Bardon's Bullshit 'Kabbalah'

[Celestia]

I agree, you've made some sharp but fair points. To clarify, I'm not saying that you're holding Bardon's work to the standards of science or medicine. The point I'm making is that this area of study is not as verifiable or objective as those areas of study. It was a point made to accentuate the fact that some level of evidentiary forgiveness is kind of needed in occult study. I'm arguing that point anyway, in the interest of being reasonable, though you're of course free to disagree.

Are there any other authors that you believe hold up better to scrutiny? There's nothing wrong at all with disapproving of Bardon. Is there someone you would recommend taking a look at instead?

 

[ihateclowns]

From Bardon's book-

The formula "Joe-Hoe-W" brings about perfect harmony in the mental, astral and material worlds, i.e., if used mentally, astrally and materially -- eucharistically -- which then must result in perfect health.

Must result in perfect health. lol How much clearer can it be? I picked one of the formulas dealing with health, there are others in his book. Bardon was quite unhealthy and if he hadn't committed suicide, he'd have died young anyway. So much for results. And Bardon did try to improve his health, to little effect (ie using spagyrics), so the idea that he didn't use his own system is nonsense.

What Bardon did was take the Hebrew out of the Sepher Yetzirah and then shoehorn the German alphabet into it (it's not a perfect correspondence but it's close enough). Then people call this 'hermetics'. It's somewhat odd, particularly if you study how these alphabets evolved.

Investigating it I could see there is some energy in the system, but no one has or ever will achieve a lot of the results claimed in his book. This is supposed to be the jewel of Bardon's long practices, but he couldn't even use it to heal himself. It can cause the practitioner to experience various 'divine' 'highs' (hence some of its reputation, outside of the fairy tales told about Bardon), but as an esoteric system to achieve the highest, it falls flat. As well the practical results claimed are nonsense, no one achieves most of them.

I understand most would feel the same, some schools crucify him for making such complicated system but if you think the Yoga of India is no different, it has a strict code of ethics long arduous practice for decades away from civilisation and who stuck to their guns get to behold the ultimate reality in their hands and they play with world like a toddler plays with toys.

Bardon took many concepts from Yoga and Hinduism, his thought control methods are from Raja Yoga of Patanjali (that is why Crowley wanted his students to learn Patanjali's Aphorisms for beginners) and many years ago some on occult subreddit provided proofs of his correspondence with Swami Sivananda a great Yogi and liberated being who clarified confusions Bardon had in Raja Yoga. Besides Bardon had few private disciples and wasn't fancy either. He gave the system with the sequential steps and there is no hegemony at any state, no amateur or no adept only those who just practice his system for decades consider themselves as adepts but how would you know if such a person is an adept, you certainly can't peep into his mind but can only verify through the physical results.

Some people who deify him and look down up on other systems are no different from elites which Bardon didn't want except that he said with conviction that sooner or later people would find his methods to be the most workable because without mind control and meditation no magic is possible.

You are right most wouldn't achieve what Bardon set out for people to do but unless you travel the path and have seen the end you have no authority to say the path is wrong or it leads no where, Gandalf travelled a lot that is why he acted as guide to the Fellowship and no one else.

 

[Celestia]

I understand most would feel the same, some schools crucify him for making such complicated system but if you think the Yoga of India is no different, it has a strict code of ethics long arduous practice for decades away from civilisation and who stuck to their guns get to behold the ultimate reality in their hands and they play with world like a toddler plays with toys.

Bardon took many concepts from Yoga and Hinduism, his thought control methods are from Raja Yoga of Patanjali (that is why Crowley wanted his students to learn Patanjali's Aphorisms for beginners) and many years ago some on occult subreddit provided proofs of his correspondence with Swami Sivananda a great Yogi and liberated being who clarified confusions Bardon had in Raja Yoga. Besides Bardon had few private disciples and wasn't fancy either. He gave the system with the sequential steps and there is no hegemony at any state, no amateur or no adept only those who just practice his system for decades consider themselves as adepts but how would you know if such a person is an adept, you certainly can't peep into his mind but can only verify through the physical results.

Some people who deify him and look down up on other systems are no different from elites which Bardon didn't want except that he said with conviction that sooner or later people would find his methods to be the most workable because without mind control and meditation no magic is possible.

You are right most wouldn't achieve what Bardon set out for people to do but unless you travel the path and have seen the end you have no authority to say the path is wrong or it leads no where, Gandalf travelled a lot that is why he acted as guide to the Fellowship and no one else.

Another thing worth mentioning as well is that if someone deifies an author, does anyone really have control over that?

Like, if an author dies, and a number of people decide to deify him, is that the author's fault? If the author is asking to be deified, I get it. Then sure, I can see how that would hurt the author's credibility. That's literally an example of personal ego.

My understanding is that in Bardon's case, he was not asking to be mythologized.

But still, I can agree with Beyond Everything here, that that still can mean an individual is "overhyped", sure. The claims being made by other people after the author's death are more extravagant than appropriate.

But again I have to wonder, does an author exist who did state that any health condition could be healed, and who did actually do it (recorded as fact)? I can't think of one. Maybe Jesus, who wasn't an author, but fits that mold. He claimed to heal others using holy/divine powers, and it was recorded that he did it (according to the books, anyway).

But I don't know of a lot of occult authors who claimed to heal themselves and then were actually able to do it.

But I'll give one small example of a rare healing that is recorded as actually happening (as recorded, anyway). This is not an inventor of an occult system, but rather a supposed historical story of someone who healed using non-medical means. Some consider this book a work that belongs in the category of Hermetics (very loosely), some don't. The Healing of Rodolphe Grivel (detailed in the book by Fabre D'Olivet). There's essentially no information out there other than the book itself, so this is quite literally a bit of an esoteric work. But in the book, this man heals from a congenital condition using a change in consciousness/internal state. Allegedly. Another difficulty here is that there is no actual historical account of the man in the book having existed. The author supposedly is verified as existing (Fabre D'Olivet). But it's not verified that Rodolphe Grivel was an actual person.

So again, we have missing pieces here. Here's a story of someone who actually healed by changing their inner state. But was it even a true story? This is fully anecdotal.

Trying to find someone who created an occult system that heals people, and then proves it by actually doing it, is going to be pretty tough. Does anyone know of one? As far as I know, there are usually missing pieces.

 

[Beyond Everything]

I understand most would feel the same, some schools crucify him for making such complicated system but if you think the Yoga of India is no different,

You're not addressing my very specific points about Bardon's Kabbalah and his lack of ability to implement his claims in that book. So, irrelevant.

and many years ago some on occult subreddit provided proofs of his correspondence with Swami Sivananda a great Yogi and liberated being who clarified confusions Bardon had in Raja Yoga.

So he exchanged letters with someone. So what? And I'm curious how you personally know if someone is liberated or not. I define liberation as someone who has accomplished the creation of a higher immortal subtle body. Have you had an OBE in which you encountered Sivananda? If you haven't had some sort of experience like that, then you're just parroting religious talking points ---which really doesn't interest me.

, no amateur or no adept only those who just practice his system for decades consider themselves as adepts

So there are no adepts but people who practice a lot consider themselves adepts?

w would you know if such a person is an adept, you certainly can't peep into his mind but can only verify through the physical results.

The physical results are very, very important- considering the claims made in his own books. I get people are in denial, so I have to keep bringing it back to this reality.

Some people who deify him and look down up on other systems are no different from elites which Bardon didn't want except that he said with conviction that sooner or later people would find his methods to be the most workable because without mind control and meditation no magic is possible.

Magic is a natural ability of humans. Some people with no training or meditation practice whatsoever can simiply visualize a goal and have it manifest- or do a bit of candle magic and get a result. Meditation is of course absolutely vital for esoteric development, though.

You are right most wouldn't achieve what Bardon set out for people to do but unless you travel the path and have seen the end you have no authority to say the path is wrong or it leads no where, Gandalf travelled a lot that is why he acted as guide to the Fellowship and no one else.

lol@authority.

Tolkein is quite dull to me. What I have enjoyed are some of the writings that inspired him, particularly the Norse sagas. They are weirder and more interesting/ambiguous than Tolkein. But that's for another thread.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 8:39 PM

Another thing worth mentioning as well is that if someone deifies an author, does anyone really have control over that?

Well, who knows what he was telling his secretary lol. That aside, the larger problem is what Bardon implied about himself. In writing the Kabbalah book, he never once said 'well, some of this Ive approached, but really when I say these letters can bring perfect health, I myself have not experienced that'. I don't see how one can get around this fact.

But I don't know of a lot of occult authors who claimed to heal themselves and then were actually able to do it.

Well, so far I've only authored some internet posts, but as I've said- I've healed myself more than once. While not from something like late-stage cancer, they were serious enough situations.

 

[Hermetika]

Maybe he did achieve perfect health - spiritually. But failed on the physical immortality part.

 

[AlfrunGrima]

I don't disagree. One of my main points is that I'm just saying....if you're going to be taking occult/esoteric/alt-spiritual books seriously, get ready to find incomplete work.

Which is highly true. What a person publish in a book or says in a community about their magic, is never the complete story. If you read their texts, you don't have their experiences, their complete backgrounds, their brain connections, their emotions and their diary entries. You always miss a part of the story. That makes that you always miss a fair opportunity to really asses what is going on. That is one of those things that makes occult so occult.

 

[ihateclowns]

My understanding is that in Bardon's case, he was not asking to be mythologized.

But still, I can agree with Beyond Everything here, that that still can mean an individual is "overhyped", sure. The claims being made by other people after the author's death are more extravagant than appropriate.

But again I have to wonder, does an author exist who did state that any health condition could be healed, and who did actually do it (recorded as fact)? I can't think of one. Maybe Jesus, who wasn't an author, but fits that mold. He claimed to heal others using holy/divine powers, and it was recorded that he did it (according to the books, anyway).

But I don't know of a lot of occult authors who claimed to heal themselves and then were actually able to do it.

But I'll give one small example of a rare healing that is recorded as actually happening (as recorded, anyway). This is not an inventor of an occult system, but rather a supposed historical story of someone who healed using non-medical means. Some consider this book a work that belongs in the category of Hermetics (very loosely), some don't. The Healing of Rodolphe Grivel (detailed in the book by Fabre D'Olivet). There's essentially no information out there other than the book itself, so this is quite literally a bit of an esoteric work. But in the book, this man heals from a congenital condition using a change in consciousness/internal state. Allegedly. Another difficulty here is that there is no actual historical account of the man in the book having existed. The author supposedly is verified as existing (Fabre D'Olivet). But it's not verified that Rodolphe Grivel was an actual person.

So again, we have missing pieces here. Here's a story of someone who actually healed by changing their inner state. But was it even a true story? This is fully anecdotal.

You make fair argument why Bardon couldn't heal by his own methods, it would have certainly corroborated his claims about his system but say if he makes such a claim in his books would anyone have been able to verify except his close disciples? What if he made such a claim and one of his disciples calls out he was bluffing would anyone be able to verify that as well?

Also considering his livelihood was naturopath he suffered health issues, surprising isn't it? We don't know why he didn't heal but the argument that he couldn't heal himself so why should anyone trust his methods and system is definitely welcomed but as long as no one knows the exact reasons he shouldn't be blamed or held responsible. Why because this amounts to the same argument of people believing in anything any author writes without verifying the claims and if you were to ask such a person how would you know the person has no answer. Making exaggerated claims is a common thing among occult authors but there is no way for anyone to verify except those who deify such authors who subscribed to those authors' methods fiercely argue or proven to themselves by their own hard work, last of which are very rare.

As he mentioned in IIH he was guided by Divine Providence and other masters to give a system for people who want to genuinely begin their journey to Divine Providence, may be he wasn't interested to live longer as he must have felt that his life's work was done no one knows will ever know.

My point is no one has has any right to criticise any author or any system, say if I want to criticise Crowley for his pomp and extravagance, his sexual decadence with young boys etc his fans wouldn't like to hear and would attack me if I were to say such things. Someone in other thread about 'Chaos Magick being impossible for beginners' said Crowley took the curriculum of GD and added his own flair for Thelema and it is no different from what Chaos Magicians do. And I'm extending that argument to Bardon even, he took a lot from Yoga and Hinduism and some from Hermeticism and created his own methods & system. Can anyone disagree to this?

Saying this would be blasphemous for Bardon's fans but he removed the physical aspect of Yoga which is Hatha Yoga and focused mostly on the mind part which is Raja Yoga adding little toys to play with on psychic realms in IIH. Also he does say the student on his path of IIH needs something physical to keep him/her fit, I can argue fiercely if I want on this but it won't help me except wasting my time.

If people attack anything or anyone it is just because of their ego nothing else, people who are genuinely disappointed after being on the path for years and years and haven't achieved anything are rare and they rarely attack they would almost always say they learnt something and some steps did help on their magical journey. You won't see Bardonists defending Bardon fiercely by attacking other systems or authors that is a test of someone on the path.

Post automatically merged: Today at 3:21 AM

Man I'm not going to reply to your each and every argument, you have your own definition for things and you want proof as per your criteria universe doesn't work that way, truth has its own criteria to be recognised and appreciated.

Have it your way Bardon was a charlatan and he is fooling people, may be you can make it your life's work to prove Bardon wrong and write books. Good luck.

 

[Beyond Everything]

As he mentioned in IIH he was guided by Divine Providence and other masters to give a system for people who want to genuinely begin their journey to Divine Providence, may be he wasn't interested to live longer as he must have felt that his life's work was done no one knows will ever know.

He attempted to use spagyrics to heal himself, and he had plans for more books, so saying he wasn't interested in living longer doesn't seem likely. at least previous to his imprisonment by the communists...the imprisonment he didn't forsee happening, despite the spirits he listed that will tell you the future and the letters that grant omniscience and future knowledge...and inculcating a belief in divine providence is a good way to limit what you can achieve. I mean if an imaginary 'god' forbids something, then you're hampering yourself at minimum.

Have it your way Bardon was a charlatan

I don't know how I'd characterize him. What is the psychology of someone who writes perfect health can be achieved through their practices, while they themselves are sickly?

If people attack anything or anyone it is just because of their ego nothing else,

lol such a trite cliche in 'spiritual' circles. It also brings to mind something nietzsche quipped 'his vanity offends my vanity'. just substitute the word ego for vanity and it often fits.

 

[BBBB]

Assessing a path so quickly in 2-3 weeks is not doing justice to the path, besides Bardon's system is not solely for magick he himself says in the book but for mastery over oneself and the world through which one can attempt to realise Divine Providence. Your point on chaos magicians won't be comfortable with Bardon's system is fine but if anyone were to ask what is your objective of doing magick what would be your answer?

Usually most people want control on and in their lives - more money, more sex, more experiences, comfort and security but no one of those can help you with achieving mastery over yourself. One can use cookbooks or do rituals from GOM books make quick money go back to playing video games or get laid to overcome the dry spell because those are exactly made for achieving results rather quick results. People who use those methods don't need to know how it works many don't care either, they are happy with money rituals, sex rituals and some people do hexing to put a balm on their hurt ego.

Also would these systems or cook books help you to explore the entire cosmos the planetary sphere, different realms, the beings that fill those realms?

Bardon's system is made for people with a lot of heavy Saturn in their charts who don't get lucky with simple sigil magic or even servitors. You may have come across a good percentage of people who get frustrated repeatedly because their magic is not working their sigils aren't delivering results, they don't know if their servitors are really helping or not because they can't make out, Bardon's system is for such unlucky and unfortunate people who struggle with so many methods and systems but seen results no where.

Saturn is the gate keeper who lets only qualified people to take a peak into the vast secrets of cosmos but it won't be without hard work and I'm very confident Saturn oversees the progress of those working hard on the Bardon's path. Bardon's system is where will power is forged, iron is heated and hammered repeatedly till the finished product is a sharp sword.

Also if you think Bardon's system is set up for failure or rather with flaws how do you think some people like William Mistele worked on the path for over 4.5 decades wrote such voluminous details on his site about his experiences and his extensive work with Mermaids as elementals?

Every system is made for certain kind of people no system is better than the others but serves a particular purpose and people have no right to call any system flawed, it is like expecting your cat to fly and getting mad why he isn't flying.

Thank you for the pointer about William Mistele. I'll bring up your reply from another topic, since it's perfect. Saturn demands walking the talk and talking only after you've walked an extra mile. Topicstarted didn't even look at the system, criticizing author's claims and biography, but hermetically speaking a letter could do exactly what Bardon said! The question is, could it be integrated? Not understanding hermetic principles, while trying to "debunk" a hermetical system... You people are super-friendly to this sloppy critic.

It's telling how Beyond Everything completely ignored all your arguments about people actually practicing Bardon's system and publishing their results. You will never aggree on a purely "theoretic" basis with Beyond Everything, simply because he doesn't even touch the theory, it's all about beliefs and author's personality - again, telling, since Bardon didn't invent his system alone, he had all the history of accumulated knowledge from East and West at his disposal in Czechoslovakia. And beliefs, everybody has them. One of the biggest fallacies in talking about oppinions is not recognizing when the opponent doesn't care for the truth and wants to "win" at all costs.

So yeah, let him have his oppinion. I only argued because it's exactly because of bigots like that I found Bardon later, but then it's perfect, because now I also have real teachers. Have you seen Mark Rasmus workshops? One look at the curriculum makes me laugh at Beyond Everything's pretense. Let him study his "superior system" he keeps secret. Mark Rasmus is a very practical, down to earth practitoner who works different angles and combines them - this is obvious even from his free YT channel. That at least calls for more investigating into Bardon's hermetics. I have dropped attempting to convince Beyond Everything to at least accept Bardon as hit and miss author. I am mostly posting for a possible future curious people who would want to decide if Bardon's worth looking into. He is.

 

[Ziran]

@Celestia,

Thank you for the rich detailed post.

Does this mean every teacher of manifestational, hermetic-like, kabbalistic/qabbalistic or pseudo-kabblaistic ideas are all peddling a bunch of useless nonsense?

That's the million dollar question when it comes to occultism isn't it? Why do we collect and read this crazy stuff that mainstream society thinks is nonsense?

There's a method in the madness.

Studying the edge cases, at the extremes, is specifically useful for isolating the most significant underlying mechanisms contributing to the phenomena. Trigonometry, for example, studies "perfect triangles" and the relationships between the angles and the length of the sides, then applies those underlying relationships to "non-perfect" triangles. Also statistics and probabilities are other good examples where the extremes are studied.

From the kabalistic construct, one considers the sephirot in isolation, at their extremes, to cultivate a sensitivity to the way in which they are manifesting, here-and-now, in the material world. Once an individual is aware of the manner in which they are manifesting in the material world, then one becomes aware of how they are manifesting within their own heart-and-mind. And from this one becomes aware of how they are manifesting within others. And from this, an individual can create the circumstances where miracles can happen.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Thank you for the pointer about William Mistele.

Mistele, the guy who creeps on attractive women and tells them they are mermaids? lol

I'll y, but hermetically speaking a letter could do exactly what Bardon said!

'hermetically speaking' meaning 'in someone's fantasy'. Because no one including Bardon demonstrates it. So , really, what are you even talking about that has any relation to reality?

it's all about beliefs and author's personality

Nope, my man, it's about results.

Mark Rasmus is a very practical, down to earth practitoner

Rasmus is an overweight guy (why didn't he use Bardon's work to fix that? hmmm?) trying to make money.

 

[ihateclowns]

Thanks for your input and I believe there is no point in endless debates and arguments, life is very short people act like they will live forever unless confronted with death. I won't blame the OP because I was him when I was new to occult long back attacking others because ego likes it to feel superior but I have travelled enough to realise that ego is the one who is holding me back in life especially spiritual and occult journeys.

Ultimate Truth of this existence is so ambiguous that there is room for as much as confusion one can deal with that is why we have so many religions, mythologies and cults even then why should path of occult be dis-ambiguous and black & white? If any by definition of occult and its nature it should be more dis-ambiguous.

Post automatically merged: Today at 6:21 AM

If any by definition of occult and its nature it should be more ambiguous.*

 

[Beyond Everything]

life is very short people act like they will live forever

Agreed. That's why if someone reads Bardon's Kabbalah work and thinks "hey, I'll be able to obtain perfect health and astral immortality doing this stuff" it's good to be disabused of this notion and take another route.

 

[ihateclowns]

Agreed. That's why if someone reads Bardon's Kabbalah work and thinks "hey, I'll be able to obtain perfect health and astral immortality doing this stuff" it's good to be disabused of this notion and take another route.

As @BBBB mentioned above, to you only your idea of winning seems to matter without using the accepted criteria to arrive at truth. You are so concerned about Bardon's third book while completely ignoring the first two. IIH alone takes decades for an average reader provided he is also doing something for physical part and many don't focus on the physical part. DaMo created Kung-fu for Shaolin monks because he found their bodies to be weak which was preventing them to sit for meditation for long hours which is the same reason for which physical part of Yoga which is Hatha Yoga is there before dealing with mind part which is Raja Yoga so that the student can sit for very long hours in meditation and explore the states of mind.

Bardon created a system focusing almost on mind with a caveat for the student to take care of the physical aspect. Now someone who worked with IIH for decades or at least mastered every step to his satisfaction following the guidelines Bardon gave is only qualified to move on to the second book PMI which is all about magic and exploring the realms universe has. It would take few more years or decades even for a practitioner to explore everything PMI has to offer depending on the extent of mastery of complete IIH.

Some people think certain steps in IIH are similar to some steps in another system and think they are qualified to proceed to PMI to only get disappointed. Very few people actually in this life would have seen through all the practices in IIH and PMI and those who also worked with 'The Key to the True Kabbalah' can be counted on fingers globally.

When you get onto the path of occult you have to have clear goals and objectives because the path sucks you into it, it is an endless rabbit hole the more you dig the more you get into and you will get confused with different systems, methods and claims of authors. Looking back you would only feel you have wasted years and decades and achieved nothing. But if you are only skimming through the vast expanse of occult just for curiosity then you would be fooling yourself if you think you have any right to comment on anything without actually stepping into the waters and see how deep they go.

For those on Bardon path some may be satisfied with the results in IIH for their goals that they don't need to go to the end of the book itself let alone exploring the PMI. Also those who worked with IIH and PMI for decades having seen and experienced things when starting on the third book wouldn't criticise Bardon like you are doing - Bardon couldn't heal himself because they have seen what the system can deliver so there is no reason to do so because their ego would have been put in its proper place to serve the higher purpose of journeying towards Divine Providence.

Those who want to use black magic or do hexes to hurt others to satisfy their ego or who want to build Lodges or schools to have large number of followers would find not only the path extremely arduous but also indigestible. The path is open to anyone who is willing to put hard work to improve him/herself and be useful to other denizens of this planet from all realms.

Post automatically merged: Today at 3:11 PM

PME* instead of PMI throughout

 

[Celestia]

Have it your way Bardon was a charlatan and he is fooling people, may be you can make it your life's work to prove Bardon wrong and write books. Good luck.

If you're replying to me....that's not my stance. I actually like Bardon's system. I'm only playing devil's advocate here. That's not my stance at all. I'm not here to prove him wrong, but we're examining everything in this discussion, so I'm just trying my best to look at all sides.

I was only playing devil's advocate and entering into dialectic discourse to help out Beyond Everything. If I'm correct, he's disappointed with Bardon, and I say that's ok.

A question I have for everyone is: if Bardon and Crowley are shams, who is better? Does someone have a better author/system that we should rely on, where there's proof that it works and that they healed?

I would like to be proven wrong, but my stance is, probably not. These authors and their flawed, incomplete systems are the best we have. That's occultism/esoterica. That's why it's controversial.

And I'm ok with reading and even potentially practicing something unproven. My point is, you pretty much have to be ok with that in this area of study.

If someone wants treatments that are proven with practitioners who have documented proof as healers....you'd have to look at allopathic medicine. Doctors would be the ones in our society today. We no longer rely on shamans and medicine men.

But for me personally, I like what Bardon brings to the table. I personally wish he hadn't died, because I wish I could see what else he had to say.

I just figure that in discussions like this, I want to consider everyone's side deeply, rationally, and fairly.

I also do empathize with those upset that Bardon is being criticized here. But I wanted to give the criticisms a deep and fair shake as well.

I feel that we have, mostly, at this point. Bardon's work is up in the air, IMHO, and it depends on whether you want to believe it or not.

Personally, I'm someone with a neurological disease. It has absolutely wrecked my life. A huge portion of my shelves is dedicated to healing. It's probably one of the most controversial parts of occultism today, because when you start to talk about going outside of mainstream medicine, people get nervous. My first occult book ever purchased was Mental Therapeutics by William Walker Atkinson. It might still be my favorite to this day. People criticize the hell out of W.W.A. as well because of The Kybalion. But 'Mental Therapeutics' is in alignment with Bardon's ideals. Atkinson recommends repetition of affirmation to program the subconscious mind. He recommends looking in the mirror to program your vessel/body more deeply, among other techniques.

Personally, I see esoteric study on a topic as a practice of piecing together all of the little fragments we have. It's an experiment, a journey, and an experience. I try to let go and see what's there. Personally, I think when you combine a little bit of Atkinson, a little bit of Bardon, a little bit of Crowley, etc., you start to see something really interesting. That's my personal take anyway.

One thing I've learned is that you can't make any one person your messiah. People do that with modern figures like Joe Dispenza. You will be disappointed. Every human is human. They're eventually going to show flaws, ego, contradictions, etc.

I just take a position of one foot inside the door, one foot out. For example, I've confirmed that Joe Dispenza was telling a few white lies in his programs. I have all of them. During his courses, he takes a break to give little anecdotes to keep people's interest (they are hours-long lectures). In one story, he claimed that after meditating ahead of time, he went to the airport and was scanned by the millimeter wave scanner (the one where you raise your hands, not the metal detector), and the TSA agent saw a large glowing spot on his heart. He said they pulled him aside. My understanding is that this is impossible. Then again, I could be wrong. I'm always willing to be wrong.

But I've also researched a lot of claims he's made, particularly in the core course material, and have found it to be relatively correct. I mean, within reason. I'm not able to back everything up with the gold standard of, peer-reviewed studies necessarily.

My point is this: I can admit that someone has flaws and still take information from them. Just because they were a flawed human, were wrong, or made mistakes, doesn't mean that everything they ever wrote or taught was wrong. I think a lot of people have made that point here, and I have to agree. Just because Bardon got sick, died, and basically had a similar end as Crowley doesn't mean his ideas were bunk. Not necessarily.

I definitely did not mean to cause any upset in anyone's direction, I just wanted to give the examination a deeply clear shake. I think everyone has made some great points.

I'm not sure if we can find someone better than Bardon, Atkinson, Crowley, etc. They're all flawed in some way. My take is basically....that that's not ideal, but that's ok.

 

[Beyond Everything]

As @BBBB mentioned above, to you only your idea of winning seems to matter without using the accepted criteria to arrive at truth. You are so concerned about Bardon's third book while completely ignoring the first two

Accepted criteria? lol The criteria I'm using is simple- Bardon stated perfect health would be achieved using the letters, and he was very far from perfect health. I can't imagine a more relevant criteria. The problem is -and I've seen this for many years- that so many occultists are too much in a fantasy world to accept the test of real results. I put this down to various factors, including the pernicious influence of religion and a lack of confidence in their own practices on deep levels of their being.

The topic IS the third book and Bardon's lack of results, so make a different thread of your own if you dont like that....but a lot of the criticisms can be pointed at the second book as well. I mean he claimed the spirits there can help with the same things (including the Philosopher's Stone lol).

.

Bardon created a system focusing almost on mind with a caveat for the student to take care of the physical aspect. Now someone who worked with IIH for decades or at least mastered every step to his satisfaction following the guidelines Bardon gave is only qualified to move on to the second book PMI which is all about magic and exploring the realms universe has. It would take few more years or decades even for a practitioner to explore everything PMI has to offer depending on the extent of mastery of complete IIH.

irrelevant. Bardon's persistent ill health and his lack of foresight in not emigrating are enough to demonstrate the claims of perfect health, protection, clairvoyance, and future knowledge for both the spirits in the second book and the letters in the third book do not hold water in reality. Period. Reread what I just wrote there. Everything else is just refusal to look at those facts and maintain a fantasy.

And there are people selling products to 'help' people work with the third book. I can just look at some of these people and tell they don't live up to Bardon's claims. And you can investigate the letters energetically if you're experienced enough outside of Bardon's own regimen.

a couple other points regarding thigns you mentioned-

I don't believe in Divine Providence, and I haven't found lack of belief in that an impediment towards my own process of transmutation towards a higher subtle body (just the opposite in fact). Looking at this world and where humans are headed as a whole you have to be quite naive (to put it kindly) to believe in such religiously-based nonsense. As well it hampers the 'subconscious' in achieving material goals....gee, inculcating yourself with the idea some 'god' is going to block some of your attempts might not be such a bright idea. Who would have thought? lol

And finally I never said everything Bardon wrote was worthless. I said he was overrated, and he didnt achieve the very results he claimed could be attained. Simple.

 

[Celestia]

Beyond Everything, to be frank, you keep repeating yourself. I think you've made your stance clear. But regardless, you don't think you've made your stance clear. So this is going to be a very long thread in the end.

Can you answer this question: Have you found someone that you think is more credible than Bardon?

 

[Beyond Everything]

Beyond Everything, to be frank, you keep repeating yourself. I think you've made your stance clear. But regardless, you don't think you've made your stance clear. So this is going to be a very long thread in the end.

I'm replying to replies. The replies to me for the most part don't address my very specific points about Bardon's Kabbalah. So Yes, Im repeating myself.

Can you answer this question: Have you found someone that you think is more credible than Bardon?

In terms of higher occult development? Not really. People who really get places generally don't write books lol

I've gotten basic ideas from books that I then took and ran with on my own, creating my own practices and perspectives.

For instance, the idea of self-reflective 'awake' consciousness a la Gurdjieff and the UR Group is very important (and Bardon doesn't talk about this, which is telling). But it's something one has to implement on their own, ie Gurdjieff groups are fossils and the UR Group ultimately didn't know what to do with it really.

Dependency is really a killer to higher development, and things are quite an individual path.