PSA: samael is not an angel and more about angels

[Ohana]

One thing here that could help the OP tremendously... Just say "In my experience". Those three words remove you from being the arbiter of all knowledge and truth. Its just your experience, it also allows other to have their own experiences with Samael that differ from your own.

Once a person starts talking in absolutes about any spirit, then I immediately dismiss them as delusional. So, a simple reframe would be really helpful for you here.

That makes sense to me! If entities have personal qualities then they might have preferences for who they work with. People having different expierences with the same entities just due to that.

But if angels are a speicies though and not just a term for a group of people. This title is kind of misleading. He would still be an angel technically just one that might tend to cause trouble for people. Again that might depend on person to person? Or maybe its like how some people are allergic to shellfish. Or even how some are immune to poison ivy. Interesting to think about.

Though I can think of another possibility of maybe their being process of devoting an angel to a not angel. But that raises more questions of what that process does or even is. Would it be like getting fired from a job? I don't for sure about any of this just showing some ideas.

 

[System Error Message]

I think I might see part the communication problem. First, I am assuming we are all mystics here. But this language, this nit-picking, this is from accountants and lawyers try to talk theology and metaphysics.

For mystics, nobody is defining God. God is experienced. But afterwards we only have the very limited language of the ambient culture to try to communicate about what we've experienced. And these are always incomplete because they are human artifacts. The Mystery (By whatever name: God, the Ain Soph Aur, The Neoplatonic One, IAO, The Great Spirit, the Universe ) is always far more than what we can say or think about it.

For Plotinus and his successors, the One is absolutely transcendent and unknowable in itself; it's beyond being, beyond thought, beyond language. We can only encounter it through its emanations.

I'm about 50% more animist, but the NeoPlatonism , is a pretty decent operative framework for magic. Here the daimons (angels and demons) in this system function as intermediaries , not as totally independent entities but manifestations that make the incomprehensible One accessible to limited human consciousness. Iamblichus emphasized that our theurgic practices and ritual frameworks matter. They're not arbitrary but shapes how divine reality becomes accessible to us. The gods/daimons meet us through the stories, and symbolic and mythic structures we create.

All our encounters with reality are mediated by interpretive frameworks. The Infinite appearing through culturally-shaped mythology is no less "real" than a scientist's encounter with nature through mathematical frameworks. The forms (whether Yahweh, Krishna, or faerie encounters) are not the ultimate reality itself, but rather, so some or great degree, how the Infinite becomes knowable to our finite consciousness. The map is not the territory, but it participates in the territory.

Simiarly the cultural construction of these experiences doesn't negate their reality, or their source in something beyond the individual psyche. Just as our visual system "constructs" color from wavelengths still reveals something "real" about the world (we assume), our mythic/psychic frameworks construct encounters that genuinely mediate transcendent reality.

On a more practical level, all the angels and demons all have different manifestations depending on the ritual structure I use. If I call Michael using Hebrew rites . to me he comes through he seems far more primordial and, well radioactive. If call him using Folk Catholic novena, he is modulated by the "mythstream" of a very friendly , even cozy religion. It's still him but less outright so much. I do not use Arabic rites, but I imagine he're pretty primoridal there too. again this is prpapyl odulated by how these rites feel to me, as well as the group mind / char toom they exist within.

I explained elsewhere but the general mechanics for deities or personas is that humans create the persona, then an entity takes its place. For angels thats not the case, and the different versions of them is just them at a different time such as from the past or the future, but angels have a problem since they have so many pretenders which can be a problem because angels dont sanctify with humans, so humans have to take the effort to verify that it is an angel. This is why the general mechanics or understanding of what an angel is is important and having ways to verify that it is an angel. Not sure if i mentioned it here.

Theres a fundamental philosophical problem with anti-religion or anti-practice. It can not be Truth or Truthful as it does not contain the seed of the thesis. Mastery is mastery over paradox, perspective beyond the dual, to hold thing and no-thing as simultaneously true. This is what makes the denial of Wisdom suspect as its deviant to the fundamental reality. If you find yourself on the thesis or the antithesis that is a huge red flag that you need to begin deconstructing your position.

One thing here that could help the OP tremendously... Just say "In my experience". Those three words remove you from being the arbiter of all knowledge and truth. Its just your experience, it also allows other to have their own experiences with Samael that differ from your own.

Once a person starts talking in absolutes about any spirit, then I immediately dismiss them as delusional. So, a simple reframe would be really helpful for you here.

In no way would this reframe take away from your experiences. Hope this helps.

This right here!!! In our path no one can become an arbiter of knowledge, only an example with experiences! But we must all make our own path

That makes sense to me! If entities have personal qualities then they might have preferences for who they work with. People having different expierences with the same entities just due to that.

But if angels are a speicies though and not just a term for a group of people. This title is kind of misleading. He would still be an angel technically just one that might tend to cause trouble for people. Again that might depend on person to person? Or maybe its like how some people are allergic to shellfish. Or even how some are immune to poison ivy. Interesting to think about.

Though I can think of another possibility of maybe their being process of devoting an angel to a not angel. But that raises more questions of what that process does or even is. Would it be like getting fired from a job? I don't for sure about any of this just showing some ideas.

While you may say personal gnosis or personal experience, humans have corrupted angels through faith. I had experienced this when i was in hospital, trying an angel chant to call on raphael, but raphael at the time tried to indirectly kill me as another entity responded, and the emergency button wouldnt work along with the usual not breathing and waiting long just for a nurse. Thats when i decided to use Aphiel's power and cure my pneumonia within 2 days and got discharged. The result from that is that Aphiel chased raphael using the usual bait and purified him which as a consequence as i was reading angel experiences elsewhere was that from so much failure of people working with raphael to a lot of success working with him. Basically what happened from my experience also affected others as well without any interaction with them.

The same way with samael, the same thing happened. There are a few factors that i used to write this post not just experience. If you read up on the experience of others working with samael, it really shows that samael isnt an angel. The behaviour of angels is heavily controlled in the sense that there are some things that angels will not do, and samael keeps doing that and acting more like a devil or fallen. The 2nd is the knowledge on angels, whats taboo to angels, what happened in the past and some details. The 3rd is my own experience, samael coming after me and others, and even the angel aphiel himself. He has threatened practitioners with death even those that dont work with samael.

So for those asking how can this be when theres practice or books from the past that samael was an angel? A lot of practices and information on angels are in jewish and are heavily influenced by judaism in the past. Judaism in the past is very very different as at some point they even worshipped baal. This tells you theres a mix up of what they think are angels when instead it could've been a fallen angel or devil. Similarly with the book of enoch, im not sure how to explain that the books may not be 100% accurate either given the core mechanics and knowledge about angels and how they work and incarnate including that angels are both in and outside of time, meaning that they arent entirely bound by time. So it would be impossible for a human to be come an angel but the other way round is possible in the sense that enoch was an angel incarnate, and showed the same behaviours in only knowing much much later, making it seem like he became metatron when he was already metatron but asleep.

Knowing the details about angels is why i made this post and the requirement from aphiel prior to sharing any details of working with him. He also has the requirement of upholding truth despite the difficulty (i debunk hatred and misinformation but it makes my family absolutely mad at me and my country given their political standing which is based on misinformation). I always gather information on the experience of others, and i find that a pattern emerges for samael which doesnt seem very different from the experiences that people in demonaltry get. Angels have very strict rules and policy for certain things that they cannot break both because of their own mindset and society and that there are certain angels that enforce this too which if they tried makes them feel like hitting a strong barrier. So angels both in their decisions dont do certain things and enforce that as well. So it is both by my experience, the experience of others and the knowledge regarding angels that i explain that samael is not an angel, and that ancient texts arent exactly as reliable as people think they are. Its the understanding of what and why thats important, and i find that lacking in the occult.

 

[FireBorn]

I explained elsewhere but the general mechanics for deities or personas is that humans create the persona, then an entity takes its place. For angels thats not the case, and the different versions of them is just them at a different time such as from the past or the future, but angels have a problem since they have so many pretenders which can be a problem because angels dont sanctify with humans, so humans have to take the effort to verify that it is an angel. This is why the general mechanics or understanding of what an angel is is important and having ways to verify that it is an angel. Not sure if i mentioned it here.







While you may say personal gnosis or personal experience, humans have corrupted angels through faith. I had experienced this when i was in hospital, trying an angel chant to call on raphael, but raphael at the time tried to indirectly kill me as another entity responded, and the emergency button wouldnt work along with the usual not breathing and waiting long just for a nurse. Thats when i decided to use Aphiel's power and cure my pneumonia within 2 days and got discharged. The result from that is that Aphiel chased raphael using the usual bait and purified him which as a consequence as i was reading angel experiences elsewhere was that from so much failure of people working with raphael to a lot of success working with him. Basically what happened from my experience also affected others as well without any interaction with them.

The same way with samael, the same thing happened. There are a few factors that i used to write this post not just experience. If you read up on the experience of others working with samael, it really shows that samael isnt an angel. The behaviour of angels is heavily controlled in the sense that there are some things that angels will not do, and samael keeps doing that and acting more like a devil or fallen. The 2nd is the knowledge on angels, whats taboo to angels, what happened in the past and some details. The 3rd is my own experience, samael coming after me and others, and even the angel aphiel himself. He has threatened practitioners with death even those that dont work with samael.

So for those asking how can this be when theres practice or books from the past that samael was an angel? A lot of practices and information on angels are in jewish and are heavily influenced by judaism in the past. Judaism in the past is very very different as at some point they even worshipped baal. This tells you theres a mix up of what they think are angels when instead it could've been a fallen angel or devil. Similarly with the book of enoch, im not sure how to explain that the books may not be 100% accurate either given the core mechanics and knowledge about angels and how they work and incarnate including that angels are both in and outside of time, meaning that they arent entirely bound by time. So it would be impossible for a human to be come an angel but the other way round is possible in the sense that enoch was an angel incarnate, and showed the same behaviours in only knowing much much later, making it seem like he became metatron when he was already metatron but asleep.

Knowing the details about angels is why i made this post and the requirement from aphiel prior to sharing any details of working with him. He also has the requirement of upholding truth despite the difficulty (i debunk hatred and misinformation but it makes my family absolutely mad at me and my country given their political standing which is based on misinformation). I always gather information on the experience of others, and i find that a pattern emerges for samael which doesnt seem very different from the experiences that people in demonaltry get. Angels have very strict rules and policy for certain things that they cannot break both because of their own mindset and society and that there are certain angels that enforce this too which if they tried makes them feel like hitting a strong barrier. So angels both in their decisions dont do certain things and enforce that as well. So it is both by my experience, the experience of others and the knowledge regarding angels that i explain that samael is not an angel, and that ancient texts arent exactly as reliable as people think they are. Its the understanding of what and why thats important, and i find that lacking in the occult.

I'm fine with it being your experience. But as soon as you start in with the history is wrong, everyone else is wrong, I will bristle. Im not alone in this. It takes a bit of maturity to be able to hold both.

You can hold your experience as real without it requiring everyone else to be wrong. It's a razors edge, and you appear to be slipping off that edge. That's the real issue here, not your experience itself. Clarity matters, and framing matters here, full stop.

Again, I am not challenging your experience. I am challenging your framing that others are wrong in theirs.

 

[System Error Message]

I'm fine with it being your experience. But as soon as you start in with the history is wrong, everyone else is wrong, I will bristle. Im not alone in this. It takes a bit of maturity to be able to hold both.

You can hold your experience as real without it requiring everyone else to be wrong. It's a razors edge, and you appear to be slipping off that edge. That's the real issue here, not your experience itself. Clarity matters, and framing matters here, full stop.

Again, I am not challenging your experience. I am challenging your framing that others are wrong in theirs.

well this is a case where you want to get things right. Approaching samael as an angel is only going to get you into harms way. The problem isnt so much of whats wrong or right here, theres a lot of things people can discuss about that, but specifically mistaking a non angel for an angel is very harmful. In this case i've provided my arguments on the matter, there are people even some who practice angelotary who do not accept it which is bad given their position but theres 1 i know is more ritualistic in practice instead rather than actually practicing the craft but they impart things like as if physical qualifications and books are deterministic on the supernatural. Sadly this individual attracts all the attention when it comes to people talking about the practice or anyone asking for help.

This problem also extends more than just samael. Any pretender can cause people to have a wrong view on angels and end up practicing demonalatry in a harmful way without any angelic protection or doing any basic steps like the LBRP. In religion misinformation on angels has caused harm, such as how muslims view dogs and end up harming dogs and the people who help dogs because of a scripture of theirs regarding angels and dogs.