can have implications for how "safe" it is. The big question is how you assess that "character".
The old grimoire descriptions of spirits are often a good place to start and further research into the experiences of other practitioners is always helpful. Going by the Ars Goetia, spirits such as Glasya Labolas and Andras are dangerous because the grimoire specifically states them as either being an "author of bloodshed" or killing the practitioner and their relatives if improperly evoked. Online research from others show statements that either support these natures or depictions that show these spirits are more "serious" compared to other Goetic spirits. On the other hand, the same grimoire mentions spirits such as Vassago and Orobas as being "good natured" or "faithful" to the practitioner. My own experiences with Orobas have shown this and online depictions of Vassago support the good-natured theory. So from the grimoires, we could at least assume that the grimoires give guidance into how safe a spirit is based on its identity.
You can also take the spirit's abilities as being extensions of their personalities. For example, "Andras" is considered a spirit of discord and causes discord among others. So it is fair to assume that discord and chaos are sort of built into the spirit's personality to some extent. If we take a look into a spirit such as Belial, then we see it grants renown, power, and prestige. We can assume that power and renown are also a part of Belial's character. In all of these cases, we must consider how such personalities can clash with a practitioner. Depending on how these characters interact with our own personalities, we might experience a wide range of responses from these spirits. This can range from simply refusing to work with us or to actual misfortunate consequences in our results (ie "bad luck").
But ultimately, I will say this on how the spirit's identity affects its "safety". You cannot know for sure if what you call will correspond precisely with what others have experienced. For example, Orobas is experienced as safe and helpful in my experiences, but it turned a friend of Lon Milo Duquette into a horse gambling addict who overturned his own life. Your own experience will likely be unique and your research into the spirit's character can only take you so far before you experience it yourself. This is why you maximise your chances for safety by considering a good strong method and an approach marked with respect to the spirit. These 2 other factors will apply to all spirits and then you will never have to make a bet on its character being safe or dangerous. You will be able to discover the character of the spirit in a safer and secure way.
My conclusion (ie TLDR):
The method, the attitude of approach (respect), and the identity of the Goetic spirit all determine how "safe" it is. You want to have a good method and a respectful attitude towards all spirits in order to ensure you have a systematically safe approach to working with them, regardless of their characters. The characters and abilities of a spirit can be considered safe or dangerous to different types of people and this is also something to consider. What kind of person you are and what is the spirit like? How will you intermingle with something like that? This is important, but you can always decrease that risk by adopting a good set of secure protocols to working with the spirit and ensuring you do so with respect.
In all my experiences with Goetic spirits, I have not gotten truly dangerous results or manifestations with any of them. I have worked with around 20+ spirits and all of them have been great without any real problems. I did get some "bad" results that turned out to be me in need of lessons, but I do not attribute this to the spirit and rather to my own immaturity. I hope these considerations help you.
Thank you, this is a very clear and carefully thought through response and will halp me lots in deciding how I am going to do this work. Thanks for the time and effort you have put into this. It is appreciated.
What kinds of offering do you make. Is it something like wine or food/cake. Or meat or your own blood?
Do you think Phenex is also 'Safe'ish? And out of curiosity do you think the same spirit can be summoned at the same time by 2 different practitioners in different places (just wondering if we should conceptualise them as a 'field' of energy, or in an anthropomorphic way as being like 'a person' who is in 'one place at a time'. It would have an impact on when I would try to work with them also...
Post automatically merged:
What kinds of offering do you make. Is it something like wine or food/cake. Or meat or your own blood?
Post automatically merged:
Do you think Phenex is also 'Safe'ish? And out of curiosity do you think the same spirit can be summoned at the same time by 2 different practitioners in different places (just wondering if we should conceptualise them as a 'field' of energy, or in an anthropomorphic way as being like 'a person' who is in 'one place at a time'. It would have an impact on when I would try to work with them also...
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Hi Lion, you are welcome for that. I'm happy to provide some info I've gathered from my own past reading and practices. I'll also try to answer your questions as well.
1. What kinds of offering do you make. Is it something like wine or food/cake. Or meat or your own blood?
- This really depends on the spirit and on the tradition that you are using to approach them; offerings themselves are a bit of an art and science.
- If we go by the hints from the Ars Goetia, you will see that planetary metals (e.g. Sun - Gold, Iron - Mars, etc) are used to construct the specific sigils of the spirit based on their rank (King - Sun, Duke - Venus, Prince - Jupiter, etc). Many practitioners, including myself, take this as saying that the spirits each have a planetary correspondence to them. So offerings corresponding to the planets can be considered a valid approach. This is most readily seen with the use of specific planet aligned incenses such as Sandalwood for Venus, Frankincense for Sun, and Ceder for Jupiter, etc. So you could use these incenses either as a welcome or as an offering by itself to the spirit. In this case, I would simply just leave the spirits sigil at the altar at the end of the ritual and invite it to stay to enjoy the scent of the incense before actually departing. You may use other offers that are aligned with the spirit's planet.
- Another approach is food items like you mentioned. You can always use an alcohol, such as wine or a strong spirit and I think these can work quite well. You should always research in advance what kind of food / beverage the spirit likes in advance based on online accounts by other people who have done the work; you will see some good possibilities through these accounts. The same consideration applies for food. The approach would be to leave the food on an altar that is at least temporarily dedicated to the spirit, with its sigil present. This is ideally prepared in advance as part of the ritual and you invite the spirit to stay and enjoy the food before departing, like with incense. After, you throw away the food or toss into the ground to decompose.
- Finally, regarding blood and bodily fluids, you will find a lot of people who are split on this. This is a controversial subject, but my take is that you can use offerings like your blood, but with an important set of caveats. First, you must understand that blood and semen especially are powerful offerings since they are strong sources of bodily and spiritual vitality with your DNA connected to them. If you offer blood to a spirit, understand you are giving an offering that has the potential to bind you to that spirit in a very strong way. As a ritual battery, blood is extremely powerful and can be an excellent way to power the manifestation of results or to motivate the spirit to do its work, but that bond to you means that the spirit's energy has a potential to stay with you. The naysayers of blood offerings say that this will allow the spirit to more easily wreck havoc in your life, turn it upside down etc, but I have not personally experienced this. To help prevent this, I usually use an agreement or pact that has a clause stating that no spiritual, psychological, emotional, or physical harm shall come to me. This has been sufficient for me and you will see many people using blood in traditions such as demonolatry to no ill effect. So my take is that you can use blood / semen / bodily fluids, but do so as an offering for exceptionally important results and making sure to understand the caveats. Also make sure to always do the ritual with respect and good safety measures (e.g. the binding angel) when using blood offerings as this will ensure a safe, secure approach.
- On the whole, you can find an excellent guide by reading "Ritual Offerings" by Aaron Leitch. He does not agree with my take on using blood/ bodily fluids, but he does give great considerations on how to make offerings to spirits and why it is a good idea to include offerings.
2. Do you think Phenex is also 'Safe'ish?
- Remember what I said about the spirit's identity. Phenex is connected with written + spoken communication and also music as its primary abilities. It is not adept with baneful purposes such as death, destruction, cursing, and hexing. So the logic I gave above, yes it should be safe. Spirits such as Shax, Andras, Raum, Glasya Labolas, and Forcalor could potentially be considered more "dangerous". But even then, you have to consider safety as an aggregate of the points I noted above.
- If you treat even a spirit like Phenex with disrespect, then you will likely reap some consequences such as bad luck in your communication or unintended ritual results that are negative for you. I am not saying this will happen, but just as an educated guess. Respect means thoughtful communication, a non-commanding / non-coercive ritual structure, and a good offering given for the service. Do the ritual safely, give the petition as a request, and state what you will give it in return for payment. If it fulfils your request, give the offering and if it does not, then don't and explain why not to the spirit in a subsequent communication.
- Once again, even with spirits like Andras, using a safe secure ritual method will ensure a powerful level of safety is already built into the ritual structure. So if you use a binding angel, invocation to powerful spirits (e.g. archangels) to oversee the ritual progress / results, and you approach with a good attitude, then any of the 72 spirits are safe to work with, including Phenix.
- One final word on safety is also on the results you ask for. If you ask for results that have the potential to backfire in some horrible way on you (e.g. asking for money and getting an inheritance from a "sudden" death of a loved one), then that is also an issue for safety. Remember to word your petition carefully enough to ensure nothing like this happens, but also open ended enough to allow for multiple paths to manifestation. Usually what is sufficient is to give a request (e.g. "I want more dates through the dating app tinder") and also to bind the spirit to a clause that ensures that no harm of any type shall come to you (or your loved ones if necessary). This can help a lot with that. But always remember you are also responsible for the safety of the ritual as pertains to your results; you are seeking to manipulate reality in order to get what you want and this comes with a responsibility.
- The answer to this is probably "yes", but you really are getting into deeply theoretical territory here. This is actually a very common question with many related offshoots. But again in its most basic form, yes I believe 2 practitioners can summon the spirit at the same time in different locations. You need to remember that spirits are not only blobs of energy, but they are blobs of energy that exist in a different realm to us. Whether angelic, demonic, Jinn, Fae, or whatever else, they are not bound by the same physical world as we are and therefore exist in a different "time and space" as those bound to the physical mundane plane. If you take this line of thinking, then you can say a spirit can appear in 2 different places on our plane because it is not bound to the physical laws of space on our plane. Beyond this, I won't speculate because giving you an objective answer with more precision would not give you an objective picture of how it happens. The reason for this is because I simply do not feel like I know more than this and anyone else's attempt at being specific will end up being subjective conjecture or experience.
- I still say it is best to see them as a field of energy as opposed to something anthropomorphic. Each practitioner will receive the spirit in a different unique form (if at all). But one objective thing among practitioner that always occurs is that they "feel" when the spirit arrives in similar ways such as chills, a different energy coming into the room, or the atmosphere of the room changing in some way. To me, this is more like a field of "something" than a specific anthropomorphic being.