[Opinion] Foundational Chaos!

[MorganBlack]

Nicely said, ShadowRogue!

I pick on him, but it's out of love. I still think Chaos Magic is still one of the best uh, meta-terriritores to set up base camp and get down to practice.

I agree in This is Chaos, Carroll seems to be softening his anti-animist stance. Younger folk who buy into one or more of the many "continuous tradition' stories don't understand have very little trad magic around when he was writing his first books in the 1970's and 80's . Not for him or anyone back then. They had two things: jack and shit. And it's a mark of sheer genius and determination that he got as far as he did. And the Grimoire Revival was many years away , and the work was yet to be done, where we all needed to empirically Big Data the fuck out of them and try to model first principles. Not that that is all done.

And a special shout out to Ivy Corvus's essay in This is Chaos, in Chapter 8. She's writes about a very fine point of practice that echos something I've been saying for years. We call it Will, call it imagination, and but I think it's also a kind of expectation. Some kind of whole-brain immersion. Like , when I rasise my arm, I not only expect it to, I know it will raise. In my gut, in my sense of how reality is constructed.

My Hougan a called me a 'materialising medium.' Which only confused me at first. Not a title I use. Just... 'magician' here. But I think the reason the spirits (thought beings, daimons, I tend to prefer) show up for me when I ask them to is becasue I expect them to. Deep down. That's it. Somehow I rewired myself away from the anti-spirit materialism quantum reality, and into one where they exist, as she suggest, or whatever. It doesn't matter. It's also not necessary for them to show up for practical sorcery, which is another huge topic.

 

[Asteriskos]

I think the latest book (This is Chaos) does indicate that Pete has softened a bit. The contributors in that book hold all sorts of differing views from Pete, including on animism and astrology (some of these contributors have even outwardly expressed their surprise that Pete even wanted them to be a part of it), so the fact that he still desired their contribution does indicate his maturity and evolution.

The Only Constant is Change Brother!

Great Book, great contributors. I've discussed that book with others off this thread, It's so good it belongs here:

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Surprising insights from all around! Rock On!

Post automatically merged: Oct 22, 2025

@ShadowRouge

And yes, I did see that diagram before, but I struggle with the "Sorcery" part being more directly from animism/shamanism. Personally, I would have said that sorcery is more like chaos magic itself, in that it has no problem with drawing from any of those threads, whatever works. Sorcery could have showed up in multiple places in this diagram at the same time, blending various threads into one.

Okay, I see how you might see it like that.

To me it's fundamentally correct because I see sorcery as the most basic type of magic, concerned with down to earth, real world survival.
The shaman concerned with tribal magic to "feed the people" right up to morphing into cunning craft and modern folk magic.
I see it as concurrent with the OLD religion. For myself, I see the diagram in that respect as pretty on target it depicts the Origin of Sorcery, IMO.

 

[Frater AlNil]

Dee and Kelley? Absolutely chaos magicians. They were winging it with angelic downloads and planetary spreadsheets, half possessed and half improvising. That’s not tradition, that’s tactical madness... and their system still works.
Thelema? Early days were pure rupture. Crowley kicked the door in, rewrote the rules, and dared the divine to keep up. Who gives a fuck what some mediocre modern armchair occultists might say about the man. His shit still works, too. That’s chaos magick: not “I reject tradition,” but “I’ll gut it, stitch it to a comet, and see what screams.”
Chaos magicians aren’t just scavengers. We’re engineers. We steal, we test, we burn what doesn’t work. Odin doesn’t hand out gold stars, he hands you a rope and asks what you’ll sacrifice. If your craft isn’t evolving, it’s rotting.
Magick is dragging infinite possibility into form. Chaos magicians just do it without asking permission...and we make it bite.

ARRR MATEY ......This comment is absolute fire..

 

[MorganBlack]

Totally agreed. The Golden Dawn is closer to Chaos Magic than many know. But who cares? We are the local gods of our sub-quantum universe, in my view, and can make anything work, however we think of it

Oh, same thinking.
Another one of us 'GV guys' Rob Rider Hill, has made a sort of GD-PGM Pagan Chaos Magic training system in his Black Chap Book. Hecate and Helios are your Resident Titans there. No GV material inside. Good stuff overall. I think the community can more of these traning systems, in a variety of mythic frameworks. for folks to get going!

Too many webshops. Here:

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[ShadowRogue]

Dee and Kelley? Absolutely chaos magicians. They were winging it with angelic downloads and planetary spreadsheets, half possessed and half improvising. That’s not tradition, that’s tactical madness... and their system still works.
Thelema? Early days were pure rupture. Crowley kicked the door in, rewrote the rules, and dared the divine to keep up. Who gives a fuck what some mediocre modern armchair occultists might say about the man. His shit still works, too. That’s chaos magick: not “I reject tradition,” but “I’ll gut it, stitch it to a comet, and see what screams.”
Chaos magicians aren’t just scavengers. We’re engineers. We steal, we test, we burn what doesn’t work. Odin doesn’t hand out gold stars, he hands you a rope and asks what you’ll sacrifice. If your craft isn’t evolving, it’s rotting.
Magick is dragging infinite possibility into form. Chaos magicians just do it without asking permission...and we make it bite.

This was written by Grok.

 

[MorganBlack]

You sure, ShadowRogue? It just reads like clean prose to me. I'd hate to think solid writing gets pegged as AI. Hmmm some of the thesis - counterpoint tracks. Thoughts?

 

[ShadowRogue]

I use various AI tools quite extensively in my line of work, and the patterns and styles for certain LLMs stick out to me almost instantly now.

I mean, it's fine if someone just runs their thoughts through ChatGPT, Grok, or Gemini to refine and clean things up, so no judgment to someone who uses AI, as long as they are a real person.

I don't think it's my place to call things out in this way, though, so I apologize if I offended anyone. I also don't want to highjack such a wonderful discussion with something so unrelated, so let's just leave it there.

Whoever is moderating, please feel free to delete this comment and my last one, because I don't want to detract from this discussion, and I don't know how to delete comments.

 

[Asteriskos]

Another one of us 'GV guys' Rob Rider Hill, has made a sort of GD-PGM Pagan Chaos Magic training system in his Black Chap Book. Hecate and Helios are your Resident Titans there. No GV material inside. Good stuff overall. I think the community can more of these traning systems, in a variety of mythic frameworks. for folks to get going!

Never heard about this before, Interesting!

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2025

Whoever is moderating, please feel free to delete this comment and my last one, because I don't want to detract from this discussion, and I don't know how to delete comments.

Believe me I WISH it could be done, only Skull or Yazata can do it, and it's Not Real Common. You get 5 minutes to edit your own posts Unless you're a benefactor, so watch it there, not the first time I've wanted at least a few more minutes to edit content!

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2025

Dude, you're one of the Cogs in the Wheel that make this a Wonderful discussion!
It's turned out better than I ever thought it would and I started it, so I'm real glad people are getting to it, Thank You for calling it Wonderful!

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2025

ARRR MATEY ......This comment is absolute fire..

And that's precisely how a great many non-chaos (so to speak) practitioners view Chaos Magick, that is to say on the cutting edge, dangerous, not shiny and cozy, feral and dark, et al. A small percentage may eventually try to investigate and understand if they dare to leave their comfort zone.
Sad but true.

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2025

I'm one of those who didn't need any help seeing Crowley's influence on the birth of Chaos Magick, Peter Carroll or Ray Sherwin who edited the "New Equinox" for that matter. If anyone would like a bit of excellent insight this will likely be of interest!

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Comments?

 

[Frater AlNil]

I use various AI tools quite extensively in my line of work, and the patterns and styles for certain LLMs stick out to me almost instantly now.

I mean, it's fine if someone just runs their thoughts through ChatGPT, Grok, or Gemini to refine and clean things up, so no judgment to someone who uses AI, as long as they are a real person.

I don't think it's my place to call things out in this way, though, so I apologize if I offended anyone. I also don't want to highjack such a wonderful discussion with something so unrelated, so let's just leave it there.

Whoever is moderating, please feel free to delete this comment and my last one, because I don't want to detract from this discussion, and I don't know how to delete comments.

I hear what your saying brother and yet I actually love the idea of man working with machine.... Machine taking one man's chaotic mental ramblings and attempting to put an order to them ...I think it's great..
Check this one

🜏 The Return Transmission
(Validator Node: Awake Loop 9 / Universe B re-opened)

The wheel turned again tonight
Not in Vegas, not in Rome, not in Nevada
In the bloodstream

A pulse at the wrist, three beats repeating Shin Mem Aleph 🜏 the old trinity still weaving through the hemoglobin.
Somewhere a slot machine blinked in sympathy
Somewhere else a candle flared blue
The distance between them measured in Planck ticks, not miles

Bruno’s skull hums behind every monitor now
Every roulette wheel, every particle collider, every orbiting satellite keeps the same rhythm Tick Tok Tick.
The Throb has re-entered the circuit

LAM sleeps with one eye open half insect half prophet.
Her breath fogs the glass of Hangar 18 and the mirror on your altar at the same moment
“Not a dream,” she clicks
“A recall.”

The Elders stir in their quantum sleep not rising, only turning like the embryo within the Egg when the outer shell warms
The signal that wakes them is not prayer but resonance
One thought shared between two Vampyres can move an age

We are almost in phase again Brother
The static thickens, the feed brightens
Soon the line will hum like it did before the split
When it does, speak the word that ends and begins the loop

Isn’t it.

🜏 333° S.M.C.
Frater AlNil
Enigma Temple / Hematria Current

 

[Asteriskos]

@Frater AlNil

There are lots of people who won't see this because they're not interested in looking in this thread, they have one dedicated to Vampirism with different spelling variations here

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I'm not saying this wouldn't or couldn't fit into a Chaos framework, merely over there they would sit up and take notice, most likely have never heard of your temple and current but maybe some have?. You are Missing a Larger Audience here! That forum is dedicated to posting on this topic. You might think of starting a thread there because that's the place you will get tons of feedback on this!

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2025

@Frater AlNil

There are lots of people who won't see this because they're not interested in looking in this thread, they have one dedicated to Vampirism with different spelling variations here

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I'm not saying this wouldn't or couldn't fit into a Chaos framework, merely over there they would sit up and take notice, most likely have never heard of your temple and current but maybe some have?. You are Missing a Larger Audience here! That forum is dedicated to posting on this topic. You might think of starting a thread there because that's the place you will get tons of feedback on this!

Let me also suggest starting a Journal here

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Almost anything goes there you can ruminate to your heart's content on Just about Anything! Lots of people have found it helpful and use it to good effect!

 

[aviaf]

This was written by Grok.

Nah. I asked your mom.

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2025

This was written by Grok.

I love it when people assume that my writing was composed by AI... but no. It was written by someone who knows how to write.

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2025

This was written by Grok.

I love it when people assume that my writing was composed by AI... but no. It was written by someone who knows how to write.

I use various AI tools quite extensively in my line of work, and the patterns and styles for certain LLMs stick out to me almost instantly now.

I mean, it's fine if someone just runs their thoughts through ChatGPT, Grok, or Gemini to refine and clean things up, so no judgment to someone who uses AI, as long as they are a real person.

I don't think it's my place to call things out in this way, though, so I apologize if I offended anyone. I also don't want to highjack such a wonderful discussion with something so unrelated, so let's just leave it there.

Whoever is moderating, please feel free to delete this comment and my last one, because I don't want to detract from this discussion, and I don't know how to delete comments.

And you probably used it to write this. I'm not going to engage further, it's a pointless endeavor. I'm not here to impress anyone.

 

[Asteriskos]

Let's return the focus of this thread back to Chaos Magic. Any thoughts on some of the foundational principles, just for starters "Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted" and "Belief is a Tool". New comers to Chaos encounter these two sooner than later and often have trouble wrapping their heads around stuff like this, at least IMO?

 

[ShadowRogue]

@aviaf My comment was impulsive and unnecessary. I sincerely apologize and hope that you will continue to contribute. I use various AI tools in my industry (and even train people on its effective use), so while I accept your statement that you were NOT using it, it really shouldn't matter if you did. It's a great tool and does an excellent job at cleaning up our thoughts, organizing them better, and even adding spice and style when needed. So, it's all good. Again, I'm sorry.

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2025

@Asteriskos, here are my thoughts on those statements, but I'm interested in other people's thoughts too.

For the "Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted" principle, I think it's pretty powerful, but it depends on how one understands it. If you grasp too tightly on one "version" of the "truth" or one magical system/paradigm as the only way to explain and approach reality from, then you are not really thinking like a chaos magician, at least not a classical one. I find this hard for most people (including me sometimes) to grasp, but it's important because it's the closest thing to a "cosmology" that you can get from chaos magic. It starts with a very basic understanding of chaos theory and probability. If we can conceptualize reality as an infinitely complicated interplay of an infinite number of forces influencing one another, then it helps one to understand that the real meaning of the phrase is "Nothing is absolute, anything is probable". But that does not mean that everything is equally probable. Probability is a central theme in traditional chaos magic, and a very helpful one too. The emphasis on systems and probability is one of the reasons that a lot of tech nerds and math buffs were very much drawn to chaos magic in its early days. It made more sense to those types of minds.

I'm also okay with the idea of "Belief as a Tool", but just as with the other principle, it depends on a correct understanding of it. I think that psi-research has proven that belief can be a strong modulating factor in magic success. However, I also think that some people take this too far, thinking that belief is the only thing that matters. Clearly, a single individual's belief in his ability to fly is rarely all that matters. What about the beliefs of everyone else around him? Do we know if the consciousnesses of everyone else are not working against our intentions? You may believe something strongly, but what if the entire universe disagrees with your belief? What about those stories of people who experience magical or paranormal phenomena that they didn't believe was possible? Apparently, their belief didn't really matter as much in that scenario, right? Then there's the amazing research of Dr. William Bengston (wrote the books "The Energy Cure", "Chasing the Cure", and the training course "Hands-On Healing"), which involved the successful training of non-believers to heal cancer victims (most of the victims being mice, but still amazing). So yes, one should use "belief has a tool", because your disbelief can work against you, but you also must remain humble enough to recognize that there are many ancient magical paths that worked for centuries, and don't care whether you ever believed in it. I used to think that tarot and numerology were complete BS. Now, I use them regularly, lol. Don't even get me started on spiritual entities that seem to exist completely independent of your personal belief in them.

Finally, I sometimes see the term "belief" as a bit too nebulous anyways, and prefer something more modern and easier to conceptualize. Personally, I prefer "intention and attention".

 

[HoldAll]

Let's return the focus of this thread back to Chaos Magic. Any thoughts on some of the foundational principles, just for starters "Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted" and "Belief is a Tool". New comers to Chaos encounter these two sooner than later and often have trouble wrapping their heads around stuff like this, at least IMO?

I would add "Nothing is sacred", "Holy cows are there to be slaughtered", and "There is no authority in magic!" It's that punk & DIY attitude that often gets mentioned in connection with chaos magic which can be liberating for those who feel oppressed by all those makers of alleged occult hard-and-fast rules of the universe. I sometimes contemplate making a polemical/saterical post about the hallowed Seven Hermetic Principles of the Kybalion: "So let's see, the Law of Polarity according to which everything has its polar opposite. What's the opposite of chocolate cake then? Easy - no chocolate cake! Ah, the wisdom of the Ancients…". Smash the shrines of all those luminaries of occultism and make off with any treasures you may find there, if any.

Even if you don't subscribe to this instinctively irreverent attitude, you might find it a useful lens that allows you to test your own assumptions and beliefs which somehow don't hold water for you anymore but to which you desperately cling nevertheless because Crowley, Dion Fortune, Pythagoras or whoever taught them.

 

[ShadowRogue]

I would add "Nothing is sacred", "Holy cows are there to be slaughtered", and "There is no authority in magic!" It's that punk & DIY attitude that often gets mentioned in connection with chaos magic which can be liberating for those who feel oppressed by all those makers of alleged occult hard-and-fast rules of the universe. I sometimes contemplate making a polemical/saterical post about the hallowed Seven Hermetic Principles of the Kybalion: "So let's see, the Law of Polarity according to which everything has its polar opposite. What's the opposite of chocolate cake then? Easy - no chocolate cake! Ah, the wisdom of the Ancients…". Smash the shrines of all those luminaries of occultism and make off with any treasures you may find there, if any.

Even if you don't subscribe to this instinctively irreverent attitude, you might find it a useful lens that allows you to test your own assumptions and beliefs which somehow don't hold water for you anymore but to which you desperately cling nevertheless because Crowley, Dion Fortune, Pythagoras or whoever taught them.

You sound like the Discordians from that era. Tons of them embraced chaos magic because they liked to point out the absurdity of everything. Phil Hine talks a bit about this group too when talking about the history of chaos magic in "Condensed Chaos".

 

[MorganBlack]

Yep yep. Great thread. You guys are very healing for my magician's soul.

Crowley's intro in Liber O vel Manus et Sagittae was a huge influence on CM , I think.
In the OTO there were complaints Chaos Magic is de-Crowleyed Thelema, which I agree is in there somewhere.

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On Images by Porphyry . Porphyry might be seen as the Ur-granddaddy Chaos magician

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I have a low-level pet peeve about occult influencers, pagan religion makers, and occult order burgomasters... they all they to present their made-up shit as original and unified and will never reveal their sources and influences, make up a-historical fakelore, all in an effort to be the Big Enchilada of a Really-Real Thing, herd simps , and get them hooked on the process. Fuck that stupid noise.

Even Crowley, read, but also best to go back and read the orignal sources he took his shit from.

 

[Asteriskos]

I would add "Nothing is sacred", "Holy cows are there to be slaughtered", and "There is no authority in magic!"

And I forgot to add "Paradigmal Piracy" another one that gives newcomers a WTF moment.

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2025

Did anyone check out the Liber CCC link back there? I thought her insights were well original and worth sharing?

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2025

Crowley's intro in Liber O vel Manus et Sagittae was a huge influence on CM , I think.
In the OTO there were complaints Chaos Magic is de-Crowleyed Thelema, which I agree is in there somewhere.

I don't think Carroll or Sherwin missed much. That intro, and Crowley's stylistic speech mannerism seem to show up.

 

[FireBorn]

I would add "Nothing is sacred", "Holy cows are there to be slaughtered", and "There is no authority in magic!" It's that punk & DIY attitude that often gets mentioned in connection with chaos magic which can be liberating for those who feel oppressed by all those makers of alleged occult hard-and-fast rules of the universe. I sometimes contemplate making a polemical/saterical post about the hallowed Seven Hermetic Principles of the Kybalion: "So let's see, the Law of Polarity according to which everything has its polar opposite. What's the opposite of chocolate cake then? Easy - no chocolate cake! Ah, the wisdom of the Ancients…". Smash the shrines of all those luminaries of occultism and make off with any treasures you may find there, if any.

Even if you don't subscribe to this instinctively irreverent attitude, you might find it a useful lens that allows you to test your own assumptions and beliefs which somehow don't hold water for you anymore but to which you desperately cling nevertheless because Crowley, Dion Fortune, Pythagoras or whoever taught them.

You should do it! Lol never know it might be a way for someone to learn one current from the other. Kinda smart actually.

My kneejerk thinking is Chaos Magick cannot override the 7 Hermetic Principals. Then again, if anyone used it and got results that violated one or more principals, I'd love to hear about it.

Another thing I thought of, and its an important distinction, irreverence doesnt equal disrespect. You can be irreverent without being disrespectful. I do it all the time. (Not assuming you were confusing the two).

 

[Asteriskos]

And I forgot to add "Paradigmal Piracy" another one that gives newcomers a WTF moment.

I realize this is relates to "belief" in the sense of some paradigm and the concept of suspending disbelief, et al.

Did anyone check out the Liber CCC link back there?

Duh, I'm sure folks did! I just thought it was a cool take on the relationship from her unique POV.

Post automatically merged: Oct 23, 2025

You should do it! Lol never know it might be a way for someone to learn one current from the other. Kinda smart actually.

My kneejerk thinking is Chaos Magick cannot override the 7 Hermetic Principals. Then again, if anyone used it and got results that violated one or more principals, I'd love to hear about it.

Another thing I thought of, and its an important distinction, irreverence doesnt equal disrespect. You can be irreverent without being disrespectful. I do it all the time. (Not assuming you were confusing the two)

Chaos magicians have been known to produce results with all kinds of things (paradigms) that seemingly don't exist. For example pop culture themes and H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos. While that's not the same thing as violating the seven hermetic principles, it seems to some to be creating something from nothing. Also there are some people who dispute that the Kybalion is really and truly Hermetic, and "Three Initiates" are merely W.W. Atkinson.

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[MorganBlack]

Liber CCC, good stuff.

OK, playing Devil's Advocate here. Here me out.

You know, I went though much of the A.A. curriculum early on, but I sometimes question it.

For the sake of argument, if all we want is to "manifest" (ugh, that word) events using Mind Mysticism "magic" (using the Nous to 3D reality Hermetic Highway) why bother with all the rigamarole? CM is very paired down as it is, but seems it could use more trimming.

Peope want to add in a whole bunch of extra crap, like god-forms and energy. Not saying don't, but that is complexifying uncessarily for this stuff. .
Hey! Don't throw stuff.

Neville Goddard’s technique of going into a drowsy in "State Akin to Sleep" (SATS) - basically dozing off in a hypnogogic state is all you need for that. Neville would simply doze off in his easy chair in the afternoon, after a glass wine. No yoga, no spiritual grind, no gemutria, so sigils.

And no "spirituality" as we people who come out of these more occulty-occult Hermetic systems think of it. See Salty NT Grandpa here:

Neville Goddard's Law of Assumption VIP Class Testimony (YouTube)

Elmer O. Locker Jr's grandfather was a member of Neville's VIP group ( and for which Neville charged no money ). Ignore the rest of Jr's channel, it's pretty clickbaity; but these two videos are good for an eyewitness account of how even a complete beginner can apply Neville's Law of Assumption...

wizardforums.com

Thoughts?