Can you be a magician and a witch at the same time?

[magick&psionics]

Idk where I heard the term maybe it was in a vision or a dream or something. But I heard the term. Magici-witch and it kinda makes sense due how in ancient greece, witches back then were called
pharmakis: which is a woman who distributed herbs, drugs and potions.
Aoidos: which is a singer or an enchantress
Nekromantis which is one who would communicate with the dead to gain future insight
And finally we have the word
Mágissa: which is a witch or sorceress

So yeah I kinda feel like magici-witch could be a term in the future

 

[OberonFromTheHills]

Nobody will stop you from being both so why not?
(Pov: i always thought that, in 2026, those terms were basically synonymous )

 

[Firetree]

Idk where I heard the term maybe it was in a vision or a dream or something. But I heard the term. Magici-witch and it kinda makes sense due how in ancient greece, witches back then were called
pharmakis: which is a woman who distributed herbs, drugs and potions.
Aoidos: which is a singer or an enchantress
Nekromantis which is one who would communicate with the dead to gain future insight
And finally we have the word
Mágissa: which is a witch or sorceress

So yeah I kinda feel like magici-witch could be a term in the future

Does a witch do magic in their practice ? I think so . So, you can be both .

It used to be poo-pooed , and there was a bit of this or that camp 'fighting' going on about it . Mhe ..... I held a magical order initiation ( several degrees ) while concurrently 2 degree in Wicca . Only issue was some snoots in the Order which looked down on Wicca . Also in our 'Order group' we had an initiate that was the local Wiccan 3rd degreee HPS , and the local head of that Order was good mates with her and they often worked together , and I often worked with thm - in a triangle . It was potent !

Post automatically merged: Thursday at 2:55 AM

Here is a bit of both

 

[dcwilson]

Idk where I heard the term maybe it was in a vision or a dream or something. But I heard the term. Magici-witch and it kinda makes sense due how in ancient greece, witches back then were called
pharmakis: which is a woman who distributed herbs, drugs and potions.
Aoidos: which is a singer or an enchantress
Nekromantis which is one who would communicate with the dead to gain future insight
And finally we have the word
Mágissa: which is a witch or sorceress

So yeah I kinda feel like magici-witch could be a term in the future

There is no reason you can't do both! Wiccan magick doesn't have to be followed to the letter, and you can always be a solitary! Neo-Pagan groups like their own ways, but pretty much anything goes there. If you join a coven, they'll have their own way of doing things, but there is no rule I know of that prevents you from doing what you want there either. I don't know too much about the Orders, but I doubt they care one way or another; do their stuff when you're with them. You may have to ask them about it though.

 

[Feywer]

In my mind, I always kind of imagined that the term Witch referred to either a Wiccan or someone who practiced Witchcraft (as, Wicca and Witchcraft are entirely different things); and that a Magician was more into high or learned magic. I practice both, and like to use both terms. Not interchangeably, but to provide elaboration on my practices.

 

[solxyz]

There is no fundamental difference between the two. They are just general descriptors of broad trends in styles of practice and philosophy. Unless you're following a very specific ritual system, such as is taught in particular magical orders or some initiation-based covens, you can integrate whatever kinds of approaches you like.

 

[ewiz]

In my mind, I always kind of imagined that the term Witch referred to either a Wiccan or someone who practiced Witchcraft (as, Wicca and Witchcraft are entirely different things); and that a Magician was more into high or learned magic. I practice both, and like to use both terms. Not interchangeably, but to provide elaboration on my practices.

I agree, and would say this is how most people will see it. No reason why you couldn't be both or call yourself both, but they do imply different things.

 

[MorganBlack]

Without making rules for anyone:

Historically service magicians and Cunning Folk are very "witchy", as is Iberian Folk Catholic sorcery.

Then there are plenty of excellent magicians who only engage with "The Above" (the Noetic-Mind layer of reality) and never directly engage with "The Below" of the sublunar or Underworld spirits and forces.

The Grimoium Verum is my main grim. We are Solomonic magicians but also very "witchy," forming alliances with sublunar spirits in a way that looks like a witch's familiar. But we also enage with "the Above." for self-coherence and authority (btw, the best authority comes from Love and not force, just saying).

Then there are Folk Catholic necromancers who would never call themselves magicians nor witches. They're just Catholics.

There are Folk Catholic magicians who do call themselves sorcerers / bokors / brujos / brujas, are very devout Catholics , but have no issue smacking people upside the head with a 2 x4 plank of chthonic spirit sorcery or necromancy.

Then there are the 20th Century Wiccans who practice "High Magic"- Golden Dawn ritual tech reskinned with Victorian pastoral poetry - who never conjure sublunar spirits, yet call themselves witches.

I say do whatever you like. It might just work out for you, but in conversations, please be specific what "level" of reality you are calling in your own cosmo-conception.

A minor pet peeve on mine - it does not help with clarity when modern magicans and pagans confuse the planes and try to verbally elevate chthonic forces to the "Above." Not saying it won't work, but to me it looks like they are trying to trigger the Underworld Intitation through ceremonial mimicry instead of spirit contact, who hold the key to intitation here. Not to be too harsh, but I am not sure their approach works, and seems more a way for them to accesss the Above as non-Christians (all good) while LARPing they are contacting the Below (my real issue here). But still looking at it.

 

[OberonFromTheHills]

I also that a witch was using low magick (kitchen magick, hoodoo, folk stuff) while a magician was more into ceremonial magick and in more academic stuff.

Once again, it's 2026, and i see a lot of people practicing both or mixing both.

 

[MorganBlack]

Historically what "witchcraft" meant was "malefica" - magic to harm.

Gardner "reclaimed it''' - by making shit totally up - so many Anglo witches of the Wiccan school do not perform rites to harm.

What Wiccans and modern witches practice would have been called "Natural Magic" - and it's the exact same stuff, just with some names, and the cultural and intellectual framework changed around a little. It is the same stuff good Baptists rootworkers do , as well as Catholics, Muslims - all without calling it "witchcraft" in the 20th century ret-conned meaning.

What is meant by "witchcraft" in Mexico, and even "magic" in Haiti is vastly darker and meaner than very nice, kind, usually white-as driven snow Natural Magic and "folk magic" (a term taken from anthropology, and not a form of separate magic unto itself)) of Wiccans and modern witches.

That said, all good. But vauge terms makes cross cultural converation a thousand times harder than they need to be

And to another wrinkle, Natural Magic was allowed by the Church, which issued a clarification back in the 1970's that they have no issues with "white magic" even using that exact phrase. They just don't like you practicing "malefica" - meaning magic to harm... witchcraft.

So are Catholic natural magicians , practicing what they see as a Sacred Science ... witches?

I just let people call themselves whatever they want, but they also-need to define their terms, or the words lose all meaning, and just mean whatever we want them to mean in a bland post-modern soup, making future mis-understandings more frequent and severe.

 

[Mycelial_Adept]

The titles in the occult world are just human made words. the manipulation of reality is happening regardless of the method someone is skilled in. what matters are results. Personally, I have seen low magic practitioners outperform high magic practitioners repeatedly. However, that seems to come from key differences lots of "high magic" practitioners have, mainly, many high magic practitioners are often almost exclusively theoretical occultists, performing a ritual occasionally. Most do not train the body and mind which is needed. where are low magic practitioners are normally elbow deep in the work they need to do.

They being said, I know several practitioners of high magic who can produce powerful results as well, but they put in a LOT of mental/spiritual training.

Personally, I think a fusion of the two is always good. I don't understand why people get so hung up on the titles of it all though.

 

[Darkat]

It's your life, so do what you want to do. If you want to mix witchcraft with some more ceremonial magick then just go ahead and do it.
Who is going to stop you.
I happily mix witchcraft, daemonolatry and other forms of magick.

 

[Lucien6493]

I've never encountered a definition of witch or of witchcraft, let alone of magician, that has anything to do with my actual practice. Quite honestly, I really don't care because what others call me is not on me. It is a convenience. I belong to no Orders let alone Covens so I just call myself a swampy sort of feral hedge witch and leave it that, but only if you ask, because I love you, or maybe not. I practice magick, that makes me a witch. The rest is glamor, entwined with first principles (lineage) and I like it that way. I don't believe in left or right, up or down, higher or lower. I don't organize reality that way. I'm just vibing, like Circe on her rock. So, you know...Toss the bottle. Drink the sea. Tend to your haunting. I have spent a lifetime trying to wrest language from the tyranny of meaning so if you can pronounce it, call me a Chwedleuwr or a Cloud Walker. A storyteller then. A shaper of reality. A witch by any other name.

 

[MorganBlack]

On a personal level I'm supportive of whatever people want to try. They might find something good!

But I draw the line ret-conning personal things backwards in time that are not part of the historical tradition. Making new ones is fine.

I mean, I don't like to brag but I'm TOTALLY a yogi master in the totally legit school of Aggressive Microwave Yoga, Bhastrika Microwaveasana

First you have to wear this special magic robe I'll sell ya, and assume a slight squat. Stare intensely at a point on a microwave oven exactly two inches in front of your face. Hold this pose for 90 seconds to four hours while radiating pure, peevish impatience, mimicking the exact energy of waiting for leftover pizza to heat up at 2:00 AM. Channel this into your second chakra. Contort your body into a shape that defies human anatomy, realizing halfway through that you missed a step three hours ago. Hold this pose while experiencing a profound sense of isolation and a distinct lack of paremsan cheese.

 

[ahathoor]

Honestly, these are just words, and both have a long history as essentially slurs (wica and mageia / magos respectively), beautifully traced by Hutton in his book "the witoh: a history of fear"...

If the question is about neopagan witchcraft and high magic, the two are quite intertwined to begin with, and even if by witchcraft you mean traditional folk magic, well you know that nothing is true and everything is permitted /j /s /srs /rofl /lol /kallisti

btw @MorganBlack I fully agree with you on the "cthonic" work that's actually "above" work in some circles... but let's be honest, if you stare at them long enough, these categories often aren't that well fitting to begin with... for example, is Chaos "below" or "above"... the Kia is definitely an above-ish idea, and the Lord Krishna's true form revealed in the Bhagavad Gita might seem awfully cthonic, even Lovecraftian to some... and nobody would say the Lord Krisha belongs "below"...

my rushed and imperfect diagnosis is that "cthonic" has been a label artificially assigned to deities and spirits as a slur (by conquering religions) or as a label rooted in misunderstanding (by cultural anthropologists).. reality is, as usual, quite a bit more complicated

 

[MorganBlack]

my rushed and imperfect diagnosis is that "cthonic" has been a label artificially assigned to deities

'Chthonic' is just the best word for what it looks and feels like.

The Underworld Initiation is a real experience one can have. There is a 'place' where underworld forces live. Yes, it may also be mythic UI/UX we humans have made with the entities / daimons over millennia, but it speaks to a real human experience. We all die. The Underworld Initiation, the real one, and not the ceremonial mimicry per se , is eschatology, experiencing death while still alive. And loosing the hold of the ego so you can die well, and maybe gaining a couple of powers, which is weird.

I’m going to sound like an asshole for a bit, please forgive me.

If you have been taken on it, you can tell who has, and who has not. People who have do not treat it like something you can just order it up on a whim like a good hyper-consumer ordering a latte.

So I think many feel this, the sense many are on some fake-ass LARP. I like Jake and Gordon, but the whole occult scene has become deluged with "teachers" of some combination of Animistic Shaman meets Chthonic Pagan, usually with Hekate thrown in there.

To be clear, I like that stuff and support it.

But.

This is the nit I want to pick.

WTF?

Why are so many doing this AND setting up schools / getting Substack subscribers?

The Underworld Initiation is a thing... but I have no idea how to trigger it except, say, summon the GV daimons for years and one might decide "when the stars are right" to take you through the gateway and through the secret Catacombs to the Abyss. But maybe not.

Prancing around as a neopagan in a godform fancy dress just looks like ceremonial mimicry trying to trigger it through sympathetic magic (not the right tool here) and wishful thinking (also not the right tool), IMHO.

The mystical and person-changing side of "Chthonic work" (ugh, so neopagany) is deeply inconvenient. It changes you for the better, but GOD DAMN! Do you really want it to? It's really inconvenient. You can't "initiate" people into it. Only the daimons can intitate you here.

Oh, the best available-at-this-time introduction to what the Underworld Initiation looks like is not found in magic and pagan writers, or LHP New Age Satanism, but this series from a paranormal writer names Joshua Cutchin:

Ecology of Souls: A New Mythology of Death & the Paranormal
by Joshua Cutchin

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

From the intro:

This is a book of contradictions. It is a book about ghosts; it is not
about ghosts. It is a book about hauntings; it is not about hauntings.
Most importantly, it is a book about death, but it is that neither. It is
about existence.

After his 1987 book Communion became a pop-culture touchstone,
author and experiencer Whitley Strieber was inundated with
correspondence from readers detailing their encounters with the
Visitors, presumably extraterrestrial abductors. After reading thousands
of letters and compiling correlations, Whitley’s wife Anne jotted at the
top of a yellowed sheet of observations: “This has something to do with
what we call death.”

Anne Strieber’s insight haunts Ufology and, by extension, the
interconnected supernatural as a whole. Why would dead loved ones
appear in alien abductions? Why does western European faerie lore—
describing those short, subterranean spirits fond of kidnapping children
—so inextricably associate them with the dead? Why do certain
anomalous animals (i.e. cryptids) presage death?

 

[ahathoor]

So I think many feel this, the sense many are on some fake-ass LARP. I like Jake and Gordon, but the whole occult scene has become deluged with "teachers" of some combination of Animistic Shaman meets Chthonic Pagan, usually with Hekate thrown in there.

To be clear, I like that stuff and support it.

But.

This is the nit I want to pick.

WTF?

Why are so many doing this AND setting up schools / getting Substack subscribers?

The Underworld Initiation is a thing... but I have no idea how to trigger it except, say, summon the GV daimons for years and one might decide "when the stars are right" to take you through the gateway and through the secret Catacombs to the Abyss. But maybe not.

yea well... okay i'll also sound like an asshole for a moment.

these kinds of initiations are for the initiated... you said yourself, you can't teach it; if it gives one something, great; if instead all it's good for is looking down on others who had different experiences, then was it an initiation at all?

in cultures with a practice of underworld or celestial travels and initiation by spirits, the initiated practicioner often acts as a healer, protector and guide to the community... not as a purveyor of initiations by order, and rarely as ontology police; these cultures tend to have a pretty pluralistic view of the world, whether material or spiritual

yes i do see why you're annoyed, hekate isn't even a "proper" cthonic deity to begin with, and this whole "dark goddess" type tiktok paganism feels a bit too halloween hot topic to me as well...

but it really wasn't what i was talking about either... i'm primarily a wind and sky worker, and we know all too well birds and fish don't tend to understand what the other is saying...

 

[MorganBlack]

i'm primarily a wind and sky worker, and we know all too well birds and fish don't tend to understand what the other is saying...

Right right! I respect it, but also not my thing, but then I was a spooky kid.

We probably need more and better terms and not slot people into either magician or witch. The daimons adapt to the mythic structure we use in what I like to call Mythic Reflexivity, and it should be worked in, somehow, to how we talk about and share our practices.

One of the reasons I do not use the CE5 protocols to summon a 'UAP', I don't want to be in a universe where the daimons take on forms from what i consider a post-WWII dying Boomer worldview. But I will not erase what appear to be legit Underworld Initiations of many people there, even if I don't "do" aliens. The form and experience they have been through I recognize as legitimate initiations, even if I do not personally like the explicit form their daimons take. The reticence to talk about it is also part of it, because it makes you look insane, on drugs, or like a liar.

I also don't "do" the whole shamanic Nature-Mystic thing - like to become a 'real shaman' one has to go into nature and spend time communing with the trees and winds. Again, all fine, but it’s this requirement as the totalizing idea of the whole thing that irks me. Nature can help but Solomonic magic also works great in west Los Angeles. It may be harder says Skinner, but whatever.

Part of this may just be your natal chart. I was super spooky kid from urban places I adore. Call it Saturn in the City. I ritualize it with the Catholic Harrowing of Hell, but I also keep the rites I use intellectually air-gapped from the daimons to some degree. Keeps me sane. I think. They will adapt to your expectations and mythic framework to some degree.

 

[AbammonTheGreat]

Idk where I heard the term maybe it was in a vision or a dream or something. But I heard the term. Magici-witch and it kinda makes sense due how in ancient greece, witches back then were called
pharmakis: which is a woman who distributed herbs, drugs and potions.
Aoidos: which is a singer or an enchantress
Nekromantis which is one who would communicate with the dead to gain future insight
And finally we have the word
Mágissa: which is a witch or sorceress

So yeah I kinda feel like magici-witch could be a term in the future

I think archetypally the terms draw different things to mind and its intertwined with history. I personally just use witch as a gendered term - and magician as gender neutral. But really I dont think it matters that much. Women lead spaces in magic usually focus on different things and they hold certain ideas to be important that male lead spaces dont. For example the ideas of rectification of wrongs, enacting righteous vengeance, and protecting those who dont have institutional protection is something you see a lot as a part of the philosophy of the modern witch. And this makes sense because historically women didnt have the same institutional avenues for justice that men have always had - so of course they would turn to magic in these situations. Male lead spaces tend to be more focused on virtue-ethics and liturgy and so the witchier philosophy can be incongruent with the classical expressions of masculine magic (think lodge magic, ceremonial magic, etc etc). This is really what i see as the core division between wizards and witches on an essential level. A witch is justified in enacting righteous vengeance a wizard feels that the vengeance is an appeal to temptation.

However I dont think it really matters - I prefer to just use it as a gendered term to show respect towards women and women lead magical spaces but plenty of men consider themselves witches and plenty of witches practice the traditionally masculine forms of magic. I like the words magus or magician as a way to recognize wizards and witches as brothers and sisters on the path.

 

[vaughnblondetail]

Magic and sorcery are two words for the same energy, so I think it's definitely possible.