If you can get results just by using intent with energy, what use are spirits, Jinn, angels etc. Do they amplify or speed up something?

[Lion]

I was supprosed by a couple of experiments getting results just by using energy and intention. ... and avoiding 'passion for results', I have less success using goetic spirits, Jinn or angels... but not unsuccessful either. This just got me wondering about the use of spirits of different kinds and whether tpeople think hey make a big difference...

 

[Beyond Everything]

I was supprosed by a couple of experiments getting results just by using energy and intention. ... and avoiding 'passion for results', I have less success using goetic spirits, Jinn or angels... but not unsuccessful either. This just got me wondering about the use of spirits of different kinds and whether tpeople think hey make a big difference...

Unless you're well advanced (and that specfically means a very developed subtle body), these things tend to solve some problems and then bring other ones. Most people are undiscerning and can't put two and two together.

I've also never seen evidence that they bring better general results than so-called simple manifesting using one's own power.

 

[Lion]

Thats a strong advocation for 'manifesting using your own power'. Other than Bardon's excercises, which are very much about this, is there any other way of growing your skills in this area. As I say, sometimes I am suprised at how effective it can be.... is that also your experience?

Post automatically merged: Jun 22, 2026

Thats a strong advocation for 'manifesting using your own power'. Other than Bardon's excercises, which are very much about this, is there any other way of growing your skills in this area. As I say, sometimes I am suprised at how effective it can be.... is that also your experience?

Also, being 'undiscerning' ... I dont contest that judgement ... I am keen to know how to 'put two and two together' ... and what kinds of problems bring other ones when solved.

 

[OberonFromTheHills]

I was supprosed by a couple of experiments getting results just by using energy and intention. ... and avoiding 'passion for results', I have less success using goetic spirits, Jinn or angels... but not unsuccessful either. This just got me wondering about the use of spirits of different kinds and whether tpeople think hey make a big difference...

Its simply a matter of paradigm.

In modern magick, there are two main models that are debated : the energy model and the spirit model.

Even though they are not that seperated in practice, you always find people who either focus their work on petitioning a spirit to get something and the ones who focus on creating the change by casting programmed energy constructs.

They are many ways to explain why they all work and/or why some models doesn't work for some people :

• personnal cosmology
• worldview
• believing/not believing in spirits
• believing/not believing in what you do
• personnal sympathy with a model.

Artists have good results by doing a painting or writting a poem. Women in countryside of Europe have results by cooking a meal. Ceremonial magickians.could write essays on Paimon and the results they got by calling him. Chaos decide that if Spider Man can trap an enemy into a web, so he will for them...

At the end of the day, if it works for you congrats.... Most of people are still struggling to get results.

 

[Mannimarco]

I was supprosed by a couple of experiments getting results just by using energy and intention. ... and avoiding 'passion for results', I have less success using goetic spirits, Jinn or angels... but not unsuccessful either. This just got me wondering about the use of spirits of different kinds and whether tpeople think hey make a big difference...

The basic reason is cooperation. "Team work makes the dream work". Two or more people that can get along and work well together will normally get more done than working alone. The thing is, the people, or entities in this case, have to actually click. Some people click with most popular occult spirits, some with almost none of them, and most fall somewhere in between. This is mostly about energetic resonance, also being pleasant and easy to work with, and many other factors unique to the entity in question.

Of course it's simpler to just manifest on your own, but if you can build the relationship and get the relevant factors to align, working with spirits can be really effective. Almost all traditional magickal systems involve spirits in one way or another, and it's for a good reason.

 

[solxyz]

One big reason to work with spirits is because it is fun and interesting. Casting sigils gets boring after a while. Meanwhile, the different energies, personalities, and perspectives that the spirits bring are things I never would have or could have dreamed up - sometimes it can be so different from anything I could imagine imagining. One of the best ways to practice getting out of your reality tunnel is to start seeing things from the perspective of another being that has a very different kind of experience than you. So this gets to another reason for working with spirits - many of them are good teachers. There are things you can learn from them, both in terms of "results" magic and personal growth or wisdom. Finally, I do think that if you build up a good set of spirit relationships, it does make you more powerful over time than just trying to do everything yourself.

 

[lexidium]

Angels and demons etc are not independant beings sitting around somewhere just waiting to do our bidding. They are anthropomorphic representations of aspects of the universe and ourselves. They are symbols to help the mind climb where it cannot fly.
Invoking and evoking them is part of the 'art of changing consciousness at will'

 

[solxyz]

Angels and demons etc are not independant beings sitting around somewhere just waiting to do our bidding. They are anthropomorphic representations of aspects of the universe and ourselves. They are symbols to help the mind climb where it cannot fly.
Invoking and evoking them is part of the 'art of changing consciousness at will'

While our ways of imagining angels are demons are certainly anthropomophizations for our own cognitive convenience, I strongly disagree with your claim that they are not independent beings. The world is not the inert and senseless place that materialists would have you believe it is. It is composed, among other things, of interpenetrating fields of intelligence with their own agendas. This includes the angels are demons, which cannot be properly related to as mere tools of your own mind.

 

[ahathoor]

I think you have asked one of the most important core questions of magical practice. The textbook Chaote answer would be that using spirits or not using them are simply different but equivalent ways of doing magic, similar to, say, cursive vs. block calligraphy. While there is certainly truth hidden in that somewhere, I do not entirely agree with it.

So, first of all, there is the question of what we consider imaginal entities to "objectively be". I personally am a strong anti-solipsist, it is my personal gnosis and ethical standpoint to grant strong personhood to imaginal beings, as well as other humans. You will hear opinions of the imaginal being a reflection of one's (or of our collective) psychology, or a "humanized" way to understand the universe. Now I can step in as a crazed Zos-Kia cultist that I am, and claim all of these can be true at the same time, on account of reality being a glorious mess. (Imaginal is a beautiful word I was familiarized with by J. F. Martell and Phil Ford; it means the part of reality that is pure image; ie. image as substance, compare "made of smokeless fire". I have come to love this word quite a lot.)

Anyway, my answer to why working with imaginal beings can be meaningful though, is entirely independent of what you think they "objectively are".

My understanding is that the core issue with pure Intention in magical practice is that our minds are overly complicated and contradictory; if you practice hypnosis for long enough, you'll get a deep sense for just how much this is true... Then, there is the topic of the world being overly complicated and contradictory. In my practice and understanding, magical work (similarly to hypnotic suggestion) is mostly about building consensus. In the mind, and in the world, equally. The ideal you want to reach is "the world" also wanting the result that you want. Working with ancestors, deities, angels or demons allows you to connect yourself to a greater chain of Intention. It's no longer just you standing there, but You as an integral part of the Whole, in dialogue, as opposed to simply shouting demands into the void.

Then again, there are of course other valid ways of connecting yourself to the Whole. Maybe not equivalent, but equally workable.

 

[ahathoor]

Unless you're well advanced (and that specfically means a very developed subtle body), these things tend to solve some problems and then bring other ones.

Okay I would argue that if someone is not "well advanced" in this sense, working with powerful Imaginal entities is probably way less advisable than pure Intention work... "solves some problems and bring other ones" is possibly an overly charitable reading of what is most likely to happen. Not to be elitist or all "satanic panicky" about it or or anything.

 

[Lion]

Im thinking its possible to have a unifying model where we see spirits as very specific kinds of energy and ways of channeling energy. So actually what people do is a form of doing both. Maybe Energy and Spirit approaches parallel the particle vs wave dichotomy in Quantum physics. In practice its about recognising the kinds of energy involved with different spirits and working with that.

 

[akenu]

Well, let's consider it from the perspective of sigil magick.

You can fire a sigil for a certain desired outcome. In general, the sigil will try to bring the outcome closer to you through the path of least resistance. If you employed the alphabet of desire, you could get a more complex effect, as well. Do you want two people to grow closer together? Create a sigil for each of them and wrap them with a circle of positive aspects of your alphabet of desire. Do you want them to fall apart? Build a wall of negative aspects between their sigils.

But what if you wanted to take a more conscious and methodical approach? Or you wanted to get some complex result regularly? This is where you might want to create a servitor. A servitor can be more methodical than a regular sigil and improve the effect. Now, if a lot of people used that servitor for a long period of time, you would get an upgrade: an egregore.

Existing spirits are pre-existing egregores. If you find one that matches your use case and is compatible with you, you will save a lot of time. However, if the effect you are seeking is simple, a simple sigil is all it takes.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I was surprised by a couple of experiments getting results just by using energy and intention. ... and avoiding 'passion for results', I have less success using goetic spirits, Jinn or angels... but not unsuccessful either. This just got me wondering about the use of spirits of different kinds and whether people think hey make a big difference...

IMO, these things are all tools. Some tools suit some people better than others.

 

[Lion]

Are different kinds of 'energy' experience actually different kinds of spirit?

 

[Ziran]

Are different kinds of 'energy' experience actually different kinds of spirit?

They're all one type of energy taking different forms. That type of energy is usually described in English as "Divine Will" or "Divine Revelation". The many ways in which this energy presents itself is a function of the type of vessel, or nest, which is being fashioned for it/them.

 

[ahathoor]

Arguably, there's a certain moral dimension to this whole thing as well. Sure one can try to collapse it all into a strict monotheism, flat deism or some kind of materialism, but ultimately, all that feels like to me is on ontologic violence.

It's one of my main issues with Carrollianism, that on one hand he preaches about being all punk and breaking all rules, and then presenting this really rigid authoritative view made of bad mathematical formulae fitting a corporate management textbook, and a good helping of quantum woo with a solipsistic flavor.

Ultimately, nothing is true and everything is permitted can be understood many ways, and i feel he chose a less-than-savory way of doing that. Only love and wonder are real. Do you want to live in an ensouled universe of personal connections, or fall into solipsistic hubris / despair?

 

[Sereturr]

Well, a spirit properely called during the ritual even without a certain formal evocation, if answers, is surely capable of things, otherwise impossible by using just sole "self power". That goes not only about the immediate manifestations like the wind in a fully closed space, temperature drop without reason or the candlefires starting to shake in a certain rhythm. Their ability to shape the causal lines is surely something almost impossible by just someone's intent and will, especially when talking about the post-ritual synchronies, unusual coincidence arrays, following the ritual pattern, and so on.

 

[esswavesse]

Unless you're well advanced (and that specfically means a very developed subtle body), these things tend to solve some problems and then bring other ones. Most people are undiscerning and can't put two and two together.

I've also never seen evidence that they bring better general results than so-called simple manifesting using one's own power.

ita, there is power in knowledge and specific language, but the knowledge and specificity are required for it to be potent and worthwhile.

imo people are also suited to certain things. we could all attune to most things with the right resources, but as things stand, will have predispositions that are relatively out of our control.

as for the original question - what we know about these entities is pretty much always connected to a system of belief and practice. the more competency you have in the system which has them named and defined, the better your result should be. working with only intuition, personal energy etc. can have more potent results more easily, because it's all self defined. does that make sense?

 

[Lurker]

Well, a spirit properely called during the ritual even without a certain formal evocation, if answers, is surely capable of things, otherwise impossible by using just sole "self power". That goes not only about the immediate manifestations like the wind in a fully closed space, temperature drop without reason or the candlefires starting to shake in a certain rhythm. Their ability to shape the causal lines is surely something almost impossible by just someone's intent and will, especially when talking about the post-ritual synchronies, unusual coincidence arrays, following the ritual pattern, and so on.

I'm with you on the TSIR experiences. I've had a couple, and whenever I start to wonder if I've just gone mad and am wasting my time, those immediately come back to mind and remind me that, well, TSIR. I'm immensely grateful and gratified to have had them. Experiencing the presence of other orders of life induces true awe and a deeper understanding of existence.

That said, some people never have events like that and still get what they cast for using spirit-based techniques. Different people have different aptitudes.

Also, I've used non-spirit based techniques and gotten what I cast for. In my experience, synchronicities don't require spirit-based magic.

YMMV, of course, because we're discussing magic, not physics.

 

[dzb10035]

Using intent with energy / manifesting with your own abilities has its limits. For most daily living, you are a physical creature bound heavily to the physical world, which has implications on our ability to move and work with subtle energies. We are definitely capable of working with subtle energies, but we must train hard and extensively for this capability. And even after all that training, it is still not second nature to us and we still have limitations with this. Regardless of sigils, manifestation, law of attraction or some energy working method, our ability to realise outcomes through our own power can sometimes be limited unless if we are truly advanced. Speaking from experience, I have found the greatest success with using these methods for internal work and less so for external change.

Regardless of whether you consider them egregores or actual external intelligences, spirits are capable of moving and manipulating subtle energies just as skilfully as we move and manipulate things with our opposable thumb based hands. They are largely made up of these types of energies and so this comes naturally to them. Their ability to move things in the physical world is usually limited, but their ability to move the subtle energies higher up in the chain of manifestation certainly beats ours. I believe they are fully capable of working these energies in complex ways, which we lack when do do things through stuff like sigils, manifestation or energy work.

Like I said, manifestation could be visualised as a chain of events, going from the subtle created ideas to the coarse mundane manifested reality. This chain is implied in several constructs such as the tree of life, even though there are variations in how this chain looks like. Manifesting a simple result requires a simple manipulation of energies in this chain in order to produce a synchronicity in the physical world, so using something like sigil magick can work. But a complex result? This can be more difficult to do and require a more complex manipulation of the subtle parts of this chain. A spirit, especially one suited for the type of energies associated with your result, is best qualified to play with the subtle energies of the chain in order to produce a result that could manifest into the physical world.

The power of spirit based manifestation comes when all parts of the chain do their jobs and play to their strengths. The spirit manipulates the energies in the subtle parts of the chain in order to create the conditions for the manifestation of the result into the physical world. You do everything you can in the physical world to bring the physical world closer to those conditions the spirit has energetically created for you. By working in harmony like this, you create the situation where a complex result manifests. Without the spirit, servitor, or egregore to do the subtle part for you, it will be much harder to enable the manifestation of something complex.

Of course, take what I said as nothing more than speculative theory. To me, it makes sense based on everything I have read in Hermeticism, Kabbalah, etc, but you might have your own takes on it.