Magical Rules of the Universe

[Spiritual doctor]

Abstinence is Christian bullshit. Use a bit of logic: If everything is "god" creation and everything needs to be part of god including demons, then if god is "pure" everything should also be considered pure. Do not roll in the mud trying to keep Christian contradictions and views while doing magic cuz just makes you lose time.

The Septenaries are opinions from the author, everything that is overly religious you can ignore. God this and that ... is all bs nobody has true knowledge how magic, universe and "god" works.

Focus on the nomina barbara, sigils and possible offices of each spirit on the procedure described by the book like Aphorism 17 ahead.

I like to use anti-dusk chalk and draw on the floor the sigils, also you can use the techniques from The Sworn Book of Honorius and Lesser key of solomon to aid you on the invocation. the invocation is better done when you are in a silent place to avoid distractions, you can write the invocation on a paper and read.

Use an app to know the planetary hours.

My goal is not about invoking barbaric name and drawing sigils only but the goal is getting the desired result so to get the desired result you must follow real magic rules not rules of magical philosophies because philosophy have no end there are thousands philosopher rises in each magical generations so follow the rules of real magic that equal to the rule of universe. Every things in universe have its opposite you can not mix purity with dirtiness both have their own laws and they both have different application according to the law of universe.

 

[Toz_]

My goal is not about invoking barbaric name and drawing sigils only but the goal is getting the desired result so to get the desired result you must follow real magic rules not rules of magical philosophies because philosophy have no end there are thousands philosopher rises in each magical generations so follow the rules of real magic that equal to the rule of universe. Every things in universe have its opposite you can not mix purity with dirtiness both have their own laws and they both have different application according to the law of universe.

There is no rules. If you think in a certain way, why would chaos magick (psychological paradigm) work and "spirit" magick (spiritual paradigm) also work? If you start to use logic on magick you will be able to reduce it to its essence, belief itself, not some objective law "out there." Same thing happens when you apply logic to dualism, this idea that everything in the universe has an opposite. Science doesn't back this up: in physics, charge is a spectrum from negative to positive with zero right in the middle, not two rival forces; temperature is just molecular motion, so "cold" isn't a thing fighting "hot," it's just less energy, meaning "cold" doesn't technically exist as its own entity; even matter and antimatter aren't opposites in the poetic sense, they're mirror states that annihilate into energy when they meet, not eternal rivals locked in balance. And not every "thing" in the universe has an opposite, some things exist on their own, like a rock or a number. What sound like opposites are usually two ends of a scale, or one is really just the absence of the other, like dark being the absence of light, not light's rival. So "opposite" is more about how our minds sort things than a real law of nature or physics. Try to abandon metaphysical dualism, same way you'd abandon a fixed paradigm in magick, and see things in a different perspective.

 

[Spiritual doctor]

There is no rules. If you think in a certain way, why would chaos magick (psychological paradigm) work and "spirit" magick (spiritual paradigm) also work? If you start to use logic on magick you will be able to reduce it to its essence, belief itself, not some objective law "out there." Same thing happens when you apply logic to dualism, this idea that everything in the universe has an opposite. Science doesn't back this up: in physics, charge is a spectrum from negative to positive with zero right in the middle, not two rival forces; temperature is just molecular motion, so "cold" isn't a thing fighting "hot," it's just less energy, meaning "cold" doesn't technically exist as its own entity; even matter and antimatter aren't opposites in the poetic sense, they're mirror states that annihilate into energy when they meet, not eternal rivals locked in balance. And not every "thing" in the universe has an opposite, some things exist on their own, like a rock or a number. What sound like opposites are usually two ends of a scale, or one is really just the absence of the other, like dark being the absence of light, not light's rival. So "opposite" is more about how our minds sort things than a real law of nature or physics. Try to abandon metaphysical dualism, same way you'd abandon a fixed paradigm in magick, and see things in a different perspect

There is no rules. If you think in a certain way, why would chaos magick (psychological paradigm) work and "spirit" magick (spiritual paradigm) also work? If you start to use logic on magick you will be able to reduce it to its essence, belief itself, not some objective law "out there." Same thing happens when you apply logic to dualism, this idea that everything in the universe has an opposite. Science doesn't back this up: in physics, charge is a spectrum from negative to positive with zero right in the middle, not two rival forces; temperature is just molecular motion, so "cold" isn't a thing fighting "hot," it's just less energy, meaning "cold" doesn't technically exist as its own entity; even matter and antimatter aren't opposites in the poetic sense, they're mirror states that annihilate into energy when they meet, not eternal rivals locked in balance. And not every "thing" in the universe has an opposite, some things exist on their own, like a rock or a number. What sound like opposites are usually two ends of a scale, or one is really just the absence of the other, like dark being the absence of light, not light's rival. So "opposite" is more about how our minds sort things than a real law of nature or physics. Try to abandon metaphysical dualism, same way you'd abandon a fixed paradigm in magick, and see things in a different perspective

If chaos and legion encounter who will win what i mean legion is a system gathered and assembled thing according to rule so who will win if gathered and assemble thing face the chaos one or the separated selfs?

 

[Yazata]

Split off from

The Arbatel - Pre-work and preparations and modifications

Hello all of you interesting folks. Through the various strange turns of life I have become interested in the Arbatel. I have had other projects but am currently reading it (Joseph H. Peterson translation) and plan to read it again more slowly in the future. I had originally been excited to read...

wizardforums.com

 

[Toz_]

If chaos and legion encounter who will win what i mean legion is a system gathered and assembled thing according to rule so who will win if gathered and assemble thing face the chaos one or the separated selfs?

There is no fight to referee here. If chaos and legion is both just paradigms, ways a mind organize belief, then asking who win is like asking does addition beat subtraction, it don't make sense cuz neither one is an agent with fists to swing. You gave legion and chaos a body and a will they don't have, that's the mistake, you turned a method into a soldier.

And notice this question just bring back the same dualism I already tore apart in the last post. I said opposites ain't really rivals locked in eternal balance, charge ain't hot fighting cold, matter and antimatter just annihilate not "battle" each other. So why now you asking who wins between chaos and order like they two armies on a field?

Also "win" is not defined so the question is empty. Win means produce better result, win means last longer, win means dominate the other paradigm in your head? You never say, so whatever answer someone give you they just picking the definition that make their side win, that's not logic that's just choosing the outcome first then backfilling the reason.

And the setup itself already assume the answer: you say legion is "gathered and assembled according to rule" like that automatically make it stronger, but that's the exact thing you supposed to prove not something you get to assume for free. That's circular, you asking a question that already contain its own conclusion hidden inside.

Last thing, you mixing three different "chaos" and calling it one word. Chaos as a magickal paradigm (belief based, psychological), chaos as cosmic primordial state, and legion as a specific mythic entity, these ain't the same register, so the question is really three questions wearing one costume, no wonder it got no clean answer.

Real answer if you strip the fallacy: nothing win cuz nothing is fighting. Structure and non-structure is just two lenses a practitioner pick up depending on what they trying to do, one lens don't beat the other, you just put one down and pick up the other one when it useful.

 

[leodaleius]

real spiritual doctors will say what spiritual doctor said, anyone can do chaos magic, not everyone can do magic magic magic, (more like no one unless he not necessarily only human)

 

[Spiritual doctor]

There is no fight to referee here. If chaos and legion is both just paradigms, ways a mind organize belief, then asking who win is like asking does addition beat subtraction, it don't make sense cuz neither one is an agent with fists to swing. You gave legion and chaos a body and a will they don't have, that's the mistake, you turned a method into a soldier.

And notice this question just bring back the same dualism I already tore apart in the last post. I said opposites ain't really rivals locked in eternal balance, charge ain't hot fighting cold, matter and antimatter just annihilate not "battle" each other. So why now you asking who wins between chaos and order like they two armies on a field?

Also "win" is not defined so the question is empty. Win means produce better result, win means last longer, win means dominate the other paradigm in your head? You never say, so whatever answer someone give you they just picking the definition that make their side win, that's not logic that's just choosing the outcome first then backfilling the reason.

And the setup itself already assume the answer: you say legion is "gathered and assembled according to rule" like that automatically make it stronger, but that's the exact thing you supposed to prove not something you get to assume for free. That's circular, you asking a question that already contain its own conclusion hidden inside.

Last thing, you mixing three different "chaos" and calling it one word. Chaos as a magickal paradigm (belief based, psychological), chaos as cosmic primordial state, and legion as a specific mythic entity, these ain't the same register, so the question is really three questions wearing one costume, no wonder it got no clean answer.

Real answer if you strip the fallacy: nothing win cuz nothing is fighting. Structure and non-structure is just two lenses a practitioner pick up depending on what they trying to do, one lens don't beat the other, you just put one down and pick up the other one when it useful.

I respect your idea but i do not believe in your idea called "no rule" because you follow one of the rule of magic called "belief " with the cover name chaos but you follow only the first rule alone and ignore the other rules of magic. So how one can hope full result of magic from system which follow only one rule and ignore the others rules of magic?

 

[Robert Ramsay]

real spiritual doctors will say what spiritual doctor said, anyone can do chaos magic, not everyone can do magic magic magic, (more like no one unless he not necessarily only human)

Chaos magic is "magic magic magic". Magical systems are tools, and the only reason there is an argument in this thread is that there are people thinking that their tools are the thing itself.

Post automatically merged: Sunday at 1:11 PM

I respect your idea but i do not believe in your idea called "no rule" because you follow one of the rule of magic called "belief " with the cover name chaos but you follow only the first rule alone and ignore the other rules of magic. So how one can hope full result of magic from system which follow only one rule and ignore the others rules of magic?

This makes no sense. If you consider there to be only one rule of magic, then there are no other rules to ignore.
What the arguments about all these different systems throws into sharp relief, is that no-one knows how magic works - only how their system works.

 

[Toz_]

I respect your idea but i do not believe in your idea called "no rule" because you follow one of the rule of magic called "belief " with the cover name chaos but you follow only the first rule alone and ignore the other rules of magic. So how one can hope full result of magic from system which follow only one rule and ignore the others rules of magic?

Respect you saying that but there's a mix up here. you calling "belief is the mechanism" a rule I "follow," but that's not what I said. I never said "belief" is a commandment I obey, I said it's the actual gears turning under any paradigm, spirit magick or chaos magick same thing, belief just the engine either way. That's a description of how the thing work, not a rule like "abstain before ritual" or "use dusk chalk." You turning a description into a prescription, that's a category mistake, like calling gravity "a rule Newton follows" instead of just how objects behave whether Newton believe in it or not.

So "you only follow one rule and ignore the others" don't land, cuz I ain't picking belief out a rulebook and skipping the rest, I'm saying belief is what's actually happening underneath whatever rulebook anybody using, including the Septenaries and whatever else. Saying "no objective law out there" ain't the same as "no rule exist period," it's saying the rules people write down (Septenaries, oppositions, purity laws) are constructed frameworks, useful maybe, but not carved into the universe like gravity is.

Also this whole question assume there's a fixed checklist of "rules of magic" out there and if you skip any of em you can't get "full result." But that's exactly the thing that's unproven, same problem as the chaos vs legion question. You asserting a complete rulebook exist and I'm failing it, without ever showing the rulebook real or complete in the first place. That's not a counter argument, that's just restating your premise like it already win.

And "how can you hope for full result" is loaded too, cuz "full result" compared to what baseline? Nobody defined what full result even mean, so the question already assume there's a maximum score card for magic that we both suppose to be measuring against. Show me that scorecard first, then we can talk about who's ignoring what.

---
But to let clear. I'm just trying apply logic to the practice and used chaos magick as an example.

 

[ewiz]

I don't think we're anywhere near figuring out some universal set of rules for how all this works. It may not even be possible to do so. What matters is that it does work. Whether you're a chaos magician, a tribal shaman, or a christian priest, your magic can be equally effective. One isn't objectively more effective than another, but they can be subjectively better or worse, very much so. The only way you can learn what works better for you subjectively is not from the armchair, it's from within the circle. I always try to recommend people start practicing as soon as possible, because you learn so much more from doing the work than you do from reading and thinking about how it works.

 

[Firetree]

A total misinterpretation . 'Theory' ... not 'rules' .

At a certain stage of development (in some Orders ) they want to gauge your level of development ( this usually comes at some later advanced stage ) so far and want to see , or suggest you 'get together ' or some even want a thesis on

Your magical theory of the Universe . That is how YOU operate within your own system in relation to the physical world and its energies . It should have its own internal validity reason and logic and be self-supporting . But of course not all are the same .

So any one set of rules for magick or the magicians universe is something that comes from 'outside of an advanced magical perspective '. Even physicists note the Universe has varied 'rules' due to changes in; observation , temperature , EM fields and gravity .

Post automatically merged: Sunday at 11:13 PM

My goal is not about invoking barbaric name and drawing sigils only but the goal is getting the desired result so to get the desired result you must follow real magic rules not rules of magical philosophies because philosophy have no end there are thousands philosopher rises in each magical generations so follow the rules of real magic that equal to the rule of universe. Every things in universe have its opposite you can not mix purity with dirtiness both have their own laws and they both have different application according to the law of universe.

Can you explain 'dirtiness' and 'purity' according to the 'laws of the Universe ' ?

 

[Spiritual doctor]

Respect you saying that but there's a mix up here. you calling "belief is the mechanism" a rule I "follow," but that's not what I said. I never said "belief" is a commandment I obey, I said it's the actual gears turning under any paradigm, spirit magick or chaos magick same thing, belief just the engine either way. That's a description of how the thing work, not a rule like "abstain before ritual" or "use dusk chalk." You turning a description into a prescription, that's a category mistake, like calling gravity "a rule Newton follows" instead of just how objects behave whether Newton believe in it or not.

So "you only follow one rule and ignore the others" don't land, cuz I ain't picking belief out a rulebook and skipping the rest, I'm saying belief is what's actually happening underneath whatever rulebook anybody using, including the Septenaries and whatever else. Saying "no objective law out there" ain't the same as "no rule exist period," it's saying the rules people write down (Septenaries, oppositions, purity laws) are constructed frameworks, useful maybe, but not carved into the universe like gravity is.

Also this whole question assume there's a fixed checklist of "rules of magic" out there and if you skip any of em you can't get "full result." But that's exactly the thing that's unproven, same problem as the chaos vs legion question. You asserting a complete rulebook exist and I'm failing it, without ever showing the rulebook real or complete in the first place. That's not a counter argument, that's just restating your premise like it already win.

And "how can you hope for full result" is loaded too, cuz "full result" compared to what baseline? Nobody defined what full result even mean, so the question already assume there's a maximum score card for magic that we both suppose to be measuring against. Show me that scorecard first, then we can talk about who's ignoring what.

---
But to let clear. I'm just trying apply logic to the practice and used chaos magick as an example.

So why belief is the only gear and why not purity can not be another gear so you only think in one way let me ask you only using belief as gear can you summon spirit, jinn and demons and using chaos magic or no rule magic can you make a jinn or demon to be under your control and if you want sending him for any purpose also using no rule magic or belief only magic can you talk with spiritual entities or can you talk with spirit of dead using the body of someone or can you do exorcism or talking directly to the possessing demon if you can or before if you have experience with those all my questions only using chaos magic or belief only as main gear magic tell me the truth

Post automatically merged: Monday at 4:32 PM

I don't think we're anywhere near figuring out some universal set of rules for how all this works. It may not even be possible to do so. What matters is that it does work. Whether you're a chaos magician, a tribal shaman, or a christian priest, your magic can be equally effective. One isn't objectively more effective than another, but they can be subjectively better or worse, very much so. The only way you can learn what works better for you subjectively is not from the armchair, it's from within the circle. I always try to recommend people start practicing as soon as possible, because you learn so much more from doing the work than you do from reading and thinking about how it works.

You are right but i reject out chaos magic from your list chaos magic for me its result only brain psychology i categorized in to psychology not magic because of lack of material result

Post automatically merged: Monday at 4:50 PM

I don't think we're anywhere near figuring out some universal set of rules for how all this works. It may not even be possible to do so. What matters is that it does work. Whether you're a chaos magician, a tribal shaman, or a christian priest, your magic can be equally effective. One isn't objectively more effective than another, but they can be subjectively better or worse, very much so. The only way you can learn what works better for you subjectively is not from the armchair, it's from within the circle. I always try to recommend people start practicing as soon as possible, because you learn so much more from doing the work than you do from reading and thinking about how it works.

You are right but i reject out chaos magic from your list chaos magic for me its result only brain psychology i categorized in to psychology not magic because of lack of material result

Chaos magic is "magic magic magic". Magical systems are tools, and the only reason there is an argument in this thread is that there are people thinking that their tools are the thing itself.

Post automatically merged: Sunday at 1:11 PM

This makes no sense. If you consider there to be only one rule of magic, then there are no other rules to ignore.
What the arguments about all these different systems throws into sharp relief, is that no-one knows how magic works - only how their system works.

That is the reason most modern magics result is worse, small or internal result only, much effort and get little result, even back fire and unintended result happen, because the caster follow philosophy of magic or his own theory but those casters follow the actual frame of magic they not get failure, they get the exact magnitude of their intention, their spell not distracted by anyone who do his own theory and the result can stay for long believe or not this is true

 

[Toz_]

You are moving the goalpost. You still ain't shown me no rulebook, you just swapped questions when the last one didn't land. the chaos vs legion, then "you ignore other rules," now "why belief not purity," then demand for proof, then redefining chaos magic outta existence. That's not debate, that's dodging every time you get cornered.

Purity ain't outside belief, it's a content OF belief. As I said before: "if god is pure and everything come from god then everything need to be pure", that's still a premise somebody believing first, then following logic on top of. You can't hand purity a free pass from belief when purity only got force cuz someone believe it true. That's special pleading, giving one rule immunity from the same reduction everything else gotta go through.

Asking me to prove I summoned a demon is a different question than whether the logic hold. Me never doing the ritual don't make "belief is the mechanism" false, same way me never running the experiment don't make gravity false. That's asking for anecdote where we talking logic.

And calling chaos magic "just psychology, not real magic" the moment it's inconvenient that's no true Scotsman, plain and simple. You never gave one shared standard for "material result" that spirit magic pass and chaos magic fail, you just redefine the category so you don't gotta answer.

If you got a real answer, give it. Otherwise three dodges in, still no rulebook, still no definition, still nothing but belief wearing different clothes.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

You are right but i reject out chaos magic from your list chaos magic for me its result only brain psychology i categorized in to psychology not magic because of lack of material result

which is an hilarious statement as chaos magic is famous for being a results-based system.

That is the reason most modern magics result is worse, small or internal result only, much effort and get little result, even back fire and unintended result happen, because the caster follow philosophy of magic or his own theory but those casters follow the actual frame of magic they not get failure, they get the exact magnitude of their intention, their spell not distracted by anyone who do his own theory and the result can stay for long believe or not this is true

As @Toz_ says, you talk about things like 'the actual frame of magic' without saying what it is. I believe you have made the classic mistake of mistaking the map (your magical system) for the territory (magic itself). One of the six blind men grabbing a part of the elephant.

 

[Spiritual doctor]

No i am not

which is an hilarious statement as chaos magic is famous for being a results-based system.

As @Toz_ says, you talk about things like 'the actual frame of magic' without saying what it is. I believe you have made the classic mistake of mistaking the map (your magical system) for the territory (magic itself). One of the six blind men grabbing a part of the elephant.

No i am not one of the grabber but i am reply like being the elephant i am not judging anyone but i am reply the truth that happen in our magical world

 

[Spiritual doctor]

Your intention

You are moving the goalpost. You still ain't shown me no rulebook, you just swapped questions when the last one didn't land. the chaos vs legion, then "you ignore other rules," now "why belief not purity," then demand for proof, then redefining chaos magic outta existence. That's not debate, that's dodging every time you get cornered.

Purity ain't outside belief, it's a content OF belief. As I said before: "if god is pure and everything come from god then everything need to be pure", that's still a premise somebody believing first, then following logic on top of. You can't hand purity a free pass from belief when purity only got force cuz someone believe it true. That's special pleading, giving one rule immunity from the same reduction everything else gotta go through.

Asking me to prove I summoned a demon is a different question than whether the logic hold. Me never doing the ritual don't make "belief is the mechanism" false, same way me never running the experiment don't make gravity false. That's asking for anecdote where we talking logic.

And calling chaos magic "just psychology, not real magic" the moment it's inconvenient that's no true Scotsman, plain and simple. You never gave one shared standard for "material result" that spirit magic pass and chaos magic fail, you just redefine the category so you don't gotta answer.

If you got a real answer, give it. Otherwise three dodges in, still no rulebook, still no definition, still nothing but belief wearing diff

In th

You are moving the goalpost. You still ain't shown me no rulebook, you just swapped questions when the last one didn't land. the chaos vs legion, then "you ignore other rules," now "why belief not purity," then demand for proof, then redefining chaos magic outta existence. That's not debate, that's dodging every time you get cornered.

Purity ain't outside belief, it's a content OF belief. As I said before: "if god is pure and everything come from god then everything need to be pure", that's still a premise somebody believing first, then following logic on top of. You can't hand purity a free pass from belief when purity only got force cuz someone believe it true. That's special pleading, giving one rule immunity from the same reduction everything else gotta go through.

Asking me to prove I summoned a demon is a different question than whether the logic hold. Me never doing the ritual don't make "belief is the mechanism" false, same way me never running the experiment don't make gravity false. That's asking for anecdote where we talking logic.

And calling chaos magic "just psychology, not real magic" the moment it's inconvenient that's no true Scotsman, plain and simple. You never gave one shared standard for "material result" that spirit magic pass and chaos magic fail, you just redefine the category so you don't gotta answer.

If you got a real answer, give it. Otherwise three dodges in, still no rulebook, still no definition, still nothing but belief wearing different clothes.

In this debete your intention for victory not for real discussion because you jumb some of my question and your opinion is against me or attack me like most materialist do

 

[Toz_]

Can I be honest? You claiming stuff you can't proof, the moment you say "that is the reason most modern magics result is worse" you gotta provide the data, what experiment you asked ppl to do, what's the sample size, how you managed to remove your own bias against certain practice before you drop a conclusion like that. Right now that's just a assertion wearing a lab coat, no different than me saying "chaos magic work better" with nothing behind it either.

And the goalpost moved again. first chaos magic was "real magic," then it wasn't magic at all just psychology, now suddenly you got a whole theory why "modern magics" result worse, casters who "follow philosophy" vs casters who "follow the actual frame." What frame? Who wrote it, where it's at? You keep pointing at this objective frame like it's sitting in a book somewhere everybody agreed on, but you never once showed it this whole conversation.

Not only that, the way you talk make it clear you got little to no knowledge about chaos magick, even grimoric tradition or magick period. You brought up "legion" like it's some order-concept to fight chaos, but that ain't a term from the grimoric tradition, that's something you pulled outta your ass and dropped in the conversation like it's established. The fact you don't even recognize common jargon like nomina barbara from the tradition you claiming authority on is even more revealing you talking about stuff you don't actually know.

Giving "chaos" agency like it's a combatant, then inventing "legion" outta nowhere to be its rival "order," all loaded on a christian dualistic worldview, that ain't a neutral logical position, that's a specific inherited frame you treating like universal law while telling other people they the ones who don't understand the "real rules."

 

[ewiz]

You are right but i reject out chaos magic from your list chaos magic for me its result only brain psychology i categorized in to psychology not magic because of lack of material result

This is an extreme misunderstanding and simplification of the chaos magic paradigm. In no way does chaos magic rely on the belief in a psychological model of magic. And in no way does it imply the results are purely psychological and not material. Anyone who claims otherwise is simply presenting their psychological model of magic with chaos magic tech thrown in. Read Peter Carroll, then go back and read Agrippa, and you can find many places where they're describing the exact same things with different words.

To claim that modern magic is somehow worse than your unknown "real magic rules" is pretty ridiculous and unwise. To respond to the question you posed about using belief alone can you do all these things, the answer is very much yes. To shorten a mile-long list of examples, Faith=Belief, and the magical actions of the priest of every religion happen almost exclusively through their faith in the power of their god. As does the summoning of spirits based on the traditional methods outlined in the western grimoires; it is through your faith in the power of god that the spirits appear, not by any other means.

Whatever it is you're trying to find with your own personal working model of the universe and magical system, at it's core is a requirement of Faith/Belief for it to be workable.

 

[Spiritual doctor]

Most of you wants to know what rules that i said " magical rules" let me list some rules that i know from actual magic frame and from my study of many magical manuscripts from around the world from all the core rule before a magician to be magician must learn
1, knowing the rule how nature work ; magic began how nature work this means basically knowing the behavior of the four elements fire, wind, water, earth every created things are exist as mixed from those elements or as single element
2, knowing the rule how those elements affect nature of human, animal, herbs, things etc even thought, thinking
3, knowing the rule how those elements connected with alphabets words and materials and generally their natural correspondence
4, knowing the rule how each elements connected with zodiac sign, stars, deities, religious verses, names of angels, names of God, names of lower spirit (those are as used as code to express nature)
5, knowing the rule how to increase or decrease and the size of those elements and how to transfer those elements to affect or to change the nature of something even to change the thought of others for purpose using their correspondence to herbs materials words verses, names etc
6, knowing the rule what things need for increasing decreasing and transferring those elements this means purity, offering, may be also belief etc
7, knowing the rule how much times the spell, names, verses etc must be repetitively uttered or written and in what day and time the magic get most effective the other days and time this two knowed by using the correspondence of those elements with numbers and with stars, and zodiac

N.B i write this for discussion purpose trying to practice witu guess and without the actual correspondence rule that create mistake even the magic will become dangerous

 

[Toz_]

Most of you wants to know what rules that i said " magical rules" let me list some rules that i know from actual magic frame and from my study of many magical manuscripts from around the world from all the core rule before a magician to be magician must learn
1, knowing the rule how nature work ; magic began how nature work this means basically knowing the behavior of the four elements fire, wind, water, earth every created things are exist as mixed from those elements or as single element
2, knowing the rule how those elements affect nature of human, animal, herbs, things etc even thought, thinking
3, knowing the rule how those elements connected with alphabets words and materials and generally their natural correspondence
4, knowing the rule how each elements connected with zodiac sign, stars, deities, religious verses, names of angels, names of God, names of lower spirit (those are as used as code to express nature)
5, knowing the rule how to increase or decrease and the size of those elements and how to transfer those elements to affect or to change the nature of something even to change the thought of others for purpose using their correspondence to herbs materials words verses, names etc
6, knowing the rule what things need for increasing decreasing and transferring those elements this means purity, offering, may be also belief etc
7, knowing the rule how much times the spell, names, verses etc must be repetitively uttered or written and in what day and time the magic get most effective the other days and time this two knowed by using the correspondence of those elements with numbers and with stars, and zodiac

N.B i write this for discussion purpose trying to practice witu guess and without the actual correspondence rule that create mistake even the magic will become dangerous

Just to make clear to you dude, taking ideas out your ass without a real source don't give it credibility, and for something to be a rule of the universe it needs to be proven, verifiable by anybody who test it, not just claimed. Take gravity for example, everyone can experience it, there a whole corpus of study, replicated experiment, math that predict it, that's what make it a rule. You just dropping a list here with zero of that.

And notice something, this list you just posted, elements connect to zodiac, elements connect to angels and god names, elements connect to alphabets and correspondence tables, this ain't "the actual magic frame" you discovered separate from philosophy, this literally IS the same kind of correspondence philosophy from guys like Agrippa and every other grimoric author you'd probably call "opinion of the author" if their name was on it. You said earlier ignore the philosophy, focus on real rules, but this whole list is philosophy, somebody's theory of how correspondence work, written in manuscripts by humans who also disagreed with each other across traditions. You didn't escape philosophy, you just didn't credit where you copied it from.

Also, you undercutting yourself in your own post, you wrote this "for discussion purpose trying to practice witu guess and without the actual correspondence rule that create mistake." That's you admitting you're guessing and don't actually have the confirmed rule yourself. So which is it, you got the real rules of the universe or you're guessing? Can't be both. That N.B. is basically you conceding the whole argument while still calling it a rule in the same post.