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Do results matter more than belief in occult practice?

fedighassen

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I've been thinking about something that I rarely see discussed directly.

How important is belief actually supposed to be in magic?

For example, suppose someone performs a ritual while being skeptical about the spirit, system, cosmology, or explanation behind it — but the ritual consistently produces the result they were looking for.

Would you consider that person a successful practitioner even if they don't really believe in the system behind what they're doing?

On the other hand, someone might have complete faith in a system, understand all of its symbolism and correspondences, and perform everything correctly, but rarely get tangible results.

Personally, I find the distinction between belief, explanation, and result interesting.

Maybe belief itself is part of the mechanism. Maybe spirits objectively exist. Maybe rituals affect the subconscious. Maybe several explanations can be true at once.

But from a practical point of view, does the explanation even matter if the method works?

I'm curious how people here approach this.

Do you judge a magical system mainly by:

  • the results you personally get from it,
  • the tradition and theory behind it,
  • spiritual experiences during practice,
  • consistency over time,
  • or something else?
And have you ever had a ritual work even though you were genuinely skeptical that it would?
 

Calcinatio

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I'd say I judge it using all four of the options you provided. If you don't believe you'll get, or could get, results, why try in the first place?
But also, once you get into a practice, some devotion or rhythm or whatever, it's sometimes less about "I believe this" and more like chipping away at something like an artifact or a story you can see..
Once you start getting some kinda of consistent results and keep doing it, you usually lose whatever doubt you had hanging over you about the practice. Not that that means now you believe in all the lore available.
At least that's how things went kinda back and forth with me towards the beginnings.
🤷
 

Robert Ramsay

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I've been thinking about something that I rarely see discussed directly.

How important is belief actually supposed to be in magic?

For example, suppose someone performs a ritual while being skeptical about the spirit, system, cosmology, or explanation behind it — but the ritual consistently produces the result they were looking for.

Would you consider that person a successful practitioner even if they don't really believe in the system behind what they're doing?

On the other hand, someone might have complete faith in a system, understand all of its symbolism and correspondences, and perform everything correctly, but rarely get tangible results.

Personally, I find the distinction between belief, explanation, and result interesting.

Maybe belief itself is part of the mechanism. Maybe spirits objectively exist. Maybe rituals affect the subconscious. Maybe several explanations can be true at once.

But from a practical point of view, does the explanation even matter if the method works?

I'm curious how people here approach this.

Do you judge a magical system mainly by:

  • the results you personally get from it,
  • the tradition and theory behind it,
  • spiritual experiences during practice,
  • consistency over time,
  • or something else?
And have you ever had a ritual work even though you were genuinely skeptical that it would?
IMO the mechanism of magic takes place below the level of your conscious mind. Belief is a way to program that level, in the same way as you program yourself to ride a bike.

You will hear magicians say "It works even if you don't believe in it" and this too is a belief system. So even if you deny it consciously, it is still possible that at the level that really counts, you really want it to happen. You will know whether this is true because you will get results 🙂

I believe no explanation of magic can be complete if it depends on a single magical system - each system is a map, not a territory.
 

HoldAll

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Chaos magic involves exploiting belief as a tool which in theory affords you the opportunity to use any system to your advantage. The philosophical rationale is that any belief is basically random, just as your personality - if you'd grown up under different circumstances or had different aversions and predilections, you'd hold different convictions, denied or affirmed the existence of god/the afterlife, clung to the One and Only Unassailable Truth, laughed at the very idea of that, etc. While I agree in principle, I've found it as good as impossible to accomplish in practice. Some belief systems I find so abhorrent I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole. For example, do I really want to try out the mindset of a fundie Christian for a week as an exercise as Peter J. Carroll recommends? Thanks, but no thanks. The same goes for systems that look implausible, have logical holes in them, or run contrary to historical facts.

However, what I'm able to manage is using a system I may not be wholly convinced of but somehow find appealing, so for the duration of the ritual, I'll be 100% confident that it'll work, which I think is more important than adopting an arbitrary belief system for a specific purpose. If I get results, my belief in that system will be strengthened; if I don't, I may discard it unless I have a suspicion that I made a mistake.

Another aspect is the incredible potency of narratives and tradition. Some systems have such a powerful backstory that you can't help being in awe of them, for example the Greek Magical Papyri - over 1,500 years old, discovered in Egypt by an Armenian antiquities dealer in 1827, sold to various museums all over Europe, first ignored by most scholars, then rediscovered again by a younger generation of classicists, what's not to like? Some people simply find the mystique of certain magical systems compelling which keeps them going although their results may not be so great at first. Others are so infatuated with certain authors that they're completely taken in by their opinions and believe every word they write. It's all part of the magic.

What happens if you do something you don't really believe in? You're going to do it half-heartedly. It will undermine your efforts. Why perform a ritual you secretly think is futile or ludicrous? How can you believe in your success if you doubt the very premises your results are to be based on?
 

MacLu69

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Good dreams. Proper rest, the practice of silence. The practice of silence, in particular, promotes the development of magical power and healthy teeth. Healthy teeth are essential for the accumulation of magical power. Without magical power - Engaging in occultism is not recommended.
If you are not a magician, no one will give you magical power; this is the prerogative of magical castes... Chaos magic has its own consequences. If you want to live long, it's not recommended to practice chaos magic. Mystical, mysterious forces operate there, which magicians call "them."
For example, you've successfully created a ritual or rite called the Alatyr of Power. "Them" There's a counteracting force at work, which they call magic. They're trying to disrupt it. What you've accomplished is the force of order. Therefore, you need to learn to interact with both the forces of chaos and the forces of order, that is, to be somewhere in the middle and be able to balance and regulate them...Example. Let's say you've cleaned up a forest somewhere—you've released fish into a lake and restored the trees and bushes. A resisting force called the force of chaos has begun to act—it's already become a mini-ecosystem. And then, a few days later, a garbage truck arrives and tries to dump the trash in the very spot where you've cleaned up. These so-called forces—they—let's say we run up to the driver and say, "What are you doing?" But he's unconscious, having driven several kilometers from his spot. And he doesn't remember how he got there. That's how the force works—they—through the people around us—try to knock us down with the forces of chaos.
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If you, while practicing magic, have moved some worlds into some probabilities of reality or versions of your life, you can find your way back by calling upon the chains of the great teachers of humanity - for example, by quoting this mantra You can return back to your world
–AUM-KRISHNA-RATHA-RAMA-SITA-CHRISTOS- EVENTA-KALKI-AVATARA-MAITREYA-MESSIAH-FORAM...
 
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KjEno186

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I was reading in Reality Transurfing recently about "belief," and the author made the point that it can have a negative effect because it allows for doubt. He made a similar point regarding "confidence," that striving for it can actually be counterproductive. The book explores the contrast between the intellectual mind and feeling heart. To oversimplify it for the point, one cannot normally force belief or confidence upon one's heart through which one has access to the "alternatives space," the various as yet non-manifest possible futures. I would suggest that this does not negate the power of belief, but the mind cannot logically impose belief upon the heart with any sure degree of success.

Results matter, there is no doubt about it. I would caution that this, too, isn't foolproof. Paranormal researchers have reported that despite having witnessed inexplicable events, their minds resort to incredulity, searching for logical causes and "scientific" explanations, even later doubting that they had experienced anything out of the ordinary.

What Reality Transurfing recommends is unity of heart and mind. The problem for most people is that the mind is constantly shouting over the heart. To alleviate this, one must reduce importance, which is somewhat analogous to the magical practice of avoiding lust for results. And a way to avoid lust for results is to act with intent. For example, it is common to do a ritual in order to find a job. Then what? Are you going to sit there and try to believe that you already have a job, that it just hasn't 'manifested' itself to you yet? Or are you going to go out and act with intent, to make room for the job you desired? This is all just playing with words, and that appeals to our logical minds. The point is, do the work with intent and try not to worry about the belief/confidence/doubt cycle. If the results aren't what you had in mind, reduce importance and laugh it off. Maybe that just wasn't your door to enter.
 

Pneuma_Purifier

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There’s a consistent pattern: more than 90% of people who take magic or energetic courses never develop confidence in their new abilities. When it’s time to practice, they hesitate, fail, and eventually quit.
 

Lurker

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Do you judge a magical system mainly by:

  • the results you personally get from it,

Of course, that's my #1 criteria.

  • the tradition and theory behind it,

No, although that may be what drew me to it in the first place.

  • spiritual experiences during practice,

Yes, but spiritual experiences are secondary to results.

  • consistency over time,

Of course.

  • or something else?
And have you ever had a ritual work even though you were genuinely skeptical that it would?

Tarot, occasionally, when my insecurities came to the surface during particular readings. I'm not skeptical of Tarot per se. It was Tarot that shocked me into seeing the reality of magic.

If there are no results, then why practice?
I'd say results are the entire point of doing this.

Exactly right.
 

beardedeldridge

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Belief is a powerful tool but isn’t the only way to get something done. Also just because someone “truly believes” something doesn’t mean there isn’t other factors that effect outcome. For example even if someone says that they believe it doesn’t mean there isn’t just as much doubt mixed in that is working against them.

*If there is NO success then I would not consider that a successful practice.

-Eld

**True and useful are not mutually dependent things.
 

Nembra

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I don't think you'll ever have any results if you don't believe in the practice at some level - though I don't think it has to necessarily be conscious faith. Belief is very much a part of the mechanism. On the other end, if you're not getting results then you're wrong about the theory, to put it bluntly. Everything objectively exists, so spirits as well. The question is what properties do they exactly have. The whole point of most rituals is to affect the unconscious mind.

My main criteria of judgment is how well a given theory predicts the results of practice. I'm really not very interested in systems that have no idea why are they working even if somehow they do.
 

MorganBlack

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Great stuff.

It's a difficult topic to talk about because I feel magic is a verb, and not so much a noun.

Belief for me, when starting out as someone with a secular brain, that looked something like "suspend disbelief and criticism while in ritual, then 'invoke often' until it all comes alive, then once alive (or contact is made, however you think of it) up your game progressively."

As a games industry art director, I spent many years researching human creativity because part of my job was to foster creative thinking among my teams. For our purposes, I feel "immersion" is a much better word. You don't "believe" in a movie you are watching, you just accept it as true while you're in the theater.

Simon Dyda, another grim trad magician, articulated a very similar view to my own in his oh-too-short chapbook 'The Wandering School of Secrets,' quoted below:

Reading his book was very confirming for me, and I was like, " Oh, thank goodness it's not just me saying this." There's long precedent here in African-American Conjure / Hoodoo. They usually don't go into trance either.

I have done very effective Daimonic sorcery with no trance. I happen to enjoy trance so to add it even when not necessary to feel like I am actually doing something. And of my most effective "empty-hand" and overnight sorcery was when I was head-deep in a vision from saying my standard morning prayers, but that needs more experimentation. I think maybe it's a force multiplier of some kind, but exactly why, I can't say for sure right now

-----------------------------------
The Wandering School of Secrets POV
-------------------------------------

A common misconception in modern occultism is that magic will only start working once the magician has overcome certain hurdles, such as learning to banish thought through meditation; correct breathing techniques; the building up or channelling of esoteric energies; physical and mental exhaustion; the use of narcotics; the study of psychology and/or neurology; the fortification of one’s will power; or by developing one’s ‘psychic’ abilities. Other supposed requisites include entering a trance state, or having an orgasm and then banishing any thoughts concerning the desired goal.

None of these things are necessary in magic. These hurdles have been imposed on magic by the mindset of late nineteenth and early twentieth century hipsters, a mindset which despite its spiritual and mystic pretensions was so anchored in rationalism that it could not believe that magic would work without a struggle. This mindset believed magic to be largely psychological in nature, that struggle had to be one concerned with consciousness and state of mind. The trendsetters of the so-called Occult Revival, rather than seeking out actual practitioners of Western magic, instead looked to Indian mysticism for inspiration, blending it with Western mysticism to create the fridge-raid soup of New Age flakery, neopagan pantomime, and pseudomasonic pomposity that was characteristic of twentieth century esotericism and occultism.

According to this mindset, for magic to be real it must be especially difficult; requiring a trained singlemindedness and focus and/or some means of bypassing the mind in order to transcend the laws of physics and ‘nudge probability’ in a desired direction. If at any point this becomes easy, it should immediately be made more difficult in order to succeed.

All such statements as these are self-defeating nonsense: no special powers of focus, concentration, and attention beyond those required to perform any other task are necessary, and to engage in any power struggle with one’s own mind is counterproductive and serves only to undermine the efficacy of the practitioner.

-----------

In traditional practices, magic is worked through an interaction between the magician and spirits, not through a struggle between the practitioner and their own mind. The magician need not hack their way through mental undergrowth in order to perform magic; instead, magic itself opens the way to magic magia viam aperit. The only mental tool the magician requires is the imagination.

The key word in this use of the imagination is immersion. Anyone who has immersed themselves in a novel or a poem has experienced this magical state of consciousness in which perception is altered and extended by the imagination.

Immersion is facilitated by story. When performing magic, the magician will be calling upon story of one sort or another, be it in the form of verses from Holy Scripture, the deeds of deities in mythology, or the use of their epithets. For this reason it is important to familiarise ourselves with the myths, legends, or scripture relevant to the spirits we are engaging with.

We will talk more of the use of myth and story in magic anon. Of equal importance to the use of the imagination, the magician should avoid the pitfall of rationalisation when performing magic.

Many books on magic contain theories of magic which often amount to magician apologetics for either a medieval religious or a modern rationalist audience and are of no practical use beyond reassuring readers that the practice of magic is a sane and acceptable pursuit.

We learn from experience that magic works, but we cannot demonstrate why it works any more than a physicist can demonstrate why the laws of physics work the way they do.

It is far more productive to accept magic on its own terms, regardless of how ‘unscientific’ those terms might appear to be. The magician is not required to believe in magic for it to work; instead, the magician should disregard the question of belief entirely.

-----------
 

Robert Ramsay

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Very interesting! I would say that immersion creates the same state as 'belief'.
Post automatically merged:

They are two mental paths to activate the same mechanism.
 

MorganBlack

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Very interesting! I would say that immersion creates the same state as 'belief'.
Agreed. But i think it's also has progressive aspect that the trad partices use, a mind - to-body connetion. "As a man thinketh," etc. is the good start, then later, 'belief' is best done in your bones, I feel.

I think the way it works: belief and expectation (both of which are a bit more of the initial cerebral game ) gets woven / hammered into your body-emotions-memory (some of your 'body 'is what you choose to have around you, the tools, materia, icons, the local traditions, imagery, specific rites, etc. It is all the One Thing. ) which shape you and changes the tenor or quality of what in earlier times was called your 'soul' or 'heart' or 'nephesh.' And a change in your body-based character or "soul" elicits a response of paranormal reflexivity (see Hansen's 'The Trickster and the Paranormal' here) and changes the nature, quality, and character of the Daimonic / World Soul / Imaginal that appears around you. So assholes get asshole manifestations. This I know well from when I was much younger.
 

BBMage

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From my experience belief isn't required as long as your open to "what if". I didn't believe in any magic or ritual work when I started but I still had really strong results. If your able to suspend judgement while you perform the ritual you will have even better results. I spent the first couple years trying to prove it doesn't work, but while doing the ritual I was committed to what I was doing in the moment. You can journal your experience and analyze it later if that is what your mind needs, but essentially you are working with an archetypal language to communicate with the Soul of the World so it will still work if you don't fully believe in it.
 

Faria

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Would you consider that person a successful practitioner even if they don't really believe in the system behind what they're doing?

If a person is willing to look at some area of growth or gain and then attribute that to their magic, I'm likely to consider them successful unless they give me some obvious reason to think otherwise. People who practice magic but sneak around admitting that it's magic tend to fall into two categories:

1. Psuedointellectuals who want to whitewash all the weirdness from magic, and reduce it to psychology or even physics. These people tend to be into magic in a genuine sense, they're just embarrassed about it.

2. Frauds and con artists who use magical paraphernalia and discourse to sell themselves while mocking the believers.

Personally, I find the distinction between belief, explanation, and result interesting.

I don't think people get to pick their beliefs. You can pretend, but that's not the same and I don't think it's effective. If your beliefs are wrong and you encounter reason to change them, your brain will adapt even if your mouth insists against it.

No matter what your heartfelt deeply cherished beliefs might be, they're probably wrong. If they have to do with subjects like magic, your beliefs are guaranteed to be wrong and likely also exceedingly misinformed. And that goes for all the experts and everyone.

And have you ever had a ritual work even though you were genuinely skeptical that it would?

I am reminded of the many stories of New Ishtar Power and similar works. It's possible that nobody, not even the author, ever actually believed any of it. Yet I've heard endless success testimonials, online and IRL, and seen people using it while laughing about it.

The Necronomicon remains popular. Nobody believes any of that, not even that retro pseudo sumerian stuff. But people use it and it's a fairly respectable working if you do commit to it.

Ive seen people I take very seriously as magicians base their entire occult thing on video game lore.

Most of the work that appeals to me is based on characters and concepts from the Bible, a book practically designed to dare you to think of it as nonfiction. Those same things have got to be incomprehensible in other places and without immersion in Bible worldview from a young age. My world, my real belief about the world, is God and the Devil, the Soul, Judgment. I'm sure people in Nepal or Java have a whole other way of looking at things and probably have a hard time relating to Moses or Jacob or St. Peter in a ritual context.
 

Frater M.M.

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This is a great thread. I was going to say I'm mainly results-focused and that I "believe" in the moment and then after the fact I can sustain multiple (possibly conflicting) interpretations of what was going on in reality. However, I think on reflection "belief" isn't the right word here and that Morgan has given us a much better analysis of what I was trying to say:


As a games industry art director, I spent many years researching human creativity because part of my job was to foster creative thinking among my teams. For our purposes, I feel "immersion" is a much better word. You don't "believe" in a movie you are watching, you just accept it as true while you're in the theater.

....

It is far more productive to accept magic on its own terms, regardless of how ‘unscientific’ those terms might appear to be. The magician is not required to believe in magic for it to work; instead, the magician should disregard the question of belief entirely.

I'd say that in the moment of the magic act it's less about belief in the sense of "I believe that Thor is real" or "I believe that synchronicity exists" and more about immersion, investment, focus, sensation, embodiment, etc. It's more like a way of doing/thinking than actively holding a particular proposition to be true. So if I'm talking to Thor, I don't need to be telling myself that I believe he's real and that he'll help me achieve my goal of protection. I just talk to him, act within that situation as though he's there and ask for protection. Likewise with tarot, I don't need to be actively believing some theory about synchronicity while I'm doing it. I just take the draw and its message seriously in the moment. The point, for me, is to drop that whole layer of analysing what I believe is "really" going on and just do the thing.


But from a practical point of view, does the explanation even matter if the method works?

I'd say yes and no. If I can reliably get all the results I want from a particular working/operation, explanation is probably not that important. However, theories are handy for things like leverage and prediction. Maybe my results aren't that reliable or I want a different type of result or I want to try the same operation/ritual in a completely new kind of area or with a different tool or spirit, etc. In those cases, theory can be quite handy for tweaking the results or giving me some idea of what I can expect.
 

Firetree

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I've been thinking about something that I rarely see discussed directly.

How important is belief actually supposed to be in magic?

For example, suppose someone performs a ritual while being skeptical about the spirit, system, cosmology, or explanation behind it — but the ritual consistently produces the result they were looking for.

Would you consider that person a successful practitioner even if they don't really believe in the system behind what they're doing?

On the other hand, someone might have complete faith in a system, understand all of its symbolism and correspondences, and perform everything correctly, but rarely get tangible results.

Personally, I find the distinction between belief, explanation, and result interesting.

Maybe belief itself is part of the mechanism. Maybe spirits objectively exist. Maybe rituals affect the subconscious. Maybe several explanations can be true at once.

But from a practical point of view, does the explanation even matter if the method works?

I'm curious how people here approach this.

Do you judge a magical system mainly by:

  • the results you personally get from it,
  • the tradition and theory behind it,
  • spiritual experiences during practice,
  • consistency over time,
  • or something else?
And have you ever had a ritual work even though you were genuinely skeptical that it would?

I suspect we can never really know . Unless you can go back in time and not do the magick and then see if it manifests or not .

For me ... dont matter how it was that it worked .... as long as it did . What works is important ... that is ;one can know and use the technology , without fully understanding all the 'hows' ... actually a lot of science , including your phone works like this

I threw that one at AI ; '' Yes, modern technology often works successfully even when deep science does not yet fully understand all the fundamental mechanisms behind it. ''

;)
 
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