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In the Southern Hemisphere, the signs are reversed.

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When tropical signs are applied to people—precisely the type of being whose nature and life events they signify—following the Northern Hemisphere order while in the Southern Hemisphere, the results are simply incorrect. This is because signs are not actually spiritual or dimensional regions of the sky, but rather virtual regions projected symbolically from Earth onto the heavens; since Earth is what materializes human beings, only it can generate the possibilities for a person's development—possibilities that are indicated by planetary positions. The sky is a clock, not a cause of events. The sky in the Southern Hemisphere is inverted, as are the seasons. Once the correction is made, all charts work correctly.
 

Firetree

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When tropical signs are applied to people—precisely the type of being whose nature and life events they signify—following the Northern Hemisphere order while in the Southern Hemisphere, the results are simply incorrect.

I understand the dynamics involved in the sidereal Vs tropical astrology , but how would whatever hemisphere you are in change the progression ( do you mean ; 'order of them' ? ) of those signs ?

It looks like you are claiming the progression of the signs , allocated to segments of space extending out from the Earth, are in a different order in the southern hemisphere .

This is because signs are not actually spiritual or dimensional regions of the sky, but rather virtual regions projected symbolically from Earth onto the heavens;

What do you mean they are not 'dimensional' ? Do you realize how the starting point of their cycle ( 'order' ) is calculated ? That calculation is not made 'from the Earth' .

since Earth is what materializes human beings, only it can generate the possibilities for a person's development—possibilities that are indicated by planetary positions. The sky is a clock, not a cause of events. The sky in the Southern Hemisphere is inverted, as are the seasons. Once the correction is made, all charts work correctly.

Why is the Southern hemisphere sky 'inverted ' ? It is just being looked at from a differing perspective - however physical dynamics DO invert the seasons and that is due to axial tilt and orbital path of the Earth .

Please explain how you 'correct' the charts

Note ; I do realize a southern chart should be drawn up differently ... technically , but us southerners are used to looking at our charts drawn the northern way ... and that difference is simply because we are conditioned to face the path of the Sun through the sky .... Sun still comes up in the east no matter where you are or which direction you face .

Unless I am missing something here ?
 

Rynnshng

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This is actually a more complicated problem than it first appears.

Southern Hemisphere and Northern Hemisphere have different seasons due to Earth tilt, experience different stars (inc. 'upside down' constellations) and the Zodiacal signs reflect Northern Seasons, light levels and temperatures where; Christmas, ice and winter in the NH, are experienced as high summer, heat and fireflood in, at least, certain regions of Australia. Moreover, the Zodiac is entering the Age of Aquarius in the NH.

If you try to reverse it, the Zodiac becomes unworkable, because it was not designed universally, but relatively and oriented to the NH experience. You also create an Age of Virgo - and this introduces a whole new paradigm of Time, that destroys the concept of a singular Age. In short, you can reverse the NH Zodiac and accept its shortcomings to reflect the SH experience, but it doesn't, and in trying to create two Zodiacs you realise it tears the whole thing apart*.

We preferred significant alteration to make practical, functional, useable, seasonal, light-based, time-based, magical sense. We fixed the issue for ourselves by creating the Duodiac, a single device with a double wheel that fuses the incompatibilities of Astronomy and Astrology, and is suited to our Southern Climate. It restores the missing 13th Astrological sign Ophiuchus and supplies Zodiacal Relativity to one's location including alignment with the seasons. The question of signs becomes a matter of choice (and fusion) - are you a Sagittarius, Capricorn or perhaps a Sagicorn? Choose.

'The way the 12-Sign Zodiac works (in Traditional Western Astrology / TA) is that the zodiac is based on dividing the 360° ecliptic (Sun’s path) into 12 equal parts of 30° each. Each part aligns (roughly) with a calendar month, though imperfectly. This has nothing to do with the real star constellations - it's a symbolic, mathematical system. In the 12-sign system, each zodiac sign = 30° of the sky = 1/12 of a year or approximately 1 month. Adding an extra house would either change each house to 28 days or extend the calendar year to 395 days, both options causing considerable
disruption. Meanwhile, the 13th constellation known as Ophiuchus (Serpent-Bearer) has traditionally been excluded despite being a real zodiacal constellation that the Sun passes through (Nov 29–Dec 17) because its inclusion would interfere in this neat arrangement of Time. This conflict raised the key question: should signs reflect actual time spent (Sidereal/Vedic Astrology) or be made equal-length for convention and practicality (Tropical Astrology)? 13ism's solution is to represent both. Therein, 13ism reflects real solar movement through actual sky constellations and includes both tropical and sidereal astrology in one diagram simply by using two separate wheels, one inside the other.'


'For THEM a critical element of Paganism is a wordless knowing that we come from the stars, and value placed on having gratitude and respect and an ability to recognise and flow with the changes of the land that affect and influence our organism and human endeavours. For us, paganism is a human connection with the land where both human and land are viewed as extensions of an identical source of nature and its changes. Given that THEM is an Australian Magickal Order, to honour what we observe in the stars and in the land an organic representation of the elements is required that reflects our SH experience so we felt it necessary to either remedy this significant gap in Australian paganism - or at least begin re-raising and addressing the issue. The purpose of this reworking is straightforward and derives from a simple premise. Namely, if we are to work sympathetic magic to explore - or acknowledge - the influence of the celestial spheres, stars and other wonders of the world either in the changes observed in nature via our unique seasonal alchemy or applicable to personal psychology (expanded by Carl Jung), then surely, we must flow with these forms and forces in a proper attunement as they occur. We have subsequently devised a New Wheel called the Duodiac - a hybrid system that balances symbolic harmony with astronomical truth fusing Tropical (typical) Astrology (shown on an Inner Wheel), with Sidereal (Vedic) Astronomy (shown on an Outer Wheel) like a watch with two faces.

We have also developed Thirteenism (13ism) an approach to Astrology-Astronomy (Astrae) which re-includes the 13th constellation of Ophiuchus without disrupting the traditional 12 house system of the Zodiac and allowing others to import tropical astrology effortlessly. We have replaced the NH celebrations with our own event names and times to reflect our real-world experience and needs here in Australia, have assessed the Sun's path for us requires a reversal of NH deosil and widdershins, have included other important astronomical features including the lunar houses, daylight savings times, the analemma, perihelion/aphelion, annual meteor showers (given that Victoria is fortunate to have a dark sky experience) and have revised how seasons are visually represented. To signify 13isms wheel as a Southern Hemisphere device, it features an icon for Sigma Octantis, the Southern Celestial Polestar, at its heart**. The top of the diagram as it appears on screen or paper should not be interpreted as ‘North’, nor assumed to be aligned with the depicted West–East Sun-path circle, which functions as a separate observer-relative guide. The placement of the Vernal Equinox at the top reflects its conventional role as the beginning of the seasonal cycle, and as the eye tends to travel from top-down, is placed there for convenience with the Duodiac arranged in a counter-clockwise design.
' - p. 473. The Corpus Themeticum 2.0 by the Temple of THEM.

*If for instance, you invert the NH model to an SH model and create a mirror-image of the thing, you fit two hemispheres together rotated at 180 degrees to one another, but accidentally create an Age of Virgo, since the SH is still beholden to the precession of the Equinox, and must then ask what do the people in the division between these hemispheres experience on the Equator line? Is there then a third Age, and so on which detonates Astrology because it's premised on a single simple (relative) approximation of Time claiming universality.

**THEM also applies its own constellations to reorient the starscape visually and overlay it thematically. We combine Crux, the Pointer Stars and parts of Centaurus to form 'The Sorcerer's Apprentice' constellation, for instance, using the sky as a teaching mechanism of our lore rather than as an inherited unchangeable map. As its circumpolar stars rotate above us, it is so envisioned that the constellation is never 'upside down' (itself a fragile claim on space) - the tetrahedron (Crux) held in the Sorcerer's hand merely slightly inverts its shape as it revolves.

- I'll upload our treatise to the WF Library.
 
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Morell

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In the Southern Hemisphere, the signs are reversed​


When tropical signs are applied to people—precisely the type of being whose nature and life events they signify—following the Northern Hemisphere order while in the Southern Hemisphere, the results are simply incorrect. This is because signs are not actually spiritual or dimensional regions of the sky, but rather virtual regions projected symbolically from Earth onto the heavens; since Earth is what materializes human beings, only it can generate the possibilities for a person's development—possibilities that are indicated by planetary positions. The sky is a clock, not a cause of events. The sky in the Southern Hemisphere is inverted, as are the seasons. Once the correction is made, all charts work correctly.
No. Although it feels logical, it's not true. North is in the North, no matter if you are on Northern or southern hemisphere. The Sun raises in the East. If Southern hemisphere were inverted the Sun would have to raise in the west. The means that the Earth rotates the same. The seasons re no more inverted than the time in the time zones. When I have day, on the opposite side of planet is the night but that is not inversion, it is just the time there being 12 hours ahead/behind. Same with seasons on Southern and Northern hemisphere. they are not inverted, just half year ahead/late.

In planetary astrology what matters is specific place on the planet and from there where the planets are positioned.

BTW, when you think so dualistic about south/north, what about equator?
 

ahathoor

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When tropical signs are applied to people—precisely the type of being whose nature and life events they signify—following the Northern Hemisphere order while in the Southern Hemisphere, the results are simply incorrect. This is because signs are not actually spiritual or dimensional regions of the sky, but rather virtual regions projected symbolically from Earth onto the heavens; since Earth is what materializes human beings, only it can generate the possibilities for a person's development—possibilities that are indicated by planetary positions. The sky is a clock, not a cause of events. The sky in the Southern Hemisphere is inverted, as are the seasons. Once the correction is made, all charts work correctly.
does this mean that in Equatorial regions, astrology stops working? 😅
 
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does this mean that in Equatorial regions, astrology stops working? 😅
No one is born exactly on the Equator. None of the locations where this imaginary line divides the two hemispheres have maternity wards that straddle it; in other words, a person is always either in the Southern Hemisphere or the Northern Hemisphere. Being at the North Pole or just one centimeter north of the Equator makes no difference—you are still in the Northern Hemisphere. Your argument doesn't hold up.
Post automatically merged:

I understand the dynamics involved in the sidereal Vs tropical astrology , but how would whatever hemisphere you are in change the progression ( do you mean ; 'order of them' ? ) of those signs ?

It looks like you are claiming the progression of the signs , allocated to segments of space extending out from the Earth, are in a different order in the southern hemisphere .



What do you mean they are not 'dimensional' ? Do you realize how the starting point of their cycle ( 'order' ) is calculated ? That calculation is not made 'from the Earth' .



Why is the Southern hemisphere sky 'inverted ' ? It is just being looked at from a differing perspective - however physical dynamics DO invert the seasons and that is due to axial tilt and orbital path of the Earth .

Please explain how you 'correct' the charts

Note ; I do realize a southern chart should be drawn up differently ... technically , but us southerners are used to looking at our charts drawn the northern way ... and that difference is simply because we are conditioned to face the path of the Sun through the sky .... Sun still comes up in the east no matter where you are or which direction you face .

Unless I am missing something here ?
They aren't dimensions. And every calculation regarding signs stems from Earth's cycles—seasons, equinoxes, and solstices—within a geocentric system. You'd do well to go back and study the origins of tropical astrology.
Post automatically merged:

No. Although it feels logical, it's not true. North is in the North, no matter if you are on Northern or southern hemisphere. The Sun raises in the East. If Southern hemisphere were inverted the Sun would have to raise in the west. The means that the Earth rotates the same. The seasons re no more inverted than the time in the time zones. When I have day, on the opposite side of planet is the night but that is not inversion, it is just the time there being 12 hours ahead/behind. Same with seasons on Southern and Northern hemisphere. they are not inverted, just half year ahead/late.

In planetary astrology what matters is specific place on the planet and from there where the planets are positioned.

BTW, when you think so dualistic about south/north, what about equator?
Hahaha. You really ought to start studying geography. Let's talk after you've studied that. The Tropical Zodiac is basically linked to Earth's cycles in one of the hemispheres; if the other has different cycles, the zodiac operates in the same order but follows those cycles.
Post automatically merged:

This is actually a more complicated problem than it first appears.

Southern Hemisphere and Northern Hemisphere have different seasons due to Earth tilt, experience different stars (inc. 'upside down' constellations) and the Zodiacal signs reflect Northern Seasons, light levels and temperatures where; Christmas, ice and winter in the NH, are experienced as high summer, heat and fireflood in, at least, certain regions of Australia. Moreover, the Zodiac is entering the Age of Aquarius in the NH.

If you try to reverse it, the Zodiac becomes unworkable, because it was not designed universally, but relatively and oriented to the NH experience. You also create an Age of Virgo - and this introduces a whole new paradigm of Time, that destroys the concept of a singular Age. In short, you can reverse the NH Zodiac and accept its shortcomings to reflect the SH experience, but it doesn't, and in trying to create two Zodiacs you realise it tears the whole thing apart*.

We preferred significant alteration to make practical, functional, useable, seasonal, light-based, time-based, magical sense. We fixed the issue for ourselves by creating the Duodiac, a single device with a double wheel that fuses the incompatibilities of Astronomy and Astrology, and is suited to our Southern Climate. It restores the missing 13th Astrological sign Ophiuchus and supplies Zodiacal Relativity to one's location including alignment with the seasons. The question of signs becomes a matter of choice (and fusion) - are you a Sagittarius, Capricorn or perhaps a Sagicorn? Choose.

'The way the 12-Sign Zodiac works (in Traditional Western Astrology / TA) is that the zodiac is based on dividing the 360° ecliptic (Sun’s path) into 12 equal parts of 30° each. Each part aligns (roughly) with a calendar month, though imperfectly. This has nothing to do with the real star constellations - it's a symbolic, mathematical system. In the 12-sign system, each zodiac sign = 30° of the sky = 1/12 of a year or approximately 1 month. Adding an extra house would either change each house to 28 days or extend the calendar year to 395 days, both options causing considerable
disruption. Meanwhile, the 13th constellation known as Ophiuchus (Serpent-Bearer) has traditionally been excluded despite being a real zodiacal constellation that the Sun passes through (Nov 29–Dec 17) because its inclusion would interfere in this neat arrangement of Time. This conflict raised the key question: should signs reflect actual time spent (Sidereal/Vedic Astrology) or be made equal-length for convention and practicality (Tropical Astrology)? 13ism's solution is to represent both. Therein, 13ism reflects real solar movement through actual sky constellations and includes both tropical and sidereal astrology in one diagram simply by using two separate wheels, one inside the other.'


'For THEM a critical element of Paganism is a wordless knowing that we come from the stars, and value placed on having gratitude and respect and an ability to recognise and flow with the changes of the land that affect and influence our organism and human endeavours. For us, paganism is a human connection with the land where both human and land are viewed as extensions of an identical source of nature and its changes. Given that THEM is an Australian Magickal Order, to honour what we observe in the stars and in the land an organic representation of the elements is required that reflects our SH experience so we felt it necessary to either remedy this significant gap in Australian paganism - or at least begin re-raising and addressing the issue. The purpose of this reworking is straightforward and derives from a simple premise. Namely, if we are to work sympathetic magic to explore - or acknowledge - the influence of the celestial spheres, stars and other wonders of the world either in the changes observed in nature via our unique seasonal alchemy or applicable to personal psychology (expanded by Carl Jung), then surely, we must flow with these forms and forces in a proper attunement as they occur. We have subsequently devised a New Wheel called the Duodiac - a hybrid system that balances symbolic harmony with astronomical truth fusing Tropical (typical) Astrology (shown on an Inner Wheel), with Sidereal (Vedic) Astronomy (shown on an Outer Wheel) like a watch with two faces.

We have also developed Thirteenism (13ism) an approach to Astrology-Astronomy (Astrae) which re-includes the 13th constellation of Ophiuchus without disrupting the traditional 12 house system of the Zodiac and allowing others to import tropical astrology effortlessly. We have replaced the NH celebrations with our own event names and times to reflect our real-world experience and needs here in Australia, have assessed the Sun's path for us requires a reversal of NH deosil and widdershins, have included other important astronomical features including the lunar houses, daylight savings times, the analemma, perihelion/aphelion, annual meteor showers (given that Victoria is fortunate to have a dark sky experience) and have revised how seasons are visually represented. To signify 13isms wheel as a Southern Hemisphere device, it features an icon for Sigma Octantis, the Southern Celestial Polestar, at its heart**. The top of the diagram as it appears on screen or paper should not be interpreted as ‘North’, nor assumed to be aligned with the depicted West–East Sun-path circle, which functions as a separate observer-relative guide. The placement of the Vernal Equinox at the top reflects its conventional role as the beginning of the seasonal cycle, and as the eye tends to travel from top-down, is placed there for convenience with the Duodiac arranged in a counter-clockwise design.
' - p. 473. The Corpus Themeticum 2.0 by the Temple of THEM.

*If for instance, you invert the NH model to an SH model and create a mirror-image of the thing, you fit two hemispheres together rotated at 180 degrees to one another, but accidentally create an Age of Virgo, since the SH is still beholden to the precession of the Equinox, and must then ask what do the people in the division between these hemispheres experience on the Equator line? Is there then a third Age, and so on which detonates Astrology because it's premised on a single simple (relative) approximation of Time claiming universality.

**THEM also applies its own constellations to reorient the starscape visually and overlay it thematically. We combine Crux, the Pointer Stars and parts of Centaurus to form 'The Sorcerer's Apprentice' constellation, for instance, using the sky as a teaching mechanism of our lore rather than as an inherited unchangeable map. As its circumpolar stars rotate above us, it is so envisioned that the constellation is never 'upside down' (itself a fragile claim on space) - the tetrahedron (Crux) held in the Sorcerer's hand merely slightly inverts its shape as it revolves.

- I'll upload our treatise to the WF Library.
It isn't a problem once you understand that it is a language of signs regarding events, not the causes of events. The sky function like a clock; that is, they don't cause anything—they herald it. And another thing: this whole idea of astrological ages is utter nonsense. After all, signs are only relevant to personal events, whereas stars relate to global matters.
 
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Rynnshng

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My friend, I don't think you or ChatGPT, know what you are talking about, and have made numerous suppositions that destabilize your own argument. But if you imagine visible light coming from stars ly away from one another that may no longer exist, whose rudimentary arrangement is grouped arbitrarily into clusters, and happens to have been given collective names (hundreds of different ones in different parts of the sky over time) defines personality - what is one to say? And if you must use a robot to make your points - what point in discussion?

The ONA believed they had encapsulated all personality types with their 'Star Game' too. They didn't.
 
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