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Are demonized pagan gods of the Goetia their own being or apart of the original deity?

MorganBlack

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ratfucked representation of the original spirits
Da hell?

I’ve used the GV since the 1990s, not the Lesser Key, but even "ratfucked" or not the LK spirits are still teaching magicians the arts and sciences, logic, ethics, and eloquence.

Funny, as a Grimorium Verum practitioner, I originally felt exactly the same way about the WitchTok Demonolators when they first arrived about ten years ago. I was afraid the demons' fangs, balls, and dignity would be castrated. I wanted the daimons, and still do, as the Strange Other. At first I was like, 'Great, now we have to wade through this added astral layer made of effete LARPing simp effluvia before we can reach the actual daimonic intelligences. Thank God I had my allies before they came along to piss in the astral pool.'

I have more inclusive models now how it may work, but it turns out, it’s all far more synergistic than my earlier more linear, single-telephone line model.

So there’s a magician/author who has pacted with Bune since about 2004, long before the WitchTokBLARGotry theatre kids were around. With all the added minds - even with their weak-willed performativity - the "Office" called Bune just takes their energy (meaning their added attention, the coin of the spirit realm) and comes through even stronger for the grim trad magican now. Perhaps the riitualized astral UI/UX of the Lesser Key is even stronger as well?. We are, in that sense , making all the layers and manifestation of the Office of Bune, and the other daimons, at the same time. WithTokers can have their Cuddle-bunny Beelzebuth , while I have my Death Beelzebuth. It's all good.
 

sahgwa

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So theres the comparative mythology/religious studies approach that traces them as a lineage of old gods demonized by the church... and then theres actually interfacing with them through evocation. I can guarantee you that what ever you come into contact with using goetia proper is not a diety and is a demon by its nature. How that works I am not sure, but when you use solomonic magic to evoke Ashteroth it is not the same thing that you experience when you work with the goddess Astarte.
Maybe it's the difference between riding the bus and getting hit by the bus.
They are both the bus. But they are different aspects and energies of the bus. :D
 

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In the Ars Goetia some of the demons are bastardized pagan gods (ex. Ashtaroth = Astarte, IPOs = Anubis, Haures - Horus, etc) so would that make the goetic demons their own being or an aspect of the original pagan god?!
Pagan god names appear to have inspired the source material satire. Which would make them their own thing from the different characteristics.

Crowley and co's 777 attributing these to the astrological decans anchors a different deific meaning with correspondence to the Ancient Egyptian calendar that's particular to a temple aligning to Regulus. Making a connection between those to aspects of 'original' pagan gods from astronomical timing rather than the name.
 

MorganBlack

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The pagan myths are just conceptual handles for us to try to understand what these forces are for human purposes just as much as the Catholic ones are.

Kepler is right, that we can map the daimons to the stars. This is being done currently with the daimons of the GV. I find it all a little anodyne and dry, but it too will help modulate the manifestations.

The daimons "echo" the pattern of the myth, but they are not literally "pagan gods" in a historical vacuum. They exist seemingly separate from us, but as "psychiod" entities, they are responsive to our thoughts and expectations within a certain range that can be mapped by the myths.

Since I mentioned, Beelzebuth:

This is where JSK’s Grimoire-as-Geography model kicks in. He identifies Beelzebuth with the Canaanite personification of Death and the Underworld, Mot combined with Baal Hadad, the storm god. In Canaanite myth, Mot consumes Baal Hadad, leading to a period of drought and death until Mot is defeated by Anat, the sister (and sometimes consort) of Baal Hadad.

In JSK's view, Beelzebuth is part of the "Triptych" or Underworld Trinity of the Grimorium Verum. This trinity consists of (expanding a bit from JSK):

Lucifer: The quality of Intellect, Awareness, and Communication. Astaroth: The quality of Life, Generation, and Desire, Expansion. Beelzebuth: The quality of Death, Decay, Restriction.

By using these "handles," the magician is using them to ritually engage with the Beelzebuth/Mot pattern that the daimons perceives as itself, or present themselves to us as.

Simply by the fact our animal-self has an instinct for self-preservation, on an raw, instinctual level Beelzebuth will look the way he does. You are still dealing with, in part, the personified "value system" of the grave and the darkness, the finality of the physical form before it is transmuted into the next "level" of the game were all playing together, the daimons and us.

The pagan myths can help us understand and change our relationship to that finality - as can the Catholic ones. Take your pick. They are not always equal, and some are better than others. New Age Modern paganism and internet Plastic Shamanism , in my opinion, do not deal with Death, Judgment, and Resurrection well, except for some badly incorporated ideas borrowed from Eastern religions.
 
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When summoning any spirits it is important to remember the context of their summoning. The spirits in the Ars Goetia are demonic in nature because the system built around them labels them so.
This does not retroactively reduce the entities which inspired their creation from gods to demons.
If you perform a working to summon Astarte, for example, you will be summoning Astarte the goddess and not Astaroth the demon provided that you as the summoner consider the spirit of Astarte as a goddess and not as a demon. This would, however, require a different ritual to summon her than the one laid out in the Ars Goetia as those rituals are attuned to the demonic energies laid out in the system and text for it.
In other words, a lot of the characteristics of any entity summoned, if not all of them, are determined by the caster and their personal impression of the entity being summoned as the summoner's attunement directly correlates to the attunement of the summoned spirit.
Focusing your will on summoning a spirit of darkness and harm will attract a spirit attuned to those energies, focusing on a spirit of light and protection will attract one attuned to those energies and so on.
That said, when summoning an egregores of any sort their energies are attuned to the thoughts masses of practitioners who have summoned or worshipped them before.
Dr Stephen Skinner mentions this in one of his videos about how you approach the spirits of the goetia. He mentions the emphasis on wearing the white robe and crown and the sword, he said that people approach the spirits dressed like something from Halloween and are surprised when the spirit shows themselves in a “unpleasant appearance”

I remember mentioning something about the goetic spirits to an acquaintance and said, man, I don’t know how evil these guys are supposed to be when their abilities are all listed as things like “teaches language, the ufe of metals, knowledge of medicine” and the like. He was like “then they’re probably not “”demons”” then, right?” According to the Bible ALL of the gods of the goyim are demons. Because the one true god of the Bible doesn’t exhibit wicked behaviors at all, right? 🙄. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that there ARENT malevolent entities in the world.
It’s entirely possible that the goetic spirits have just accepted the names that have been used for centuries and their actual, real names are something different.

as a side note, I just watched baal kadmons video last night about how “lucifer” is a descriptor and not even a actual name in the Bible, and his position is that there’s no such entity. Of course there’s numerous practitioners who have personal experience to the contrary. I saw something awhile back that said Lucifer is actually Apollo, which would make sense considering how powerful he is attributed to be.

its a good point above that we have to remember the eras of medieval magic, think about how much abrahamic theology underpins our daily lives even if we grew up in an atheistic home. What the church, the Christian god, and Jewish literature (bible ) was not only the final authority, it was the starting point and the ending point of all understanding of the world.

going back to Dr skinner, he says that some of the goetic spirits are definitely old pagan gods and others aren’t, and some are just downright malevolent beings.
 

MorganBlack

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Nice!

I agree with David Rankine who says we really have no idea what the spirits really are. But I'm pretty okay with any myths people want use to engage with them. My only real requirements is they not strip all nuance out of the practice.

There are deep and shallow ends in both pool. I can deal with Faustian stories - putting your very immortal soul on the line (not literally) for love, wealth, wisdom , and knowledge - far, far more than making the daimons shallow astral chatbots puffing up your ego, justified with a wordlview girded up by a pretty garbage internet culture.

Since I've been on an occult Substack kick recently, I thought these two posts from Robert Peter nicely bookends the serious issues I have with New Age plastic shamanism:

Friends In Low Spaces
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A Love Letter To The New Age Movement ( not really)
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Does it matter if they are or are NOT? I look at each "IT" no matter the spelling as a personal interaction. You'll bring into that interaction whatever you're holding onto or desire. Maybe that interaction will correct you or it won't. Is anything disclosed as THE TRUTH or just what you WANT. I'm of the mind in an omniversal existence that even one awareness at any one point/crux in time/space/existence is just one of an infinite number of it since time/space/existence is likely infinite. Others will say no but I disagree on their absoluteness on that. And like a ripple or something that explodes into infinite particles every fraction of time interacting is creating an infinite number of that "IT."

I just hardly believe it matters to categorize any entity. An example: I believe there are an infinite number of say Jesus to varying degrees. I think there are an infinite number of cruel vile ones as there are supposed exalted kindly nice ones. There are green ones, alien spiked ones, slime ones, devouring ones, do nothing ones. Meh!

These "beings" aren't self. Whether you invoke/evoke/transact/review/explore they're just extensions you can utilize or ignore. They might be a threat to your carnal flesh thing body life but eternally? Meh, they aren't even notworthy.
 

MorganBlack

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Meh, they aren't even notworthy.
Well they are, but it's complicated. They daimons are not Self, but they are Soul. They can help you with parts of your soul's more horizontal and relational aspects like personal coherence, power, and the "unclean" aspects of our reality, like the judicious use of violence. Yes, these are fraught areas .

The Christians make the mistake thinking they are all bad and the modern pagan make the mistake thinking they are all good, and an adequate replacement for The One. We really do not want go back to being primitives pagans, terrified of every daimon lurking in the woods, and making endless sacrifices.

The Neoplatonism of the Western cannon helps here. They are only half us (ideally) when in relation to us. They are the middle ground between The Numinous and us.

A good primer on Neoplatonism in modern langauage , and where animism fits in, see:

Patrick Harpur - The Secret Tradition of the Soul;
and his:
Daimonic Reality: A Field Guide to the Otherworld (2003)

The formal tradition , it's stories, praxis, and protocols, help give us something to "push up against" and to cut down om the overgrowth of internet super shaman LARP , and making more Diaboliost Witch-Slop. Just ugh. Diabolist Witch-Slop City
 

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Lucifer: The quality of Intellect, Awareness, and Communication. Astaroth: The quality of Life, Generation, and Desire, Expansion. Beelzebuth: The quality of Death, Decay, Restriction.

By using these "handles," the magician is using them to ritually engage with the Beelzebuth/Mot pattern that the daimons perceives as itself,
Those three descriptions of them sound like three (sometimes four) description of the alchemical processes to make the philosophers stone. Specifically through the lens of jungian psychology of this being the stages of an ermegergence of self.

Lucifer could be matched to the final Rubedo or self awareness. Since he's described as the quality of having awareness.

Astaroth could be matched to Albedo. I know Albedo has to do with purification and doesn't particularly align with the description of life. I've heard people can expand too much in this state so the themes of expansion and generation are kind of present.

Then finally Belial - Nigredo or death phase. The first step into getting the philosophers and matches with the themes of Death and decay. Having to start decaying or going through turmoil for the process of self realization can start.

This is just my interpretation though and I like seeing the Alchemical phases where ever I go.
They are not always equal, and some are better than others. New Age Modern paganism and internet Plastic Shamanism , in my opinion, do not deal with Death, Judgment, and Resurrection well, except for some badly incorporated ideas borrowed from Eastern religions.
I agree with this sentiment. I feel the modern day world does not like talking about death that much. A while back ago it was more common so older traditions I think deal with it better.

The modern day though I do not fully knows how to deal with Death. But I think talking about decaying parts of nature and nothing lasting forever is very grounding. Thinking about it keeps me in touch with my humanity.

The Christians make the mistake thinking they are all bad and the modern pagan make the mistake thinking they are all good, and an adequate replacement for The One. We really do not want go back to being primitives pagans, terrified of every daimon lurking in the woods
This makes sense. Because the concept of inherently good and inherently bad thing are made instead of just accepting these spirits as they are. I think a good middle is accepting what is and not judging too quickly.

That takes years of work though to train the mind to not be quick to judgement. I think it especially help with discernment though.
 
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Those three descriptions of them sound like three (sometimes four) description of the alchemical processes to make the philosophers stone. Specifically through the lens of jungian psychology of this being the stages of an ermegergence of self.

Lucifer could be matched to the final Rubedo or self awareness. Since he's described as the quality of having awareness.

Astaroth could be matched to Albedo. I know Albedo has to do with purification and doesn't particularly align with the description of life. I've heard people can expand too much in this state so the themes of expansion and generation are kind of present.

Then finally Belial - Nigredo or death phase. The first step into getting the philosophers and matches with the themes of Death and decay. Having to start decaying or going through turmoil for the process of self realization can start.

This is just my interpretation though and I like seeing the Alchemical phases where ever I go.

I agree with this sentiment. I feel the modern day world does not like talking about death that much. A while back ago it was more common so older traditions I think deal with it better.

The modern day though I do not fully knows how to deal with Death. But I think talking about decaying parts of nature and nothing lasting forever is very grounding. Thinking about it keeps me in touch with my humanity.


This makes sense. Because the concept of inherently good and inherently bad thing are made instead of just accepting these spirits as they are. I think a good middle is accepting what is and not judging too quickly.

That takes years of work though to train the mind to not be quick to judgement. I think it especially help with discernment though.
Reminds me of how in the 18th and especially 19th century victorian times people were very much cognizant about their own mortality, you’re absolutely right about how modern society at least in the west seems to have consciously blocked that half of nature/life from their minds.

as a side note, how much do you think alchemy in the historical period was focused on philosophy vs simply turning metal into gold? It seems like modern people just assume that everything in alchemy was a spiritual allegory (in keeping with the psychological model of spirits). It seems like there’s no doubt that there were certain alchemists trying to make gold and others were definitely talking about internal transformation, the alleged rosicrucians come to the forefront of what I would think of as spiritual alchemists. I honestly haven’t studied alchemy enough to have an opinion either way, though I find it all very interesting. I’m curious to hear what someone who knows more about the subject thinks.
I actually considered buying some of the chemical apparatus associated with alchemy just to experiment with some of it, then thought better of it. It sure would be nice to convert a bunch of this scrap metal into some yellow metal. 🥸
 

FraterFraxinus

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Reminds me of how in the 18th and especially 19th century victorian times people were very much cognizant about their own mortality, you’re absolutely right about how modern society at least in the west seems to have consciously blocked that half of nature/life from their minds.

as a side note, how much do you think alchemy in the historical period was focused on philosophy vs simply turning metal into gold? It seems like modern people just assume that everything in alchemy was a spiritual allegory (in keeping with the psychological model of spirits). It seems like there’s no doubt that there were certain alchemists trying to make gold and others were definitely talking about internal transformation, the alleged rosicrucians come to the forefront of what I would think of as spiritual alchemists. I honestly haven’t studied alchemy enough to have an opinion either way, though I find it all very interesting. I’m curious to hear what someone who knows more about the subject thinks.
I actually considered buying some of the chemical apparatus associated with alchemy just to experiment with some of it, then thought better of it. It sure would be nice to convert a bunch of this scrap metal into some yellow metal. 🥸
I think most alchemists actually knew the process was at least just as much philosophical/psychological/spiritual in nature as physical and they basically scammed rich people into funding them by brewing potions and the like.

I also like Cohanas take connecting the daimons to Jungian psychology, I too, had the thought that they (the daimons) represent parts of ones psyche. I think i've also read somewhere that others also came to this conclusion.
 
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I think most alchemists actually knew the process was at least just as much philosophical/psychological/spiritual in nature as physical and they basically scammed rich people into funding them by brewing potions and the like.

I also like Cohanas take connecting the daimons to Jungian psychology, I too, had the thought that they (the daimons) represent parts of ones psyche. I think i've also read somewhere that others also came to this conclusion.
Aleister Crowley really popularized the idea that demons are just aspects of your psychology, though he went back and forth about that several times in his life. Dr skinner talks about this in some of his videos on YouTube I’ve seen.

I remember thinking once that was probably the case, then remembering how people have viewed spirits basically for the entirety of human history until Crowley and psychology I thought it might actually be more nuanced. Perhaps each spirit is a separate entity but each one has a unique connection with distinct parts of the human psyche??? It’s all so very fascinating and I’ve never been one to try and claim that my understanding of something is some kind of ultimate truth that supersedes everyone else’s.

What you’re saying about them scamming wealthy clients reminds me of what supposedly happened to Edward Kelly, of John Dee fame. Supposedly emperor rudolf threw him in prison for not following through on his promises to make gold. lol. Reminds me of Miss Cleo from back in the day. Or those “patent medicines” and “elixirs” in the 19th century 🇺🇸. At the same time nearly everything of modern chemistry comes from alchemy. Fascinating crossroads.
 

MorganBlack

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I really like Gordon and Jake Stratton-Kent, but Jake is pretty much responsible for giving pagan diabolism (a relatively new thing) an appearance of academic validity.

And Gordon is pretty responsible for giving plastic shamanism a huge boost. The use of the word "animism" in modern occultism is very much due to Gordon's original intellectual rigor .

All good, but people forgot how much of what we might call "Bad Jungianism" or even " Bad Neoplatonism" 20th-century magic was stuck in. Now that has given way to the"Bad Paganism" of the plastic shaman.

I think Gordon is trying to correct some of the unintended cascade effects here.

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The 20th-century "spirits are part of my brain meats" view - and much of the plastic shamanism / diabolist paganism hot take they are totally external "gods, " are both, as Gordon might say, "insufficiently true."

I do get a bit peeved with him because I know all his source material, and feel he strings people along a bit, to get them hooked on theprocess. . He has a paid member's area. I am like, "Motherfucker, this shit is not all that hard IF you gave people access to the same source material I know we’ve both read.

To that end, here the excellent materal I read back in the 1990's, that set me right, from the othewise e Bormer edge-lord book, Hyatt and Black's 'Pacts with the Devil'.

-----------------------
-----------------------

Since people have a perfectly natural aversion to being thought silly,
crazy, or criminal—or for that matter thinking it of themselves—magic
has quite naturally become “pop psychology” or “meditation.” Which, of
course, from our point of view, much of it is.

This is definitely not to say that every evocation produces genuine
contact with what seems to be an alien entity. Far from it. The majority of
such experiences lay in a grey area rather like Jung’s experience of “active
imagination.” This might be material from one’s unconscious, or it might
be “something else.”

JUNG & THE ARCHETYPES

Since Jung was mentioned, we might as well examine his theory of the
“collective unconscious.” This has been used for decades by well-read
occultists to justify both the operations of ceremonial magic and the idea
that it is explained by psychology.

There is a subtle distinction between what Dr. Jung actually wrote when
he formulated his idea and what it is popularly thought to be. The popular
idea of his collective unconscious is that we all share similar “archetypes”
and myth patterns in the depths of our minds that are somehow passed on
through DNA. So, locked in our skulls, we share images of gods, dragons,
fairies, etc. This idea is fine so far as it goes, but it is not what Carl Jung
believed, according to his writing.

For Jung, the collective unconscious was something shared by everyone,
but he did not believe it was bounded by any individual skull. That is, it
was a metaphysical mind or space that interpenetrated everywhere, and
could produce phenomena inside a person, or in the outside physical world
itself,
with equal ease. He also believed that this continuum contained
knowledge of everything that has ever happened. In Mysticism, Psychology
& Oedipus
the Jungian analyst Dr. J. Marvin Spiegelman said of Jung’s
ideas in relation to magic:

Jung had concluded that beyond the world of the psyche and its causal manifestations and relations
in time and space there exists a trans-psychic reality (the collective unconscious), where both time
and space are relativized. At that level there is acausality and space-time relativization parallel to
the findings in physics.

The archetypes are then conceived of as “psychoid,” i.e., not exclusively psychic… This
“psychoid archetype” is an unknowable factor which arranges both psychical and physical events in
typical patterns… The psychoid archetype lies behind both psyche and matter and expresses itself
typically in synchronistic events.

Jung understood synchronicity as an acausal principle which stands behind such events as
telepathy, clairvoyance, etc… Jung’s conception of synchronicity is a great advance in the
appreciation of occult phenomena and their linkage with both depth psychology and natural science.
However, the peculiar experience of causality in the occult field, the sense that the magician can
“will” or “produce” changes, seems not to be reached by this conception. Synchronicity helps
explain the subjective experience, so important in life, of “meaningful coincidence.”

It also provides a hypothesis for understanding divination in astrology, tarot, and the like. It does
not explain the effects of magic in invoking forces, changing patterns through ritual, effecting
healing or fulfilling desires.


While the description of synchronicity as an “acausal principal” is good,
the activity of the “psychoid archetypes” come perilously close to a
restatement of the idea of the spirit world or the astral plane, and Jung
knew it. We suspect (as have others) that he used the terms collective
unconscious and synchronicity to describe “occult” experiences that he
had had himself and dealt with clinically while avoiding what would have
been the damaging stigma of being labeled a psychical researcher.

Jung also stated that the beings that he spoke to during his “active
imagination” sessions were intelligent entities with an independent
existence outside his own mind.

In the year 1916, entities began invading his house. His children, the
staff and Jung himself observed phantom figures in the house as well as
poltergeist phenomena. This and other phenomena inspired him to write
the Seven Sermons to the Dead, a work that he implies was produced almost
in a mediumistic state.

From looking at this work and many of his letters that were published
after his death, it is clear that he was far more ambivalent on the subject
of spirits than his public statements suggested. He did “psychologize”
occult phenomena at the beginning of his career, but did so less and less
as he became older. Perhaps the most direct reference to his personal
beliefs can be found in one of the above-mentioned letters:


I once discussed the proof of identity for a long time with a friend of William James, Professor
Hyslop, in New York. He admitted that, all things considered, all these metapsychic phenomena
could be explained better by the hypothesis of spirits than by the qualities and peculiarities of the
unconscious. And here, on the basis of my own experience, I am bound to concede he is right. In
each individual case I must of necessity be skeptical, but in the long run I have to admit that the
spirit hypothesis yields better results in practice than any other.
 

Ohana

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Reminds me of how in the 18th and especially 19th century victorian times people were very much cognizant about their own mortality, you’re absolutely right about how modern society at least in the west seems to have consciously blocked that half of nature/life from their minds.

as a side note, how much do you think alchemy in the historical period was focused on philosophy vs simply turning metal into gold? It seems like modern people just assume that everything in alc
They did have a split about what was physical and what spirtual just from looking into it more since I haven't studied the history of alchemy or ancient/modern alchemical processes too much though.

I mainly just know about that one because of how famous it is and media I watch having alchemy within it. So I like connecting it other similar natured thing of three/four just as a personal something.

I think most alchemists actually knew the process was at least just as much philosophical/psychological/spiritual in nature as physical and they basically scammed rich people into funding them by brewing potions and the like.
I think it depends on the time and the location of where Alchemy is taking places. Earlier on when physical Alchemy is viewed as chemistry I don't think all of them were scamming. I don't doubt some were though. Snake oil salesman is a phrase.

Because it was so time without the printing press a lot of information could be lost more easily. So based on that historical context. The claims of Alchemy might have convinced the Alchemist themselves. Even with the printing press today people still believe in wild claims with not much evidence.

I also want to bring up how physics/science itself was called natural philosophy up until even the 19th century. (I knew Newton used the term but after looking this up I'm suprised how late this term was used).

I studied a lot of old and new physics books for a while and some of the old ones did veer into the esoteric. I forget the specific text but I remember one such one saying space was made up of the fifth element ether. Newton and a lot of scientific community (still even now) study Aristotle and other ancient Greek philosophers that pioneered not just scientific curiosities but occult as well.

There is a difference but I think the farther back you go the more science, philosophy, and occult practices weren't seen as split as they are now historically speaking.
 

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My personal opinion is that none of the 72 Goetia were ever deities at any point. Most of their names are of Latin and Greek origin (besides Belial, Asmodeus, Balaam, etc) alongside the fact that "Baal" has no resemblance in role or function to the deity they are named after. My theory is that they're just spirits that separate magicians encountered throughout history and eventually got lumped together
 
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