A big thank you to everyone for your responses. I started with a fairly simple question that arose from my reading of the first few pages of Phil Hine’s
Condensed Chaos. In it, he discusses reciprocity in relationships with spirits, and this idea had already struck a chord with me when I’d heard it elsewhere, though I’d never actually seen it explored in depth.
Your responses revealed far more nuances than I had imagined. So I’d like to revisit several points that particularly resonated with me.
spirits receive energy from us at some level from the attention, and the more attention and intent focused upon them, the more they receive
attention is the most important thing they get from us. I believe the more attention they get the more realized they become.
The idea that our attention and intention already constitute a form of energy offered to the spirits resonates deeply with me. This also gives offerings a different meaning: beyond their material or energetic content, the attention and presence with which they are made seem to be of central importance. In fact, beyond the material offering, I find myself thinking that this attention and presence may be the most important offering, while the material offering serves as a vehicle for them - a vehicle that, ultimately, may be more useful to us, helping to focus our attention and presence.
I've also received information that they seek to enjoy the material works through us when the relationships are close.
That’s probably the idea that resonated with me the most in your message. It ties in with some of the ideas I’ve come across in Phil Hine’s work regarding entities and gods, but also, on another level, with my own non-dualistic perspective: the idea that the cosmos or the Great Whole experiences the material world through the beings that compose it.
Worshipper, student, friend, all these different labels for relationships expect something a little different from the practitioner.
I appreciate the variety of relationship types you highlight.
That being said, one of the more practical ways of looking at most of the spirits is defining them by their drives. They don't care to have anything you can give them, but dealing with them is by itself aligning with their purpose.
And I particularly appreciate the perspective of “function” or “drive” presented here. Indeed, from this perspective, it becomes very easy for me to understand that a spirit, a god, or another entity might be:
=>
happy to be called upon to fulfill its function,
=>
happy to carry out its function, which manifests in the material world through us, that’s where we become its interface with the material world.
That is why we can say that it is
happy to help us:
I really do think that some spirits just want to help people, and by taking them seriously and accepting their help you are giving them what they want in return because any beneficent teacher wants their students to succeed.
=> because we allow it to fulfill itself.
All of this makes perfect sense to me. It’s crystal clear.
In other words, if we consider spirits through their functions or drives, asking them to fulfill what precisely corresponds to their nature => gives them an opportunity to express it and make it effective in the material world.
The spirit seeks to express its function. The human provides a situation and a channel for it to do so. And the human, in turn, benefits from that function.
This passage:
When you (...) pray to Michael for protection (...), your will becomes extension of his will, and in exchange his virtues become extension of your power.
was also extremely enlightening. It’s as simple as arithmetic, but without this way of putting it, I would have missed the point! By providing the mind with a situation in which it can act and fulfill its function, we in turn benefit from that function, which becomes like an “extension of our power.” That’s powerful, I love it.
giving you what you ask for usually is what the spirit wants anyway,
This sentence, too, had a powerful effect on me. Any slight discomfort I might have felt about addressing a spirit or a god vanished the moment I read it! There’s less friction. And I feel that, with this understanding within me, the requests I make of them from now on will be more effective, because I now see that our wills are aligned!
human relations are based on a more subtle mutuality, on recognition, support, the act of seeing one another. With some spirits, I am convinced we "trade" the same things
I really liked this analogy with human relationships, too. It appeals to the emotional side and to that indefinable element that’s part of every relationship. And, in a way, that makes these relationships with spirits… very human! I liked that.
@Firetree, I also found your more psychological and theurgical model interesting, one in which the entities that make up your psyche contribute to your evolution, while you invite them to participate in that same transformation. In this context, the relationship is no longer simply an exchange of services: the different parts evolve together!
Maybe reciprocity isn’t always about what we give, but simply about sharing our presence.
This sentence is essential to me: reciprocity isn’t necessarily a quid pro quo. A relationship can be reciprocal simply because each person is present and fully engaged in it.
The continuity of the bond, attentiveness, and the shared experience of being present can be enough, just as in certain human relationships where no one keeps track of what each person gives or receives. It is profoundly simple, true, and beautiful.
READING ALL YOUR RESPONSES, I understand that reciprocity isn’t necessarily a transaction offered in exchange for the help received. It is nourished by the attention and presence we give to the spirits. And I remain convinced that offerings serve primarily as a vehicle for our attention and presence, since it is said that one can perform magic without any props.
As a result, reciprocity is already inherent in the relationship itself, and then in the action desired by both them and us. It can further extend to the possibility, for them, of acting upon or experiencing the material world through us - we, as humans, becoming their interface - AND to the benefit we, in turn, derive from their action: the expression of their own nature or function becomes, as it were, an “extension of our power.”
I’m still at the very beginning of my own relationship with spirits. Sometimes I receive what seem to be messages or intuitions, and sometimes I sense a presence, but I still can’t clearly tell whether it’s one spirit or several, nor exactly how the exchange between us takes shape.
Your responses, however, give me much more guidance for observing this relationship with greater awareness during my practice. My initial question was very simple, but your stories and insights have greatly enriched it. I’m really glad I asked this question.
Thank you all for taking the time to share your experiences and perspectives.
