is the modern occult community getting too soft?

[Ombriel]

Honest question for the older folks here because something has been bothering me lately.

it feels like the definition of being awakened or spiritually aware has completely changed over the last few years. everywhere i look people are talking about high vibrations, ascending, and living in pure light. but when you actually talk to them their physical lives are a mess. they cannot hold down a normal job, they are terrified of leaving the house because they feel negative energy everywhere, and they cry if someone looks at them the wrong way at the grocery store. that is not an awakening. that is just a nervous system breakdown wrapped in fancy words.

where i come from we were taught the exact opposite. if your magic makes you weaker in the physical world you are doing it wrong. period. if you cannot handle a stressful conversation at work without panicking about bad vibes then your energy work is just a coping mechanism for unhealed trauma. if you cannot walk into a crowded room without feeling completely drained your wards are useless. true power is supposed to make you boring. it makes you grounded. it makes you quiet because you no longer react to every little thing.

but maybe i am just stuck in an old school mindset that does not apply anymore maybe the goal really is just to float around and feel good all day.

what do you guys think? am i being too harsh or has the spiritual community completely lost its teeth? how do you balance the unseen work with functioning like a normal adult in the real world?

 

[akenu]

Don't pretend that we didn't go through the fuzzy bunny stage with lots of geisting here and there. Someone who is beginning with the occult is usually beginning with the real world, as well, being in early twenties with a shit job and weird ezo beliefs is okay.

Being the same at thirties is a bit worse

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Maybe I've just been lucky enough not to encounter the kind of people you describe...

 

[Kepler]

self-aggrandizing strawman of someone trying to control the behavior of others.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Me or the OP?

self-aggrandizing strawman of someone trying to control the behavior of others.

 

[Kepler]

Me or the OP?

Op, those people don't exist.

 

[ahathoor]

Eh, well. Sure, but it's nothing new. From what i gather, these people do exist, and did exist way back during Crowley's time as well. They sure did when I was a teenager.

We've all met the eclectic witch whose tarot deck was touched by someone so now she has to seek absolution in the living waters of Mandalore before she can be whole again, or the psychic who never shuts up about how seeing everyone's diseases on public transport is so exhausting they can't make it to your birthday party. Yes, as long as entitled, fragile little asshats exist, there will be a portion of them doing magic and acting like being a whiny, fragile little muppet is somehow proof of their oversensitive telepathic abilities and magical development.

I have also met some great, serious and severe mages who allegedly had their daily thoughts under stricter control than a tibetan monk, but had weird messy lives and a fraught relationship with alcohol and tobacco.

So yea, human vice exists in occult circles. Always has, always will.

 

[ewiz]

I think it's always been this way. The whole fluffy-bunny new-age scene has always seemed to be the most popular occult path, and people with messy lives and unstable personalities are often drawn into it like flies. That said, I don't believe that anyone can truly be free from the frailty of the human condition. Anxiety, weakness, vice, etc. We all must face these things and try our best to respond in a healthy way. Sometimes that's easier said than done. Serious practitioners are few and far between when you look at the community as a whole, and I don't know if that can change. It sounds like you've got your head on straight with the way you'd want your practice to ideally work. Just know it doesn't always work out that way; you must always be prepared to adapt to new and unexpected challenges that life throws your way.

 

[Ombriel]

Op, those people don't exist.

they absolutely exist kepler and ahathoor just described them perfectly in the post above yours. the psychic who cannot go to a birthday party because public transport exhausts their telepathy is exactly the kind of fragility i am talking about.

there is a massive difference between holding a belief that grounds you and an obsession that makes you paranoid. when your spiritual identity becomes an excuse to avoid functioning like a normal adult in the real world, that is not a simulation or an illusion. that is a trauma response hiding behind incense smoke.

i am not trying to control anyone's behavior. i am just pointing out that if your magic makes you too weak to walk into a grocery store without panicking, the work is failing you. you can call it a strawman if it makes the reality easier to swallow, but the fragility is still there.

Post automatically merged: Today at 3:27 AM

Eh, well. Sure, but it's nothing new. From what i gather, these people do exist, and did exist way back during Crowley's time as well. They sure did when I was a teenager.

We've all met the eclectic witch whose tarot deck was touched by someone so now she has to seek absolution in the living waters of Mandalore before she can be whole again, or the psychic who never shuts up about how seeing everyone's diseases on public transport is so exhausting they can't make it to your birthday party. Yes, as long as entitled, fragile little asshats exist, there will be a portion of them doing magic and acting like being a whiny, fragile little muppet is somehow proof of their oversensitive telepathic abilities and magical development.

I have also met some great, serious and severe mages who allegedly had their daily thoughts under stricter control than a tibetan monk, but had weird messy lives and a fraught relationship with alcohol and tobacco.

So yea, human vice exists in occult circles. Always has, always will.

this is exactly it. the psychic missing a birthday party because of public transport telepathy is the perfect example of what happens when the vessel is not built right.

human vice has always existed in occult circles but there is a difference between a severe mage having a messy relationship with alcohol and a beginner using crystals as a shield to hide from the responsibilities of being an adult. one is a flawed human doing serious work, the other is a child playing dress up in the astral plane. glad to see i am not the only one noticing this pattern.

Post automatically merged: Today at 3:29 AM

Don't pretend that we didn't go through the fuzzy bunny stage with lots of geisting here and there. Someone who is beginning with the occult is usually beginning with the real world, as well, being in early twenties with a shit job and weird ezo beliefs is okay.

Being the same at thirties is a bit worse

I think it's always been this way. The whole fluffy-bunny new-age scene has always seemed to be the most popular occult path, and people with messy lives and unstable personalities are often drawn into it like flies. That said, I don't believe that anyone can truly be free from the frailty of the human condition. Anxiety, weakness, vice, etc. We all must face these things and try our best to respond in a healthy way. Sometimes that's easier said than done. Serious practitioners are few and far between when you look at the community as a whole, and I don't know if that can change. It sounds like you've got your head on straight with the way you'd want your practice to ideally work. Just know it doesn't always work out that way; you must always be prepared to adapt to new and unexpected challenges that life throws your way.

akenu you hit the nail on the head. the fuzzy bunny stage is a necessary filter for people in their early twenties figuring out who they are. the tragedy is when people reach their thirties and still use the unseen world as an escape hatch from paying rent or dealing with a toxic boss.

and ewiz you are completely right about adapting to challenges. true grounding is not about pretending the human condition does not exist. it is about facing anxiety and weakness with a strong enough internal battery that you do not collapse under the weight of it. serious practitioners are rare precisely because doing the heavy lifting in the dark is exhausting work. most people just want the aesthetic of the light without the discipline of the shadow.

 

[KjEno186]

I'm reminded of Billy Joel's song "Pressure" from The Nylon Curtain (1982), especially the line,

I'm sure you'll have some cosmic rationale​

But here you are with your faith​

And your Peter Pan advice​

You have no scars on your face​

And you cannot handle pressure​

Fifty years ago it was just newspapers, magazines, and network television (if one had enough connections). Now it's the attention economy with influencers claiming millions of followers. It takes some serious effort to filter out all the noise, and much of the noise does come from "fuzzy bunnies".

 

[Kepler]

they absolutely exist kepler and ahathoor just described them perfectly in the post above yours. the psychic who cannot go to a birthday party because public transport exhausts their telepathy is exactly the kind of fragility i am talking about.

there is a massive difference between holding a belief that grounds you and an obsession that makes you paranoid. when your spiritual identity becomes an excuse to avoid functioning like a normal adult in the real world, that is not a simulation or an illusion. that is a trauma response hiding behind incense smoke.

i am not trying to control anyone's behavior. i am just pointing out that if your magic makes you too weak to walk into a grocery store without panicking, the work is failing you. you can call it a strawman if it makes the reality easier to swallow, but the fragility is still there.

These are caricatures from anecdotes painted larger by your imagination and not real people.
People are more complex than anecdotal snapshots of isolated behaviors taken to paint superficial conclusions of their entire life. To extend that to a conclusion of an entire group of imagined people behaving in only this way ever unchanging to try to make a point is questionable.

Correlation isn't causation either.

Becoming more sensitive is part of the process of spiritual development for some. That comes with awareness.
As well as learning to adapt to it. Which will vary according to the individual blessed with the gift.

I do think the occult community has become too soft on manipulative dogmatists and ideologues, but that is changing.

 

[Toz_]

Honest question for the older folks here because something has been bothering me lately.

it feels like the definition of being awakened or spiritually aware has completely changed over the last few years. everywhere i look people are talking about high vibrations, ascending, and living in pure light. but when you actually talk to them their physical lives are a mess. they cannot hold down a normal job, they are terrified of leaving the house because they feel negative energy everywhere, and they cry if someone looks at them the wrong way at the grocery store. that is not an awakening. that is just a nervous system breakdown wrapped in fancy words.

where i come from we were taught the exact opposite. if your magic makes you weaker in the physical world you are doing it wrong. period. if you cannot handle a stressful conversation at work without panicking about bad vibes then your energy work is just a coping mechanism for unhealed trauma. if you cannot walk into a crowded room without feeling completely drained your wards are useless. true power is supposed to make you boring. it makes you grounded. it makes you quiet because you no longer react to every little thing.

but maybe i am just stuck in an old school mindset that does not apply anymore maybe the goal really is just to float around and feel good all day.

what do you guys think? am i being too harsh or has the spiritual community completely lost its teeth? how do you balance the unseen work with functioning like a normal adult in the real world?

You're arguing from a biased sample. People struggling enough to be visibly falling apart are exactly the people who'd be loudest about it. And asking the forum to agree with you it's the same validation-seeking behavior you're criticizing here, just dressed differently.

And historically, nothing here is new. People have used magic and spiritual practice instrumentally since at least medieval times spells for a good harvest, finding buried treasure, winning at the races. The Picatrix has entire sections devoted to treating melancholy (what we'd now call depression) as a real condition, with specific planetary rituals meant to relieve it. All of this has nothing to do with whether the practice "worked." Struggle and spiritual practice have always coexisted; that's not evidence that either one causes the other, and it's definitely not evidence of a modern decline. What's changed is that it's more visible now, not that it's worse.

 

[FireBorn]

I agree with some of this argument, but not all of it. I think @Kepler makes a solid, and grounding point. Correlation is not causation. Middle ground in there somewhere.

I wonder how much of this is just a reflection of society as a whole. Remember, the occult space is nowhere near as occulted as it used to be. I'm sure there are the same attitudes, or behaviors in all spaces. Is it generational? GenX and the Millenials, etc? Not trying to make it an argument of GenX vs (Cause we honestly dont give a shit anyway ) just wondering it that may also be part of what the OP is seeing. I just dont think its limited to the Occult space.

 

[Ombriel]

You're arguing from a biased sample. People struggling enough to be visibly falling apart are exactly the people who'd be loudest about it. And asking the forum to agree with you it's the same validation-seeking behavior you're criticizing here, just dressed differently.

And historically, nothing here is new. People have used magic and spiritual practice instrumentally since at least medieval times spells for a good harvest, finding buried treasure, winning at the races. The Picatrix has entire sections devoted to treating melancholy (what we'd now call depression) as a real condition, with specific planetary rituals meant to relieve it. All of this has nothing to do with whether the practice "worked." Struggle and spiritual practice have always coexisted; that's not evidence that either one causes the other, and it's definitely not evidence of a modern decline. What's changed is that it's more visible now, not that it's worse.

you make a fair point about the biased sample. the loudest voices are always the ones falling apart. but my issue is not with the struggle itself. as you said, struggle and practice have always coexisted. the picatrix dealt with melancholy precisely because those practitioners were trying to function in reality despite their pain.

my critique is aimed at the modern trend where the struggle is romanticized into a spiritual identity. there is a difference between a medieval mage doing planetary rituals to relieve depression so he can keep working his farm, and a modern practitioner using tarot as an excuse to never leave their apartment because the world is too loud. one uses magic as a tool to survive reality. the other uses magic to escape it entirely.

and if asking a question that makes people this defensive is validation seeking, then i suppose every mirror is guilty of vanity. i am just pointing at the reflection.

Post automatically merged: Today at 5:40 AM

These are caricatures from anecdotes painted larger by your imagination and not real people.
People are more complex than anecdotal snapshots of isolated behaviors taken to paint superficial conclusions of their entire life. To extend that to a conclusion of an entire group of imagined people behaving in only this way ever unchanging to try to make a point is questionable.

Correlation isn't causation either.

Becoming more sensitive is part of the process of spiritual development for some. That comes with awareness.
As well as learning to adapt to it. Which will vary according to the individual blessed with the gift.

I do think the occult community has become too soft on manipulative dogmatists and ideologues, but that is changing.

i never claimed correlation was causation. i never said magic causes the breakdown, i said the breakdown hides behind the magic.

but i will hold you to your own words at the end of your post. you admitted the community has become too soft on manipulative dogmatists. that is exactly the fragility i am talking about. when people cannot handle a direct question without calling it a strawman or a caricature, they are proving my point for me. sensitivity and awareness are part of the process, yes. but if that sensitivity leaves you unable to handle the pressure of a normal tuesday without retreating into the astral, then the awareness has become a cage. true adaptation means you can walk through the fire without burning, not that you demand the fire be put out because it hurts your feelings.

Post automatically merged: Today at 5:42 AM

I'm reminded of Billy Joel's song "Pressure" from The Nylon Curtain (1982), especially the line,

I'm sure you'll have some cosmic rationale​

But here you are with your faith​

And your Peter Pan advice​

You have no scars on your face​

And you cannot handle pressure​

Fifty years ago it was just newspapers, magazines, and network television (if one had enough connections). Now it's the attention economy with influencers claiming millions of followers. It takes some serious effort to filter out all the noise, and much of the noise does come from "fuzzy bunnies".

kjeno that billy joel quote hits hard. you cannot handle pressure. that is the exact metric i use to measure if the work is real or just theater. the attention economy has absolutely infected the occult space, turning deep esoteric work into cheap content for people who want the aesthetic of power without the scars on their face.

I agree with some of this argument, but not all of it. I think @Kepler makes a solid, and grounding point. Correlation is not causation. Middle ground in there somewhere.

I wonder how much of this is just a reflection of society as a whole. Remember, the occult space is nowhere near as occulted as it used to be. I'm sure there are the same attitudes, or behaviors in all spaces. Is it generational? GenX and the Millenials, etc? Not trying to make it an argument of GenX vs (Cause we honestly dont give a shit anyway ) just wondering it that may also be part of what the OP is seeing. I just dont think its limited to the Occult space.

fireborn you are spot on about this being a reflection of society as a whole. the occult space is not as occulted anymore, so it absorbs the same fragility as the rest of the world. but your closing line is the perfect antidote to all of this. asking to be taught how to burn instead of asking for tricks is the definition of sovereignty. that is the old school mindset i am trying to protect. if we lose the willingness to burn, we lose the teeth entirely

 

[solxyz]

What point is there in having an opinion on this subject? Is our judgement on the matter somehow going to make the "occult community" any less soft?

 

[Kepler]

i never claimed correlation was causation. i never said magic causes the breakdown, i said the breakdown hides behind the magic.

but i will hold you to your own words at the end of your post. you admitted the community has become too soft on manipulative dogmatists. that is exactly the fragility i am talking about. when people cannot handle a direct question without calling it a strawman or a caricature, they are proving my point for me. sensitivity and awareness are part of the process, yes. but if that sensitivity leaves you unable to handle the pressure of a normal tuesday without retreating into the astral, then the awareness has become a cage.

Nothing is being hidden behind the magick. They're plainly stating it according to your fiction where you look down on them and project your cage onto them.

You're just making up a conclusion about a made up situation on a Tuesday to suit your own bias and claiming it really happens.

Nothing like that happens except in your self-aggrandizing pretentious imagination.

Which is a far worse flaw of self-awareness than the one you imagine others have.

true adaptation means you can walk through the fire without burning, not that you demand the fire be put out because it hurts your feelings.

That is Larping armchair occultist idealizing that has no basis in reality.

 

[Rynnshng]

Honest question for the older folks here because something has been bothering me lately.

it feels like the definition of being awakened or spiritually aware has completely changed over the last few years. everywhere i look people are talking about high vibrations, ascending, and living in pure light. but when you actually talk to them their physical lives are a mess. they cannot hold down a normal job, they are terrified of leaving the house because they feel negative energy everywhere, and they cry if someone looks at them the wrong way at the grocery store. that is not an awakening. that is just a nervous system breakdown wrapped in fancy words.

where i come from we were taught the exact opposite. if your magic makes you weaker in the physical world you are doing it wrong. period. if you cannot handle a stressful conversation at work without panicking about bad vibes then your energy work is just a coping mechanism for unhealed trauma. if you cannot walk into a crowded room without feeling completely drained your wards are useless. true power is supposed to make you boring. it makes you grounded. it makes you quiet because you no longer react to every little thing.

but maybe i am just stuck in an old school mindset that does not apply anymore maybe the goal really is just to float around and feel good all day.

what do you guys think? am i being too harsh or has the spiritual community completely lost its teeth? how do you balance the unseen work with functioning like a normal adult in the real world?

I remember, when the O9A was accused of being too soft and Chloe Ortega chastised for it not being like some imaginary fiction produced by Stephen Leather. Shortly thereafter, Jall (Hoy) took command with DarkLogos9 (Sutter) and started promoting all manner of rape, CSAM and violence. Today, that dregful morass has splintered from Tempel ov Blood into 764 which has children torturing children. On the flipside, the Temple of THEM, my group, maintained a restrained composed rational position for almost 30 years, until recently when it declared war on the Australian Government, infiltrated its indigenous political party, and has called for the death of those politicians who aided and are aiding Zion. Zion are the reigning masters of magic and the Israeli's penchant for amoral holocausts are as hard as they come - completely immured from empathy and entirely driven by ideological capture. Is that the kind of hardness you want? That's where absolute power always leads: magical or political.

From our long-term point of view, there is nothing wrong with softness, not everyone has what it takes to risk their life or put it on the line for those they've never met purely because of a difference of moral compass or aeonic visions of what is necessary to guide Mankind and stop it sinking into savage ignorance. Magic does have levels - where do you want to wade in? Not everyone is inclined to head toward deep waters and dangerous waters like dealing with secret societies, intelligence agencies, or psychopathic killers. But when the veil lifts and you see what lies beneath you are thrust into such a world whether you like it or not. But coupled with the historical truism of realization that those who engage in such arts of death such as the Israeli's have no limits and it is only a matter of time before we and you are the next Gaza - its necessary, critical that someone does something whether they stand to succeed or not. The future is certain if nothing is done to change the course. Now - Who can stop them? Who will try? Even to try is to sign your death warrant. We have signed ours long ago.

The occult is a plural field - it has room for many practitioners, including escapism, healing trauma, harmless delusion or in their own way making the world a warmer, better place, even if you don't appreciate their attitude, approach or non-seriousness, it is still valuable to the magical collective that it remains plural and non-monolithic - because concentration and seriousness for an entire collective only ends in totalitarianism, elitism, fascism or worse. The Temple of THEM arose as a thing precisely because the ONA wanted to restrict all forms of Satanism to its own and create a monolithic definition. We rebelled against that and came together from many walks to form a pluralised expression of satanism through our many different viewpoints and belief systems. Magic can and does raze entire countries to enact ancient prophecies or political or economic aims which are their own species of magic. We've infiltrated political parties and the RPG community, challenge the FBI and openly threaten our politicians - we're designated as terrorists and extremists, though neither of those terms have a legal definition, it's a fun catch-all that is its own magic. We didn't set out to be such- those are labels they apply to us.

You should be grateful for those who employ magic for personal entertainment. From our perspective, if you're not willing to do what it takes to use magic in a war for the aeon and kill or self-sacrifice yourself to stop the holocaust then you are not hard enough for us either. So, I think the occult, will always be on a spectrum and you should be careful what you ask for. Because the Devil is never far away. Moderation is the best way.

 

[FireBorn]

I remember, when the ONA was accused of being too soft and Chloe Ortega chastised for it not being like some imaginary fiction produced by Stephen Leather. Shortly thereafter, Jall (Hoy) took command with DarkLogos9 (Sutter) and started promoting all manner of rape, CSAM and violence. Today, that dregful morass has splintered from Tempel ov Blood into 764 which has children torturing children. On the flipside, the Temple of THEM, my group, maintained a restrained composed rational position for almost 30 years, until recently when it declared war on the Australian Government, infiltrated its indigenous political party, and has called for the death of those politicians who aided and are aiding Zion. Zion are the reigning masters of magic and the Israeli's penchant for amoral holocausts are as hard as they come - completely immured from empathy and entirely driven by ideological capture. Is that the kind of hardness you want? That's where absolute power always leads: magical or political.

From our long-term point of view, there is nothing wrong with softness, not everyone has what it takes to risk their life or put it on the line for those they've never met purely because of a difference of moral compass or aeonic visions of what is necessary to guide Mankind and stop it sinking into savage ignorance. Magic does have levels - where do you want to wade in? Not everyone is inclined to head toward deep waters and dangerous waters like dealing with secret societies, intelligence agencies, or psychopathic killers. But, coupled with the historical truism of realisation that those who engage in such arts of death such as the Israeli's have no limits and it is only a matter of time before we and you are the next Gaza - the future is certain if nothing is done to change the course. Now - Who can stop them? Who will try? Even to try is to sign your death warrant. We have signed ours long ago.

The occult is a plural field - it has room for many practitioners, including escapism, healing trauma, harmless delusion or in their own way making the world a warmer, better place, even if you don't appreciate their attitude, approach or non-seriousness, it is still valuable to the magical collective that it remains plural and non-monolithic - because concentration and seriousness for an entire collective only ends in totalitarianism, elitism, fascism or worse. Magic can and does raze entire countries to enact ancient prophecies or political or economic aims which are their own species of magic. We've infiltrated political parties and the RPG community, challenge the FBI and openly threaten our politicians - we're designated as terrorists and extremists, though neither of those terms have a legal definition, it's a fun catch-all that is its own magic. We didn't set out to be such- those are labels they apply to us.

You should be grateful for those who employ magic for personal entertainment. From our perspective, if you're not willing to do what it takes to use magic in a war for the aeon and kill or self-sacrifice yourself to stop the holocaust then you are not hard enough for us either. So, I think the occult, will always be on a spectrum and you should be careful what you ask for. Because the Devil is never far away. Moderation is the best way.

Well, sovereignty has left the building. We arent talking about dogma and hate here. Magick doesnt do anything. People do. People with beliefs that harden into dogma are the problem, not magick, not magickal groups. To put all that into one bucket for an agenda is lazy.

 

[Rynnshng]

What a strange statement. As useful as the others you have made in other threads. I'm not inclined to accept your shallow understanding handicapped by silly blinkers that direct personal experience is somehow irrelevant, and that magic is somehow not magic. Maybe I should put you in a bucket.

 

[Toz_]

I’m Deviating about the subject, but religious thoughts seek salvation, purity and strength or whatever bullshit you want shove it down.
Magick is just a tool to you achieve a goal, those ideas of illumination, power etc is more a result of ego speaking “I’m better than this group”. The fact everyone is blinded by their beliefs and nobody can really prove what’s is the meaning of universe, if Magick really exists and how it works etc…

Also the fact you disagree or dislike actions of a certain group of people doesn’t make that group weak. Also the same way u perceive others as weak ppl also can see you as week, specially when you rant about your bias and prejudice.

Post automatically merged: Today at 7:32 AM

isn’t weak behaviour you criticize people that fighting against depression or “negative vibes” and to the point of come here for validation seeking and ego boosting?