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I see alot of usage of LSD,Psilocybin,Mescaline,DMT and other psychedelics for spiritual experiences, but as someone who has tried multiple psychedelics, and a few Dissociatives and deliriants i dont see why they arnt more frequently discussed for such things,
I have tried heroic LSD doses 450ug as my record, same with psilocybin and ketamine. I believe that with for example ketamine, when you are out of your body you are just as prone to visuals or experiences that you would be prone to on psychedelics, however the nature of these experiences seems to be different and more often negative than insightful. You can have a ego death on ketamine and there are still some experiences id say you can not achieve on psychedelics.
About deliriants, i have only tried a medium dose of benadryl once. i had a horrid experience, im curious if anyone had a good one.
without the cultural context and knowledge that shamans train their who lives to attain the use of psychedelic medicines isnt as useful as you would think. it could be dangerous even. with any tool not having proper guidance in its use won't usually have good results.
as for deleriants they are the same even more so however that only goes for the plant based ones usually in the scoplamine family derives from devils trumpets, short apples and belladonna. diphenhydramine is useless and insanely bad your you besides increasing your risk for neurological disorders it.
all of them have a high risk for death or other permanent damage. and since we lost most of the knowledge on their use its just not worth dealing with.
ketamine. is the one thing that im more ok with its exploration since you cannot od on it and it doesn't really damage your body unless you take really high doses for a long time. may want tk look into Dr John C Lilys experiments. just be careful with anything you do and its often better to use the slow route because the journey itself is just as rewarding if not more so than the goal.
without the cultural context and knowledge that shamans train their who lives to attain the use of psychedelic medicines isnt as useful as you would think. it could be dangerous even. with any tool not having proper guidance in its use won't usually have good results.
as for deleriants they are the same even more so however that only goes for the plant based ones usually in the scoplamine family derives from devils trumpets, short apples and belladonna. diphenhydramine is useless and insanely bad your you besides increasing your risk for neurological disorders it.
all of them have a high risk for death or other permanent damage. and since we lost most of the knowledge on their use its just not worth dealing with.
ketamine. is the one thing that im more ok with its exploration since you cannot od on it and it doesn't really damage your body unless you take really high doses for a long time. may want tk look into Dr John C Lilys experiments. just be careful with anything you do and its often better to use the slow route because the journey itself is just as rewarding if not more so than the goal.
Yes about deliriants i just added that partially just to add it, Benadryl is extremely toxic and deliriants in general are a very iffy class of drugs. About the guidance alot of people do this improperly but you need to learn of proper integration and i believe then it would be beneficial to use even when solo. I do agree the journey is quite rewarding but in my opinion the path with using substances for assistance does not mean it is rushed, and the journey with it is is still a long and complicated one.
the stated you get to with psychics are the same you can getto with breathing and meditation that type of thing but psychedelics are instantaneous as oped to the time it takes with other methods and by its nature you are skipping to effort and growth need to get their thats kinda what I mean. where as use in indigenous cultures has had decades and generations to learn how to properly navigate that kind of medicine.
it also depends on what your doing with them or using them for. to contact ancestors? talk with spirits? to heal or harm? all of this stuff has rules that keep you and anyone else safe that just arnt able to be taught in a short time hence why shamanic parationers are usually chose year young and have to go through a process of overcoming a "sickness" of sorta that weeds out those that are unable to face what's to come.
Crowley in his later years experimented with drugs and Magick. he also kinda got into some other extreme stuff at that time and I think he had lost his shit maybe the failing the abramelin ritual at the lockness house came to roost idk.
also the dmt dimensions are being mapped by psyhonauts as well as the beings they encounter so research is being done now but its in the early stages
what are you proposing specifically? what kind of exploitation are you interested in?
the stated you get to with psychics are the same you can getto with breathing and meditation that type of thing but psychedelics are instantaneous as oped to the time it takes with other methods and by its nature you are skipping to effort and growth need to get their thats kinda what I mean. where as use in indigenous cultures has had decades and generations to learn how to properly navigate that kind of medicine.
it also depends on what your doing with them or using them for. to contact ancestors? talk with spirits? to heal or harm? all of this stuff has rules that keep you and anyone else safe that just arnt able to be taught in a short time hence why shamanic parationers are usually chose year young and have to go through a process of overcoming a "sickness" of sorta that weeds out those that are unable to face what's to come.
Crowley in his later years experimented with drugs and Magick. he also kinda got into some other extreme stuff at that time and I think he had lost his shit maybe the failing the abramelin ritual at the lockness house came to roost idk.
also the dmt dimensions are being mapped by psyhonauts as well as the beings they encounter so research is being done now but its in the early stages
what are you proposing specifically? what kind of exploitation are you interested in?
Self exploration for me primarily, different people tolerate these substances differently and for me personally i have had practically no negative experiences on heroic doses, i had mostly increased insight into myself due to the auto bibliographical enhancements LSD particularly gives. In my opinion i guess it really depends on the individual on the end, some people just cant tolerate even low lsd doses some people can. And i guess you are right in the first part where you said you are skipping a bit, if you mean skipping in that way then i agree.
I am not proposing anything specific i just wanted to hear other peoples opinions on this.
Self exploration for me primarily, different people tolerate these substances differently and for me personally i have had practically no negative experiences on heroic doses, i had mostly increased insight into myself due to the auto bibliographical enhancements LSD particularly gives. In my opinion i guess it really depends on the individual on the end, some people just cant tolerate even low lsd doses some people can. And i guess you are right in the first part where you said you are skipping a bit, if you mean skipping in that way then i agree.
I am not proposing anything specific i just wanted to hear other peoples opinions on this.
just for self exploration yea its great for that I thought you were talking about in an occult sense.
I've used many psychedelics for that. originally I just wanted to use them as part drugs but after an experience with an of golden teachers I changed my veins on what the purpose of these things were. I also have some ancestral history with them being part Mexican and Apache the use specifically in mesoamerica for mushrooms especially has been well documented. after that I used them as medicine. for instance having a specific intent or something I wanted to work on before I took anything.
as for heroic doses I've hade many. I think the largest with lsd was 35 hits(not sure how much each dose mcg was) and 10 hits of presses 230mg mdma.
the experiences I've had with dmt were extremely interesting.
just for self exploration yea its great for that I thought you were talking about in an occult sense.
I've used many psychedelics for that. originally I just wanted to use them as part drugs but after an experience with an of golden teachers I changed my veins on what the purpose of these things were. I also have some ancestral history with them being part Mexican and Apache the use specifically in mesoamerica for mushrooms especially has been well documented. after that I used them as medicine. for instance having a specific intent or something I wanted to work on before I took anything.
as for heroic doses I've hade many. I think the largest with lsd was 35 hits(not sure how much each dose mcg was) and 10 hits of presses 230mg mdma.
the experiences I've had with dmt were extremely interesting.
I think something worth calling out here is control and repeatability. Yes, drugs can and do alter the chemistry in the brain and produce an experience. The issue I have with that as someone who works directly with spirits can be explained with a CB radio analogy.
Taking psychedelic's is like speaking into the mouthpiece of the CB radio to whoever is out there and having an experience. Performing a ritual is like speaking into the mouthpiece and calling one specific spirits name and having a direct experience with intent. You can call that spirit at another time and have another experience later if you want. Huge difference. Not less, not bad, just different.
One issue I personally have is that the experience is chemically driven from the start. I can take a psychedelic and have an encounter regardless. If I perform an evocation while under it, I’m still having an encounter regardless, so what’s the source? Can I call that a real spiritual encounter? (Rhetorical question).
Native Americans took Peyote to experience whatever the "spirits" said to them. The Eleusinian Mystery School used Koykia(sp?) as part of their initiatory process to simulate death and rebirth. Both examples here have rich history no doubt, but they weren’t used the same way we use magick operationally today. They were deeply moving experiences for the experiencers. The Eleusinian Mystery school tradition lasted over a thousand years, so that's not nothing.
I guess it comes down to personal preference. Both experiences are subjective. The drugs do alter the brain, they have researched this and put it on paper, but that is where it stops. Like ritual, it is subjective after that.
On repeatability and control. With drugs, you are 100% on the ride til its done, like it or not. Far less control over direction, depth, and outcome. No clue what spirits you encounter. With ritual, there is full agency and control in that the practitioner can end the contact at any time. Consent matters. Another huge difference in my view.
On the positive side for psychedelics; It might be a great way to blast open the door for some. It could be a great way for someone to learn that it is okay to 'let go' and experience something "other" and potentially open someone's third eye.
Last thing and I will end my Ted talk here; About 6 months ago I did a full purge of caffeine. It was fucking brutal. My brain was over compensating for the lack of caffeine. I was waking into what I felt was like magickal trance. I was having experiences seeing the doorway to the astral. The problem was, I couldnt go in. I couldnt tell if it was because of the caffeine detox, or if it was real. I ultimately decided to halt all magickal operations until I was done with the detox and my body re-regulated itself. I couldn't trust that the magick was real magick, or just a chemical reaction only.
I think that dissos are especially able to do other things to you as they do 2 things that psychedelics can't.
1. They mostly came from anesthetic research and have these effects that knock your body out (and sometimes even stimulating effects at the same time like PCP and it's analogues). That means they force your body into a state that is forced to focus on the inner experience, shaping your free will in ways that is weird to say the least. And some parts of perception get turned off too, like the integration of sensory information, resulting in funny associations, and less funny ones. NMDA Receptors are turned off, so that also created this "disconnected awareness".
So this results in that:
Turning Off Signal Relay: By lodging inside the receptor channel, they prevent glutamate from opening the gate for calcium and sodium ions. This effectively cuts the electrical signal between the thalamus (the brain's sensory relay station) and the cerebral cortex (the area responsible for conscious perception).
Disrupted Pathways: This blockade specifically targets pathways responsible for pain perception, proprioception or sense of body position, and multisensory integration. The body may still receive sensory input (eyes see, skin feels), but the brain physically cannot assemble these signals into a coherent picture of reality.
2. The anesthetic part of them takes away a fear that pushes you to physical or mental decisions that you would shape your regular non disso trip significantly - so you get a synthetic fearlessness or letting go that is the foundation of deeper trips that you normally self sabotage in regular psychedelics trips. This way ego dissolution and very deep states occur in different intensity.
Sadly dissos are also way more toxic and dangerous or life altering in all kinds of ways. The level of confusion is just rivaled by deliriants like datura or scopolamine, where "real hallucinations" are the common thing, where you talk with people that arent there and look real.
As many know Datura is frequently used especially in latin america to turn people into zombies (not literal like iboga burials) without will -
they just tell ppl that had a fenta like tiny amount on their skin to help empty out their flat including bed and furniture etc into a van and go with them to the bank to pickup all their funds - later they can not argue legally as the cctv shows them picking it up willingly etc.
Also datura has caused death more than once, so that is a big nono, also why would you want the extremest possible dry mouth possible for 72h after which you wake up in a hospital with them telling you you had a stroke, gifted away all you belongings and have to go to a mental asylum or jail because you caused x trouble on top, go for it. XD
Where with dissos you have the anesthetic part where you are not able to feel pain, process what is going on inside or outside of you, while being stimulated and running around with PCP as example, resulting in ppl cutting off parts of their body or behaving zombies with superhuman strength, explaining how their mom is a 1000 year old machine that has the purpose to print agents of healing that need to collect souls from evil people and animals or sth like that. There is a famous story of this rapper who cut of his penis on it.
Also the substances itself are way more toxic, you know the whole ketamine bladder thing, compared to natural psychedelics that usually just show some signs of mild poisoning for a short time.
Here is a short paragraph from AI that outlines what is blocked with dissos and causes what:
Mental Effects: What Turns "Off" and "On"
This physical disconnection creates a unique mental state where specific aspects of perception are suppressed while others are paradoxically heightened or altered.
Turned OFF (Suppressed):
Pain Sensation: The transmission of pain signals is blocked, providing profound analgesia even while the patient remains conscious.
Body Ownership: The sense that "this body is mine" dissolves. Users often feel detached from their limbs or feel as though they are floating outside their physical form (depersonalization).
Environmental Connection: The link between external events and internal emotional response is severed, leading to derealization (the world feels fake or dreamlike).
Memory Formation: Short-term memory encoding is disrupted, often causing amnesia for events that occurred while under the influence.
Turned ON (Activated/Altered):
Internal Hallucinations: With external sensory gates closed, the brain turns inward, generating vivid, dream-like imagery and sounds that feel more real than actual surroundings.
Hyper-Reflectivity: In sub-anesthetic doses, the disconnect can lead to intense, looping introspective thoughts or mystical experiences, as the brain is no longer anchored by sensory input.
Sympathetic Arousal: Paradoxically, while perception is dampened, the drug often stimulates the sympathetic nervous system, physically turning on increased heart rate, blood pressure, and muscle tone.
The Anesthetic Nature: "Dissociative" vs. "Unconscious"
Unlike traditional anesthetics that turn off the entire brain (causing total unconsciousness), dissociatives create a functional disconnection.
The "K-Hole": At high doses, this disconnection becomes absolute. The user enters a trance state where they are awake (eyes open, reflexes intact) but mentally completely severed from their body and environment, unable to move or speak despite being conscious.
Sensory Isolation: It is akin to physically unplugging the monitors from a computer tower; the computer (brain) is still running and processing internal data, but it no longer receives or displays input from the keyboard and mouse (sensory organs).
Also equally crazy and some say even more insane than DMT is Salvia Divinorum, most know that stuff. Usually less dangerous (to your body) but none the less equally confusing.
But psychedelics should never be for hedonism only, but these can be on the hard end of things, I mean you can have equally life changing and sometimes also funny experiences of heroic doses or normal doses of Tryptamines that give you the same depth of experience.
If you want to scar your soul a little with less physical danger you could try DPT or so, the dark weird cold cousin of DMT.
Imagine the intensity of DMT with a dark twist, yeah, made me hesitate too.
I also felt drawn to interesting dissos in smaller doses more than once, but usually, after consuming my fair share of trip reports, descided against them. Even the "friendlier ones" like 3-Meo-PCE can and will have effects that can last up to weeks where you, well will get to know yourself, but can have serious long lasting after effects - like losing your job - or are flat out dangerous without some unemployed friend or ultra cool retired dad that is there for you 24/7.
For me it's mostly just the occasional tageted higher dose of shrooms or something equally "classic and physically safe"-
or the professionally assisted week long retreat challenge - than the experimentation with the basics of my reality.
That being said - I would go for some professional Ketamine therapy if I could in my area.
But dissos often times have a big problem with forming addiction while having a really steep tolerance curve (while being destructive to your bladder etc), and developing true delusion and "redosing problems aka accelerated addiction" - is way tooeasy on these.
I have nothing against deep experimentation - in the contrary, I am well informed on quiet some exotic stuff and am kind of on the wavelenght of "do what thou wilt" - but I just wanted to highlight the disclaimer in neon colored letters here.
I am usually no substance doomer, but this segment of substances is no joke & if I saved one person from life long institutional exploitation and so on, you're welcome
In that sense - don't panic it's organic -yeeea maybe not datura, but you get what I mean.
I think something worth calling out here is control and repeatability. Yes, drugs can and do alter the chemistry in the brain and produce an experience. The issue I have with that as someone who works directly with spirits can be explained with a CB radio analogy.
Taking psychedelic's is like speaking into the mouthpiece of the CB radio to whoever is out there and having an experience. Performing a ritual is like speaking into the mouthpiece and calling one specific spirits name and having a direct experience with intent. You can call that spirit at another time and have another experience later if you want. Huge difference. Not less, not bad, just different.
One issue I personally have is that the experience is chemically driven from the start. I can take a psychedelic and have an encounter regardless. If I perform an evocation while under it, I’m still having an encounter regardless, so what’s the source? Can I call that a real spiritual encounter? (Rhetorical question).
Native Americans took Peyote to experience whatever the "spirits" said to them. The Eleusinian Mystery School used Koykia(sp?) as part of their initiatory process to simulate death and rebirth. Both examples here have rich history no doubt, but they weren’t used the same way we use magick operationally today. They were deeply moving experiences for the experiencers. The Eleusinian Mystery school tradition lasted over a thousand years, so that's not nothing.
I guess it comes down to personal preference. Both experiences are subjective. The drugs do alter the brain, they have researched this and put it on paper, but that is where it stops. Like ritual, it is subjective after that.
On repeatability and control. With drugs, you are 100% on the ride til its done, like it or not. Far less control over direction, depth, and outcome. No clue what spirits you encounter. With ritual, there is full agency and control in that the practitioner can end the contact at any time. Consent matters. Another huge difference in my view.
On the positive side for psychedelics; It might be a great way to blast open the door for some. It could be a great way for someone to learn that it is okay to 'let go' and experience something "other" and potentially open someone's third eye.
Last thing and I will end my Ted talk here; About 6 months ago I did a full purge of caffeine. It was fucking brutal. My brain was over compensating for the lack of caffeine. I was waking into what I felt was like magickal trance. I was having experiences seeing the doorway to the astral. The problem was, I couldnt go in. I couldnt tell if it was because of the caffeine detox, or if it was real. I ultimately decided to halt all magickal operations until I was done with the detox and my body re-regulated itself. I couldn't trust that the magick was real magick, or just a chemical reaction only.
thats all very true. your analogy is a perfect way ro explain things. however shamans have a lifetime of training to be able to navigate through that experience. I was trying to explain that without the training they get the average user is stuck in exactly what you are talking about
I think that dissos are especially able to do other things to you as they do 2 things that psychedelics can't.
1. They mostly came from anesthetic research and have these effects that knock your body out (and sometimes even stimulating effects at the same time like PCP and it's analogues). That means they force your body into a state that is forced to focus on the inner experience, shaping your free will in ways that is weird to say the least. And some parts of perception get turned off too, like the integration of sensory information, resulting in funny associations, and less funny ones. NMDA Receptors are turned off, so that also created this "disconnected awareness".
So this results in that:
Turning Off Signal Relay: By lodging inside the receptor channel, they prevent glutamate from opening the gate for calcium and sodium ions. This effectively cuts the electrical signal between the thalamus (the brain's sensory relay station) and the cerebral cortex (the area responsible for conscious perception).
Disrupted Pathways: This blockade specifically targets pathways responsible for pain perception, proprioception or sense of body position, and multisensory integration. The body may still receive sensory input (eyes see, skin feels), but the brain physically cannot assemble these signals into a coherent picture of reality.
2. The anesthetic part of them takes away a fear that pushes you to physical or mental decisions that you would shape your regular non disso trip significantly - so you get a synthetic fearlessness or letting go that is the foundation of deeper trips that you normally self sabotage in regular psychedelics trips. This way ego dissolution and very deep states occur in different intensity.
Sadly dissos are also way more toxic and dangerous or life altering in all kinds of ways. The level of confusion is just rivaled by deliriants like datura or scopolamine, where "real hallucinations" are the common thing, where you talk with people that arent there and look real.
As many know Datura is frequently used especially in latin america to turn people into zombies (not literal like iboga burials) without will -
they just tell ppl that had a fenta like tiny amount on their skin to help empty out their flat including bed and furniture etc into a van and go with them to the bank to pickup all their funds - later they can not argue legally as the cctv shows them picking it up willingly etc.
Also datura has caused death more than once, so that is a big nono, also why would you want the extremest possible dry mouth possible for 72h after which you wake up in a hospital with them telling you you had a stroke, gifted away all you belongings and have to go to a mental asylum or jail because you caused x trouble on top, go for it. XD
Where with dissos you have the anesthetic part where you are not able to feel pain, process what is going on inside or outside of you, while being stimulated and running around with PCP as example, resulting in ppl cutting off parts of their body or behaving zombies with superhuman strength, explaining how their mom is a 1000 year old machine that has the purpose to print agents of healing that need to collect souls from evil people and animals or sth like that. There is a famous story of this rapper who cut of his penis on it.
Also the substances itself are way more toxic, you know the whole ketamine bladder thing, compared to natural psychedelics that usually just show some signs of mild poisoning for a short time.
Here is a short paragraph from AI that outlines what is blocked with dissos and causes what:
Also equally crazy and some say even more insane than DMT is Salvia Divinorum, most know that stuff. Usually less dangerous (to your body) but none the less equally confusing.
But psychedelics should never be for hedonism only, but these can be on the hard end of things, I mean you can have equally life changing and sometimes also funny experiences of heroic doses or normal doses of Tryptamines that give you the same depth of experience.
If you want to scar your soul a little with less physical danger you could try DPT or so, the dark weird cold cousin of DMT.
Imagine the intensity of DMT with a dark twist, yeah, made me hesitate too.
I also felt drawn to interesting dissos in smaller doses more than once, but usually, after consuming my fair share of trip reports, descided against them. Even the "friendlier ones" like 3-Meo-PCE can and will have effects that can last up to weeks where you, well will get to know yourself, but can have serious long lasting after effects - like losing your job - or are flat out dangerous without some unemployed friend or ultra cool retired dad that is there for you 24/7.
For me it's mostly just the occasional tageted higher dose of shrooms or something equally "classic and physically safe"-
or the professionally assisted week long retreat challenge - than the experimentation with the basics of my reality.
That being said - I would go for some professional Ketamine therapy if I could in my area.
But dissos often times have a big problem with forming addiction while having a really steep tolerance curve (while being destructive to your bladder etc), and developing true delusion and "redosing problems aka accelerated addiction" - is way tooeasy on these.
I have nothing against deep experimentation - in the contrary, I am well informed on quiet some exotic stuff and am kind of on the wavelenght of "do what thou wilt" - but I just wanted to highlight the disclaimer in neon colored letters here.
I am usually no substance doomer, but this segment of substances is no joke & if I saved one person from life long institutional exploitation and so on, you're welcome
In that sense - don't panic it's organic -yeeea maybe not datura, but you get what I mean.
ketamine has very little toxicity. it does effect the kidneys tho and if you take .25 g daily for months or more it will eventually cause damage incontinence is common.
also what's the difference between chemical and psychological disassociative states?
I tried to do a ritual evocation while smoking salvia. The smoke was too hot and made me uncomfortable, the effect was too short for the lenght of the ritual, and i could not take a bigger dose because i needed to stay focused enough for the steps of the ritual.
With Mushrooms I was not able to concentrate enogh on the ritual
ketamine has very little toxicity. it does effect the kidneys tho and if you take .25 g daily for months or more it will eventually cause damage incontinence is common.
I kinda get it, I also would love to shoot up this shyte until I am crossdressing like Genesis P. Orridge, Zero Kama or Timothy Wyllie,
but I'm just to afraid for my bladder - as it varies greatly for individuals - meaning also just recreational use leads to a very high risk of bladder damage (just a quick question and answer from google on that):
Toxicity Facts and Thresholds
Ketamine and its metabolites (like norketamine) cause direct, dose-dependent chemical and inflammatory toxicity to the bladder lining (urothelium) rather than forming physical "crystals". [
Clinical data shows that significant lower urinary tract symptoms and structural bladder shrinkage typically manifest with frequent use—often defined as high-frequency use or daily consumption over months to years—though individual susceptibility varies wildly. [
Up to 30% of regular recreational users develop urological complications, and antioxidants do not reverse or block direct chemical urothelial destruction. [
Progression: Chronic abuse leads to ulcerative cystitis, severe bladder wall fibrosis, and drastically reduced functional capacity (shrinking the bladder). [
Kidney Involvement: In advanced cases, lower urinary tract obstruction and ureteral strictures cause urine to back up into the kidneys (hydronephrosis), leading secondary damage to the kidneys and potential renal failure. [
Irreversibility: Early-stage damage can improve or stabilize upon absolute cessation of the substance, but severe fibrotic and contracted bladder states are permanent and often require major reconstructive surgery or a urostomy. [
Verdict on the Quote: The claim that ketamine has "very little toxicity" and only affects kidneys at a 0.25g daily threshold is false minimization ("cope"). While 0.25g daily or heavy intermittent use aggressively erodes the bladder lining over time, safe or negligible toxicity thresholds do not exist for chronic misuse. [
I do not care about proving you wrong, I just think it's a bit too much in direction of downplaying risks to let that stand here uncommentated - as u know, we are a forum some ppl might take their advice from.
I tried to do a ritual evocation while smoking salvia. The smoke was too hot and made me uncomfortable, the effect was too short for the lenght of the ritual, and i could not take a bigger dose because i needed to stay focused enough for the steps of the ritual.
With Mushrooms I was not able to concentrate enogh on the ritual
I think for ritual use Salvia in the smoked form (did you use regular leaf or extracts?) is not ideal as you also found out.
By the way the indigenous use of Salvia Divinorum is chewing the bitter leafs with some liquid infused with honey and so on, this way it's not as "DMT-crazy", meaning not as fast and overwhealming, some even say comparing it with DMT that Salvia might be the stronger one.
That being said, even the traditional form of consuming it is more for laying down and go inside inner visions - that can still turn out to be very strong. And that could be the whole ritual - setting an intention and letting the "plant spirits work on you".
You do know salvia causes you more often than not to identify with strange objects or states that are nonhuman and causes states in which you feel like you spent 60 years as an inannimate object looking at the world change?
It's not a tool for enhancing your senses slightly and still be able to function in your waking consciousness I would say.
Mushrooms could be - but I think you maybe thought about the form of ritual a little "wrong".
The state itself and the experience itself is the ritual so to speak. It absolutely is in the sense of the word.
I think depending on the frequency of use one could start working in a ceremonial magick kind of fashion,
for example like the peyote and san pedro shamans and other shamans do, because they
basically live in this state.
But at the same time you could very well do things that you memorized before-
like yoga and qi gong movements - hence also the lesser and greater banishings and so on.
Memorized word of power, mantras, maybe the effects culd be even stronger with just seed or beej mantras like the famous om.
You could even use pre recorded mantras and enns for that altered state.
But that also comes with a little disclaimer - these mantras already change the state of mind for sober people
and the orthodox hindus etc warn of the power of the beej mantra vehicles.
I would say there are ways to use psychedelics in such a way and be able to focus -
for example low to mid dosages of LSD and so on, or the mentioned in between states of mescaline.
But mescaline again ist very long acting and can be very intense too lol - 48h and more.
But it will always have phases of "not being able to focus" or feeling weird because that's kind of the point too.
I think you could very well turn it into functioning rituals if you maybe look at it a little different and prepare it differently.
For example preparing a very simple magick book, like for example simplified modern magick stuff like the Galler of Magick -
those often have phonetic representations of the words of power that you might use to connect with the other side.
Choosing a special place in nature or somewhere you know you can be unbothered by others (u know the whole set and setting thing, knowing the duration, planning in more time etc) can also be half the ritual.
Also interesting could be pathworkings that read like sensual short poems representing a deity or entity.
That is especially interesting on altered states, as it intensifies the power of words, I also wrote about that on a while ago here -
the parallels of surrealist poetry and magick.
What psychedelics and ritual has in common - that's why I would see inducing altered states a ritual in itself already -
is that they work best (or in the case of magick only work) with setting intentions.
I would say - reeeaaally take your time, just like when you are trying to connect to a new deity or entity you are connecting with the first time
- read a lot about it, watch videos about it -
be sure you know all the facts that are important for you to have an idea on how to handle it correctly, and then still there is no guarantee.
And after that you can customize your form of ritual that works for your intention.
For example you could be sober and perform a ritual, maybe timed to planets, tied to some form of talisman or other symbol, to let go of an old version of yourself and embrace a version you would prefer.
You could also do this in a not so performative fashion like ceremonial magick and prepare symbolic gestures and activities that fit this intention while moving inside a fitting radius at the perfect spot or setting in nature (mostly private gardens beat anything else, but higher doses are sometimes better just laying down with closed eyes in a safe place - your bed), for example just burning a written intention that you prepared while sober and burning it to give the ashes inside a stream, or laying down in the stream to wash away the old self, followed by some other triggers like a new haircut, pendant or scent.
I could go on and on - but a very strong one also is dancing - or embodying symbolically - like the mystery plays in ancient Greece for example, where masks also played an important role, a tradition that may be one of the oldest ever - have a look at the book from scarlet imprint called the brazen vessel, could be in our library here if you are interested in those topics.
I kinda get it, I also would love to shoot up this shyte until I am crossdressing like Genesis P. Orridge, Zero Kama or Timothy Wyllie,
but I'm just to afraid for my bladder - as it varies greatly for individuals - meaning also just recreational use leads to a very high risk of bladder damage (just a quick question and answer from google on that):
I always muscle poped it. depending on how much you your taking at a time it can be hard to pull the syringe from your arm and certainly cap it where as IM doses have a 10 to 15 min weight.
I do not care about proving you wrong, I just think it's a bit too much in direction of downplaying risks to let that stand here uncommentated - as u know, we are a forum some ppl might take their advice from.
I get where your coming from but its still very safe for drug use in general. posting the specifics is a good idea. I can't think of anything that you can spend months injecting daily that has such low risks associated with it.
Mushrooms could be - but I think you maybe thought about the form of ritual a little "wrong".
The state itself and the experience itself is the ritual so to speak. It absolutely is in the sense of the word.
I think depending on the frequency of use one could start working in a ceremonial magick kind of fashion,
for example like the peyote and san pedro shamans and other shamans do, because they
basically live in this state.
I think the best environment for a proper mushroom ritual is more tribal/animistic in nature. Get some pumping techno going, set up an altar to a goddess, and dance around a fire while throwing offerings at it. It can be extremely profound/transcendental.
I always muscle poped it. depending on how much you your taking at a time it can be hard to pull the syringe from your arm and certainly cap it where as IM doses have a 10 to 15 min weight.
That was hyperbal, just mentioned the three dudes as they from more heavy use of K and maybe other dissos all began cross dressing.
I would also like to do many other things I rather not do. I I just feel drawn to this and that, but I just know that this would tend more in direction of ruin, mostly I am not impressed by almost any drug. But I'm getting old lol.
I get where your coming from but its still very safe for drug use in general. posting the specifics is a good idea. I can't think of anything that you can spend months injecting daily that has such low risks associated with it.
Not deep enough into that tbh, I know some guy that does that injection stuff with one and the other thing, also K and is just fine, but I'm not sure what he will have to deal with in old age. But I'm all for allowing people most stuff - as long as it doesn't harm others or destroys their peace.
I think the best environment for a proper mushroom ritual is more tribal/animistic in nature. Get some pumping techno going, set up an altar to a goddess, and dance around a fire while throwing offerings at it. It can be extremely profound/transcendental.
Yes, would say this kind of practice has deeper than deep roots and fits in these surroundings perfectly.
It'salso interesting how mushrooms are described as a mix between plant and animal.And consciousness in general is a very curious thing when you consider that other plants release their equivalent to stress hormones when they "smell" fresh cut grass, and many other phenomena.
It definitely has similarities to possession, in this case the plant spirit or molecule has to be given space and least resistance and it'll work it's way through you with only slight directions one can set. I mean reading even short things can get exhausting in general on all kindsof these substances.
That's why I would rather, if I would insist on doing a ritual, do something related to the mentioned tribal/animistic nature and work with symbols in nature.
