Book Discussion 48 Laws of Power

[Xenophon]

Just stumbled onto Robert Greene's erstwhile bestseller. It's hardly esoteric, but was recommended to me on a mage's "must read" list. It's a rehearsal of dicta about power relationships, drawing heavily on ancient Western, Chinese, and Renaissance/early modern anecdotes. I find it useful for its counsel re: cloaking one's motives, as well as its tacit reminder that getting great effects needs not employ magick. (Like Deon Fortune said it's generally easier to open your bedroom door with your hand than a servitor.)

Anyone else read this? Feel free to shower praise or vent spleens.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

I've started to listen to an audiobook off YouTube a while back, but hardly got into it for very long.

 

[Roma]

Just had a quick look - not particularly impressed

But surprised at truthfulness: " Power is endlessly seductive and deceptive in its own way. It is a labyrinth—your mind becomes consumed with solving its infinite problems...."

The only area where I normally use power is in meditation - when meeting adverse entities of various species. Even then they are given warning experiences and invited to depart. It is explained that there is no second chance so best not return

Some entities are more afraid of their supervisor than myself. So their supervisor's supervisor may need to have its parts tightened to encourage departure

Mostly I prefer right relationship, based on knowing the proper functions of the entity type and lifting it out of servitude

 

[Xenophon]

Just had a quick look - not particularly impressed

But surprised at truthfulness: " Power is endlessly seductive and deceptive in its own way. It is a labyrinth—your mind becomes consumed with solving its infinite problems...."

The only area where I normally use power is in meditation - when meeting adverse entities of various species. Even then they are given warning experiences and invited to depart. It is explained that there is no second chance so best not return

Some entities are more afraid of their supervisor than myself. So their supervisor's supervisor may need to have its parts tightened to encourage departure

Mostly I prefer right relationship, based on knowing the proper functions of the entity type and lifting it out of servitude

Like James Jones (the author, not the cult leader) said, we're all pacifists till we meet the neighbors.

 

[Lemongrass00]

Read is, thought it was kind of corny. It’s the Bible for “sigma males” though.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Could I ask for the top six laws for discussion?

Post automatically merged: Nov 17, 2023

Just stumbled onto Robert Greene's erstwhile bestseller. It's hardly esoteric, but was recommended to me on a mage's "must read" list. It's a rehearsal of dicta about power relationships, drawing heavily on ancient Western, Chinese, and Renaissance/early modern anecdotes. I find it useful for its counsel re: cloaking one's motives, as well as its tacit reminder that getting great effects needs not employ magick. (Like Deon Fortune said it's generally easier to open your bedroom door with your hand than a servitor.)

Anyone else read this? Feel free to shower praise or vent spleens.

I would venture to say it is probably among a list for business and esoteric alike, three more Book of Five Rings, The Art of War, and The Prince.

 

[Roma]

LAW 1 - NEVER OUTSHINE THE MASTER

LAW 2 - NEVER PUT TOO MUCH TRUST IN FRIENDS, LEARN HOW TO USE ENEMIES

LAW 3 - CONCEAL YOUR INTENTIONS

LAW 4 - ALWAYS SAY LESS THAN NECESSARY

LAW 5 - SO MUCH DEPENDS ON REPUTATION—GUARD IT WITH YOUR LIFE

LAW 6 - COURT ATTENTION AT ALL COST

LAW 7 - GET OTHERS TO DO THE WORK FOR YOU, BUT ALWAYS TAKE THE CREDIT

LAW 8 - MAKE OTHER PEOPLE COME TO YOU—USE BAIT IF NECESSARY

LAW 9 - WIN THROUGH YOUR ACTIONS, NEVER THROUGH ARGUMENT

LAW 10 - INFECTION: AVOID THE UNHAPPY AND UNLUCKY

LAW 11 - LEARN TO KEEP PEOPLE DEPENDENT ON YOU

LAW 12 - USE SELECTIVE HONESTY AND GENEROSITY TO DISARM YOUR VICTIM

LAW 13 - WHEN ASKING FOR HELP, APPEAL TO PEOPLE’S SELF-INTEREST, NEVER TO THEIR ...

LAW 14 - POSE AS A FRIEND, WORK AS A SPY

LAW 15 - CRUSH YOUR ENEMY TOTALLY

LAW 16 - USE ABSENCE TO INCREASE RESPECT AND HONOR

LAW 17 - KEEP OTHERS IN SUSPENDED TERROR: CULTIVATE AN AIR OF UNPREDICTABILITY

LAW 18 - DO NOT BUILD FORTRESSES TO PROTECT YOURSELF—ISOLATION IS DANGEROUS

LAW 19 - KNOW WHO YOU’RE DEALING WITH—DO NOT OFFEND THE WRONG PERSON

LAW 20 - DO NOT COMMIT TO ANYONE

LAW 21 - PLAY A SUCKER TO CATCH A SUCKER—SEEM DUMBER THAN YOUR MARK

LAW 22 - USE THE SURRENDER TACTIC: TRANSFORM WEAKNESS INTO POWER

LAW 23 - CONCENTRATE YOUR FORCES

LAW 24 - PLAY THE PERFECT COURT

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

I've encountered or violated most of those. They remind me of a few bosses I've had.

 

[Xenophon]

Read is, thought it was kind of corny. It’s the Bible for “sigma males” though.

Well maybe. If you use a cookbook for manipulating folks there's a name for you: food. Natural talent beats acquired most every time. There was no Mozart vs. Salieri rematch, as I recall.

Post automatically merged: Nov 17, 2023

I've encountered or violated most of those. They remind me of a few bosses I've had.

A few bosses violated me, as it were & near 'nuff.

Post automatically merged: Nov 17, 2023

Could I ask for the top six laws for discussion?

Post automatically merged: Nov 17, 2023

I would venture to say it is probably among a list for business and esoteric alike, three more Book of Five Rings, The Art of War, and The Prince.

The Book of Five Rings never really grabbed me. Maybe it's a translation thing. But its claiming that the guy who's kick-ass at single combat can lead an army has been shown false time and again. That's the whole point of "The Peter Principle." It's the rare bird who can take his game up even a couple of levels.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

The Surrender technique may become my best friend to obtain power.

 

[stalkinghyena]

It's not a book you read, it's a book you study.
There's a lot of history and fables and references in there to back up what Greene his saying. I highly recommend it, but one should also go to the direct sources to get a deeper sense of how social power works. And heed Greene's warning that the gods of power do not fuck around.
My only criticism is that some of the Laws seem redundant.

His follow up work The Art of Seduction will break your heart, if you have one. But it ain't no bullshit.

I have only read the summary of the 33 Strategies of War, but if taken together with the above, it's workable.

His 18 Laws of Human Nature didn't appeal to me in summary because it has the feel of a watered down pop psychology self help manual. Still, I respect Greene's work, and he has suffered the price of infamy for it. In fact, I think he invented the term "New Prude" - all those snobby progressives who somehow think in their bubbles that the "state of nature" lurking under their feet doesn't apply to them.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

And compared to The Psychopaths Bible (I confess I've read neither of them)? I guess I add another book to study.

 

[stalkinghyena]

If you've got time, just kick back and listen to the summary. People are doing this shit every day, all the time - and that's just civilization.

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[DiLoco_DelEted]

So does it tie into principles from Machiavelli or Sun Tzu at all?

Post automatically merged: Nov 17, 2023

From a grad management class syllabus I found, with the text being this exact book:
What is power?
• What is political behavior in organizations?
• What is the process by which one acquires power in organizations?
• What is the process by which one maintains power once acquired?
• What factors determine how power is distributed or concentrated in
organizations?
• What is the difference between power and influence?
• How does power and its use relate to leadership?
• What is powerlessness and its consequences?

 

[Roma]

My own view is that natural authority is a higher analogue of power. It achieves without force

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

True but it's a world we live 8n where many view as two principles:
"Cash is King"
"Kill or be Killed".
Sadly, neither are true but a vast majority believe in both.

 

[Xenophon]

So does it tie into principles from Machiavelli or Sun Tzu at all?

Post automatically merged: Nov 17, 2023

From a grad management class syllabus I found, with the text being this exact book:
What is power?
• What is political behavior in organizations?
• What is the process by which one acquires power in organizations?
• What is the process by which one maintains power once acquired?
• What factors determine how power is distributed or concentrated in
organizations?
• What is the difference between power and influence?
• How does power and its use relate to leadership?
• What is powerlessness and its consequences?

The book ties in pretty closely with those, though one can dispute the lessons drawn. A couple of times, Greene presents as a clear cut choice what strikes me as a real quandry (e.g., the case of the Byzantine Emperor who had to choose between a "reliable" uncle and a "trusted" friend.) In cases like that, any principle appealed to tends to be based post hoc reconstruction rather than perceived live choice. Tolstoi's old saw about battlefields is true of life generally: it's hard to see in the smoke of the fight.

Post automatically merged: Nov 17, 2023

True but it's a world we live 8n where many view as two principles:
"Cash is King"
"Kill or be Killed".
Sadly, neither are true but a vast majority believe in both.

Depends. There certainly are situations where both of those can---and does---apply.

Post automatically merged: Nov 17, 2023

Though we all of us, sitting smug behind our keyboards, are able to do so because of force of one sort or another employed in some wise or other. Somehow I am reminded of monks in Thailand telling me that, so long as WE didn't kill the chicken, it's ok to eat it and then lecture others about reaping bad karma.

My own view is that natural authority is a higher analogue of power. It achieves without force

Post automatically merged: Nov 17, 2023

If you've got time, just kick back and listen to the summary. People are doing this shit every day, all the time - and that's just civilization.

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There was some famed world leader, wasn't there, who insisted you only had to read the last few pages of any book. I tried that with grad school reading lists: intro and last chapter. Worked fine.

 

[LadyBoi]

Just stumbled onto Robert Greene's erstwhile bestseller. It's hardly esoteric, but was recommended to me on a mage's "must read" list. It's a rehearsal of dicta about power relationships, drawing heavily on ancient Western, Chinese, and Renaissance/early modern anecdotes. I find it useful for its counsel re: cloaking one's motives, as well as its tacit reminder that getting great effects needs not employ magick. (Like Deon Fortune said it's generally easier to open your bedroom door with your hand than a servitor.)

Anyone else read this? Feel free to shower praise or vent spleens.

Do you have a link to the must read list by chance?

 

[Xenophon]

Do you have a link to the must read list by chance?

Let me hunt around. I downloaded the list sometime back, then deleted the link.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

LAW 1 - NEVER OUTSHINE THE MASTER

LAW 2 - NEVER PUT TOO MUCH TRUST IN FRIENDS, LEARN HOW TO USE ENEMIES

LAW 3 - CONCEAL YOUR INTENTIONS

LAW 4 - ALWAYS SAY LESS THAN NECESSARY

LAW 5 - SO MUCH DEPENDS ON REPUTATION—GUARD IT WITH YOUR LIFE

LAW 6 - COURT ATTENTION AT ALL COST

LAW 7 - GET OTHERS TO DO THE WORK FOR YOU, BUT ALWAYS TAKE THE CREDIT

LAW 8 - MAKE OTHER PEOPLE COME TO YOU—USE BAIT IF NECESSARY

LAW 9 - WIN THROUGH YOUR ACTIONS, NEVER THROUGH ARGUMENT

LAW 10 - INFECTION: AVOID THE UNHAPPY AND UNLUCKY

LAW 11 - LEARN TO KEEP PEOPLE DEPENDENT ON YOU

LAW 12 - USE SELECTIVE HONESTY AND GENEROSITY TO DISARM YOUR VICTIM

LAW 13 - WHEN ASKING FOR HELP, APPEAL TO PEOPLE’S SELF-INTEREST, NEVER TO THEIR ...

LAW 14 - POSE AS A FRIEND, WORK AS A SPY

LAW 15 - CRUSH YOUR ENEMY TOTALLY

LAW 16 - USE ABSENCE TO INCREASE RESPECT AND HONOR

LAW 17 - KEEP OTHERS IN SUSPENDED TERROR: CULTIVATE AN AIR OF UNPREDICTABILITY

LAW 18 - DO NOT BUILD FORTRESSES TO PROTECT YOURSELF—ISOLATION IS DANGEROUS

LAW 19 - KNOW WHO YOU’RE DEALING WITH—DO NOT OFFEND THE WRONG PERSON

LAW 20 - DO NOT COMMIT TO ANYONE

LAW 21 - PLAY A SUCKER TO CATCH A SUCKER—SEEM DUMBER THAN YOUR MARK

LAW 22 - USE THE SURRENDER TACTIC: TRANSFORM WEAKNESS INTO POWER

LAW 23 - CONCENTRATE YOUR FORCES

LAW 24 - PLAY THE PERFECT COURT

lots of these sound AWFUL.