The fall of angels

[Sitrah_Ahra_Gloria]

I'd like to hear some different perspectives on how the angels have fallen over time, the different reasons for this and perhaps some examples from different choirs

 

[Roma]

how the angels have fallen over time

Various religious traditions have stated that - without any external proof.

It may be that religionists do not have enough categories of entity to undertake a useful analysis of the players.

Also the bottom-up view used by humans may not give a particularly actionable perspective of Reality. For example, angels may not experience linear time

 

[The God-King]

Not sure I understand. What do you mean by 'how they fell over time"?

 

[stalkinghyena]

I guess the way I interpret "fallen over time" is that the story of fallen angels changes across time, though it seems to hold to certain themes.

The tradition that I grew up states that Lucifer was the angel most beloved and closest to God, but wanted to dethrone God and take His place as God, and a "third of the Host of Heaven" conspired along with him. This led to the "War in Heaven" which led to Lucifer and his angels being cast down into Hell. The main cause of Lucifer's rebellion here, I believe, is related to his Pride.

Another version states that Lucifer and his allies refused to worship Adam, whom God had elevated above the angels by giving him Free Will. This is a bit of paradox because if the angels did not have free will, then how could they rebel?

The Book of Enoch tells that a group of angels decided they wanted to have sex with mortal women and took an oath to do so upon a mountain. The result is that they taught humans all sorts of sinful things and the offspring of angelic-human couplings were the giants referred to in the OT. They are cast down and try to appeal to Enoch to talk to God on their behalf, because they are sorry. Here the cause seems to be Lust.

A Gnostic version in the Nag Hammadi kind of relates that the angels - or Archons - were pretty much the creation of Yaltabaoth, who was the bastard son of Sophia. So they were born "fallen", and the world Yaltabaoth created is an imprisoning hell. Note that this is only one form of ancient Gnosticism - there were many variants. There is a story (I forget if it's in the same tract) where the Archons see Eve, who is the earthly manifestation of a higher Eve, and decide to gang rape her. It's not the real Eve, but like a soulless copy - but the image is to demonstrate the Archons' depravity.

I have always seen that a comparison can be drawn between the War in Heaven and other myths such as the Sumerian War of the Gods against Tiamat and Titanomachy of the Greeks. There are others with variants. The undercurrent seems to me to be that "rational" forces of order and those of chaos separate violently with humanity caught in between. The Fall of Angels coincides with the Fall of Nature, or the degredation of some perfect primal state (as in Eden). Someone always makes some kind of mistake, which "fallen angels" tempt and the "good angels" try to help redeem. I think that over time, from the human perspective, the forces maintain perpetual struggle reflected in our natures, so the stories change, and that which represents good and evil change, but the struggle itself takes a sort of waveform aspect.

 

[The God-King]

I see what you're saying. I wouldn't say that the rebellion story changed, I would say that different cultures have different interpretations of that rebellion story and due to the internet we're all able to know and learn about these different stories. I would consider it a "change" if say for example, the religion that believes he refused to bow to Adam decided that's no longer the case and changed it up.

 

[Sitrah_Ahra_Gloria]

There have been two rebellions that we know of the rebellion of Lucifer and the watchers. I suspect that angels fall fairly regularly from their involvement with humans or making choices other than what they're supposed to.

Not sure I understand. What do you mean by 'how they fell over time"?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Order • General Occult Discussion
SUBTOPIC • The fall of angels

※→ Sitrah_Ahra_Gloria​

The concept of "Fallen Angels" is somewhat flawed. The Supreme Being is the creator (Central Assumption).

◈. Omnipotence – God is all-powerful​

​

◈. Omnipresence – God is everywhere​

​

◈. Omnibenevolence – God is all-loving​

​

◈ Omniscience – God is all-knowing​

✦ All "Angels" are creations of the all-powerful Supreme Being.​

​

✦ No "Angel" can win against all-powerful "will" of the Supreme Being.​

Determinism is the view that every events by prior event(s). together with the laws of nature. A causal chain of events (13 Billion Years Ago), intiated by the Supreme Being, has lead directly to me writing this response.

In the case of (good and evil) and (right and wrong) there is the matter of Devine Inspiration. The initial force behind the movement is of a Devine's cause.

Devine liability is when the creator of the universe, --- and every entity, mechanism, that's makes permits fault, injury pain ad/or destruction, the deity) is held responsible for the injuries those end-actions that the creator could have corrected by his will alone.

If determinism is true, then
everything you’ve ever done—
every choice you’ve ever made—
was already determined 13 billion years ago.​

This is just one thumbnail consideeration.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Perhaps as angels are assigned to each human, each human that falls over time, the angels fall with them. Thats a possibility.

 

[The God-King]

RE: The Order • General Occult Discussion
SUBTOPIC • The fall of angels

※→ Sitrah_Ahra_Gloria​

The concept of "Fallen Angels" is somewhat flawed. The Supreme Being is the creator (Central Assumption).

◈. Omnipotence – God is all-powerful​

​

◈. Omnipresence – God is everywhere​

​

◈. Omnibenevolence – God is all-loving​

​

◈ Omniscience – God is all-knowing​

✦ All "Angels" are creations of the all-powerful Supreme Being.​

​

✦ No "Angel" can win against all-powerful "will" of the Supreme Being.​

Determinism is the view that every events by prior event(s). together with the laws of nature. A causal chain of events (13 Billion Years Ago), intiated by the Supreme Being, has lead directly to me writing this response.

In the case of (good and evil) and (right and wrong) there is the matter of Devine Inspiration. The initial force behind the movement is of a Devine's cause.

Devine liability is when the creator of the universe, --- and every entity, mechanism, that's makes permits fault, injury pain ad/or destruction, the deity) is held responsible for the injuries those end-actions that the creator could have corrected by his will alone.

If determinism is true, then
everything you’ve ever done—
every choice you’ve ever made—
was already determined 13 billion years ago.​

This is just one thumbnail consideeration.

Most Respectfully,
R

This is why I can't get fully behind Determinism. I believe we have Free Will to an extent.

 

[Öwnchef]

The last angel I saw got his wings ripped off by a philosopher. You might want to start looking there.

 

[Sitrah_Ahra_Gloria]

This is why I can't get fully behind Determinism. I believe we have Free Will to an extent.

I agree, though I do believe large amounts of time and experiences were predetermined there are inflection points in our lives where freewill can be exerted and it may alter the course of our destiny. So I'm personally a mix of determinism with a helping of free will added.

 

[Roma]

Lucifer was the angel most beloved and closest to God, but wanted to dethrone God and take His place as God

The difficulty seems to be that Earth humans have hammered a high dimensional reality into a low dimensional religious belief system.

Better perhaps to abandon religious constructs and instead to investigate the nature and actions of intelligent species in the local galaxies

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Fall of angels over time ...
An old OTO acquaintance I knew, Malrakian Myste, had done extensive research on and wrote a book on mapping of angels and demons to physical states of matter in the universe, such as stars, asteroids, nebulas, clusters, galaxies.

Several fit exactly the drawings from Barrett, Agrippa, and others on demons. For some reason angels were not drawn, perhaps because they are in one of the higher seven heavens, though at least at third ...

Anyway, speaking of, Revelation points to a 1/3 of the stars cast down. Who's to say its all at once?

I think Roma has a point.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Also, if it is on personal angels, then entire civilizations have fallen, one after the other.

 

[Mider2009]

RE: The Order • General Occult Discussion
SUBTOPIC • The fall of angels

※→ Sitrah_Ahra_Gloria​

The concept of "Fallen Angels" is somewhat flawed. The Supreme Being is the creator (Central Assumption).

◈. Omnipotence – God is all-powerful​

​

◈. Omnipresence – God is everywhere​

​

◈. Omnibenevolence – God is all-loving​

​

◈ Omniscience – God is all-knowing​

✦ All "Angels" are creations of the all-powerful Supreme Being.​

​

✦ No "Angel" can win against all-powerful "will" of the Supreme Being.​

Determinism is the view that every events by prior event(s). together with the laws of nature. A causal chain of events (13 Billion Years Ago), intiated by the Supreme Being, has lead directly to me writing this response.

In the case of (good and evil) and (right and wrong) there is the matter of Devine Inspiration. The initial force behind the movement is of a Devine's cause.

Devine liability is when the creator of the universe, --- and every entity, mechanism, that's makes permits fault, injury pain ad/or destruction, the deity) is held responsible for the injuries those end-actions that the creator could have corrected by his will alone.

If determinism is true, then
everything you’ve ever done—
every choice you’ve ever made—
was already determined 13 billion years ago.​

This is just one thumbnail consideeration.

Most Respectfully,
R

What’s this have to do with the OP?

yes there are fallen angels and yes God knew they’d fall...it’s all planned out

 

[Mider2009]

This is why I can't get fully behind Determinism. I believe we have Free Will to an extent.

That’s...complicated...

we have free will but ultimately God as an infinite being knows everything and yes he knew that Adam and Eve would fall etc. if you want to get into really freaky stuff get this

in the Kabbalah it says this has happened all before and it’ll happen again...the earth being created, Adam and Eve, Moses, the Temple being Built, destroyed, the Messiah coming and saving people

those seemed worthy to be in the messianic age become like angels and keep evolving...those who fail have to return over and over and over. How this happens? Who knows, maybe we evolve as a species, technology etc

as for fallen angels..the way I learned is like this, there are different species of angels, some are like robots, they can’t even control their movements at times

others have free will in a way but ultimately obey God...there are no other powers besides God. Anyway the “fall” is this

the angels came to earth having told God they could do better then us, God said cool try it, but you’ll be corrupted down there, on earth they were exposed to our negative emotions...that’s part of the fall of man btw the eating of the tree of knowledge

these angels who were near God suddenly saw woman and wanted sex? Why, because they were exposed to our fallen emotions.

after the angels came and had kids with humans (that’s a whole other topic) God trapped them here, they became fallen. These are what are called the watchers

they are also the angelic princess of the nations, when they fight there are wars...so among some Rabbi’s the Angelic Prince of Russia, the USA, etc are at war

all this is controlled by God ultimately for the betterment of mankind

 

[stalkinghyena]

The difficulty seems to be that Earth humans have hammered a high dimensional reality into a low dimensional religious belief system.

There's that theory that during the Big Bang that matter and anti-matter particles were annihilating each other, releasing catastrophic amounts of energy. But there was just a little bit more of regular matter that would go on to form stars and galaxies. Maybe our current belief systems, our stories of wars and falls are a kind of dim echoes of that primeval event in our atoms. Another angle to look at, I suppose...

 

[Öwnchef]

Theologists made an error. They assumed God as reality.
Reality is well defined. In Philosophy it means that reality has to make a measurable impact. God doesn't. So not real. Something unreal can have no sons. So no Angels.
Watzlawick made the final error with his constructivism. He stated that God was an invention, constructed by men. Therefore must God be real. De-constructivist ended that escapade for good. All this was done with logic. And on the primal false assumption of theologists.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Order • General Occult Discussion
SUBTOPIC • The fall of angels

※→ Ownchef​

Theologists made an error. They assumed God as reality.
Reality is well-defined. In Philosophy it means that reality has to make a measurable impact. God doesn't. So not real. Something unreal can have no sons. So no Angels.

There is no actual evidence that supports your theory. You might make the argument that your logic is "sound." But I argue that it is NOT "valid."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Öwnchef]

Absolutely. I call it a trick. Today they are referencing on the fact that God lives only in texts. Just like Genderism. So they deconstruct these texts. Just words, ghosts as they call them.
Like a stage magician doing his tricks right before your eyes. But still, a trick.