• Hi guest! As you can see, the new Wizard Forums has been revived, and we are glad to have you visiting our site! However, it would be really helpful, both to you and us, if you registered on our website! Registering allows you to see all posts, and make posts yourself, which would be great if you could share your knowledge and opinions with us! You could also make posts to ask questions!

Are demonized pagan gods of the Goetia their own being or apart of the original deity?

Ohana

Acolyte
Joined
Jan 2, 2026
Messages
251
Reaction score
231
Awards
3
Gordon is not advocating for the 20th-century psychological magic "model" - he's mocking it a little here for still toodling along its merry little clueless way, not aware that the late 1990's to 2016 Grimpore Revival happened, and we necomancers brought animism back from the dead. His dates are spot on. Post 2016 it all got commodified and WitchTokified.

But yeah it was considered "safe" at the time (I was there) because it kept you from looking insane. It helped you avoid the medical personnel in white lab coats, who would carry you off to a nice padded cell to be "safe" with steady injections of Thorazine.

So, when someone asks with a concerned look on their face if you "really believe in all those silly, old, and disproved primitive ideas, like God, angels, or demons?" - without having to unpack what "belief" even is - you can just go sideways-meta and frame all magic as psychodrama. It’s a way to ensure you aren't seen as one of those "stupid primitives" - like those people over there - or someone who has gone off the deep end.
Yeah. I kind of assumed he was mocking it given the context. I was more just criticizing how corperations can sometimes sanitize the occult in order to sell something because sometimes it does sound like that. Especially when they take away cultural context.

But that is a good point how people did have to pretend this was all just imaginary. I don't really get why though since people are allowed freedom of religion or to believe what you want to believe.

If someone wants to believe that deities or egregores or rune working and doesn't cause any harm. Who really cares? It's a shame the occult/magical practices became so stigmatized over time.
Post automatically merged:

Also thats technically false advertising on the part of some of the corperations selling psychological magick. I know back then it and even now sometimes it was to hide from stigma.

Some unintended consequnces though is that I mainly worked through a psychological framework previously for occult practices then something bad happened that completely blindsided me. I assumed no risk from this so couldn't watch out for the actual potential risks. Mainly just a little more honesty but understandable if cannot fully because of all the stigma accumulated for these practices.
 
Last edited:

MorganBlack

Disciple
Warned
Joined
Nov 18, 2024
Messages
670
Reaction score
1,678
Awards
8
Let me just say, I have no issue with anyone using any myths to understand the daimons (a word I use instead of 'demon' because I’m still 50% Neoplatonist) - be it Christian, pre-Christian, or even using horror fiction.

I just let them be whatever they want when they appear and try not to play mythic favorites too much. I did not plan this out intellectually, or ritualize it (like Anton La'Vey's and the Church of Satan's cringe Lovecraft rituals.)

But it turn out horror fiction is actually pretty useful because it lets you parse and interact with them - without taking their appearance overly literally- unlike modern pagans, Christians, and UFO cultists do. I think they show up this way because it is still 'free play space' before all the paranormal options get too clamped down by hard human expectations. That's my take.

(I hate it when they show up as a sprig of broccoli. That one time. Have you ever tried talking to a floating sprig of broccoli? It messes with your head. But point taken. They are not literally salad either. )

Left-hemisphere dominant people have a really hard time parsing any subject that Venns over two or more domains. So to them, the spirits are either totally demon ,or they are totally gods, (or totally UFOs, over in the Scifi-landia sub-universe) . This is not to say there are all the same class of beings. There are many of spirits who will answer to the same names.

To make it worse, the 'mental telepathy' contact crowd are mostly verbal, left-hemisphere dominant people, as far as I can tell, and that is the faculty most prone to delusions and talking to oneself.

Dr. Iain McGilchrist points out that the Left Hemisphere is the 'Talker.' It is the seat of the internal monologue. When it becomes disconnected from the Right Hemisphere's sense of the 'Whole,' it starts generating its own feedback loops. The 'other stuff' - the Daimonic - is the reality of the One Thing breaking through.

So I also feel like everybody keeps talking around the core issue. The Catholic side gets irritated that they are being 'pagan-splained' by people who have been here for not even five minutes. Meanwhile, the 'demons-are-literally-pagan-gods' camp rightly senses there is more to the story, but because they rely solely on Unverified Personal Gnosis they can’t back up what they’re saying - so all they can do is go on the attack. That will not convince anybody who is not already in agreement with the thesis.

We need better models. The 'mind vs. matter' debate is a dead end. The metal-evocation needs to understand magicians evoking spirits we are not "breaking reality" as Jason Miller has suggested. That is absurd. As is the whole idea we are punishing them using the names of God it taking it all a bit too literally again.

Jeffrey Kripal’s take on Dual-Aspect Monism is a breath of fresh air here . (Dr. Kripal is a professor and historian of religions at Rice University. GO red his stuff! ) It offers a way to heal the divorce between science and spirituality without having to ditch your brain or your soul at the door.

Mind and Matter are not two different 'things.' Instead, they are two different manifestations of the same underlying reality: The One Thing, sometimes called "God", in the olden days.

So imagine having an experience of a daimon, a fae, or a UFO:

One side is the physical world (matter, neurons, physics).

The other side is the mental world (consciousness, meaning, subjective experience).

The daimon / fae / crytpid, or UFO itself is part of a 'neutral' "stuff" that is neither purely mental nor purely physical, but the source of both.

Personally, I think this "field" has timing and layers of Sheldrakian morphic fields of sympathy, values, precedent, symbolism, and synchronicity. These can even be mapped using, in part, by traditional magic timings and other things.

Call them using the CE5 protocol and odds you'll get a UFO and not Asmodai - in part becasue your expecting to - to the "One Thing" rewrites reality for you - and part becasue that is just the sub-universe you're in at that time. In that sense CE5 protocols have power there, but not where I am. That "spot" is taken up by the Grimorium Verum, and i don't feel like switching my brand of cigarettes to one that tastes wrong to me.
 
Top