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Can you be a magician and a witch at the same time?

ahathoor

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@MorganBlack i agree with you on most of this... i hold a pretty pluralist viewpoint on life and magic, and have no reason to doubt the validity of anyone's experiences or initiations.

the whole UFO / UAP complex feels deeply unpleasant and potentially tainted for me, so i do understand your reluctance... and i don't think one needs to go in "nature" and live a pastoral fantasy in order to connect with spirits.

and yes, i do agree "witch" doesn't really carry any specific meaning today with relation to the types of spirits or powers one works with, if anything it tends to imply a more intuitive approach to magical working compared to "learned magic"...
 

akenu

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On a personal level I'm supportive of whatever people want to try. They might find something good!

But I draw the line ret-conning personal things backwards in time that are not part of the historical tradition. Making new ones is fine.

I mean, I don't like to brag but I'm TOTALLY a yogi master in the totally legit school of Aggressive Microwave Yoga, Bhastrika Microwaveasana

First you have to wear this special magic robe I'll sell ya, and assume a slight squat. Stare intensely at a point on a microwave oven exactly two inches in front of your face. Hold this pose for 90 seconds to four hours while radiating pure, peevish impatience, mimicking the exact energy of waiting for leftover pizza to heat up at 2:00 AM. Channel this into your second chakra. Contort your body into a shape that defies human anatomy, realizing halfway through that you missed a step three hours ago. Hold this pose while experiencing a profound sense of isolation and a distinct lack of paremsan cheese.
I bet that ritual robe is very similar to a bathrobe 😂
 

Robert Ramsay

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We probably need more and better terms and not slot people into either magician or witch.
I originally settled on 'wizard' because after telling a friend that I was a magician, she said "Oh, I LOVE Jerry Sadowitz!"

Also, it's not a slur, as it derives from 'wise one'.
 

akenu

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I originally settled on 'wizard' because after telling a friend that I was a magician, she said "Oh, I LOVE Jerry Sadowitz!"

Also, it's not a slur, as it derives from 'wise one'.

I personally go for either an occultist or an occult practitioner, but it is not something I would talk about publicly. Basically, just my close family knows about it.
 

marylblood

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Aside from the terms carrying different connotations, I think there's not a really useful distinction, as there's alot of overlap. Witches can have highly structured rituals and place great importance on divine connection, enlightenment, and self improvement, while magicians can do a lot of practical work with the elements and the planets toward achieving very mundane goals. I work within a tradition that's a blend of both, and for me they play very well together.
 

MorganBlack

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Also, it's not a slur, as it derives from 'wise one'.
Very much so!

I do my best live up to the name 'magician' but usually just call myself a 'sorcerer'. In my view 'Magician' is the path overall, and represents the work of a lifetime as one moves from doing magic to being magic.

To me 'Magician' is a high honorific, and includes the connotations we get from the Chaldeana of one who embodies "celestial wisdom." They loaned us the words 'magic and "magi" which gives us 'magus' and 'mage.'

But the way I look at it, in rough practical terms, with degrees of overlap:

Magician
Employs "The Above" - however the conceive of it. God, the gods, and/or Infinite Noetic-Mind, all good, in my view.

Mental magic like New Thought, Chaos magic, as well as religious magic when prayer are answered (the miracles part). Tend to not cause harm.

Looks like: magician, philosopher, priest, Solomonic magician , New Thought practitioner. Hermetic mind magic and religious magic.

Sorcerer
Employs "The Below"

Sorcery, necromancy, goetia, traditional witchcraft. This can include acts to cause harm.

Looks like: sorcerer, brujo / bruja, witch, bokor, GV magician. But also the Hoodoo practitioner, and the Curandera who both would bristle at being included here.

More on "The"Below" from JSK, which is a good lens to use to soften some of the "hard" Platonism found in Lurianic Kabbalah everyone uses.

In Western thought since before the Christian era and well into it, it was
held that the sublunary sphere was the whole extent of changing Nature.
From the Moon outwards everything was One, eternal and immutable.

Physics, as such, only applied below the Moon. Not until Copernicus was
this distinction challenged, until eventually Thomas Kuhn - physicist,
historian, and scientific philosopher - could speak of seeing change in the
'incorruptible' heavens as the epitome of a scientific paradigm shift. Simply
put, some ancient models need inverting in order to serve any purpose in
modern magic. For magical purposes, the Sublunar sphere - what is Below
- provides a more coherent model of what is Above than the false image of
the heavens can now do for what is below. Our planetary 'superiors9' can
instead be subsumed into older more terrestrial guises. But I race ahead . . .

In short, this is the magical paradigm shift employed or assumed
throughout the current work, both Archaic and harmonious with material
science.

It is important to understand that the sublunar world in Late Antiquity
was the so-called 'World of the Four Elements'. However, in its best, most
immediately useful and most developed form, the sublunar sphere was also
divided into seven, and the correspondence was extended to the planets.
Dualistic qualities were often attributed to them, including moral ones:
seven virtues and vices for example. This I propose to reverse, since in
reality, since planetary astrology is a historical development and the
cosmology involved here is far older even than history, the symbolism was
3 or can be considered as 3 having been transferred upwards rather than
downwards. In other words, these sublunar spheres commemorate far
earlier levels of myth and ritual, from which the qualities of the planets
were extrapolated subsequently. This is not to deny astrology its place,
whether calculatory or symbolic. The Celestial realm is one of the Three
Worlds, along with our Earth and the Underworld, a subject that awaits its
place.

The higher worlds are occupied by the gods and their retinues, but the
Moon is the preserve of terrestrial daimons, which is to say the dead [or
which category certainly includes the dead as a major proportion. The very
term terrestrial appears contradictory in this context, and its use shows the
pace at which ideas were evolving while terminology struggled to keep
pace. These spirits form a very important class and are not distinct from the
souls previously mentioned. The idea of a sublunary world between Earth
and the Moon, occupied by spirits or demons, was long enduring; it was
simply forgotten that most of them were former human beings. Reclassified
as Aerial demons, they are traceable in Agrippa and much demonological
lore, the angels being [considered] resident higher up, in accordance with
Christian Neoplatonist ideas. The positive aspects of sub-lunar spirits have
been eradicated from many of these later redactions, along with their
identity with the dead.

In Plutarch the essentially benign role of some
among the lunar terrestrial daimons is very apparent, and he names some
very interesting names:

The daimons do not always pass their time upon her (the moon), but
they come down hither and take charge of Oracles. They are present at
and assist in the most advanced of the initiatory rites (Mysteries). They
act as punishers and keepers of wrongdoers, and shine as saviours in
battle and at sea. Whatsoever thing in these capacities they do amiss,
either out of spite, unfair partiality, or envy, they are punished for it, for
they are driven down again to earth and coupled with human bodies.
Of the best of these genii they told him were those who wait upon (the
god) Saturn (in Elysium) now, and the same in old times were the
Idaean Dactyls in Crete, the Curetes in Phrygia, the Trophonians in
Boeotia Lebadea, and others without number in various parts of the
world… (Moralia. XII. 8On the Face in the Moon9)
 

Accipeveldare

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Idk where I heard the term maybe it was in a vision or a dream or something. But I heard the term. Magici-witch and it kinda makes sense due how in ancient greece, witches back then were called
pharmakis: which is a woman who distributed herbs, drugs and potions.
Aoidos: which is a singer or an enchantress
Nekromantis which is one who would communicate with the dead to gain future insight
And finally we have the word
Mágissa: which is a witch or sorceress

So yeah I kinda feel like magici-witch could be a term in the future
I always saw it as the same thing.
 

Ignotus

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The line between them has always been blurry anyway. Magician usually points more to structured rituals, grimoires, planetary magic... Witch leans heavier into intuition, nature, herbs, spirits, and folk practices. But in practice? Most serious practitioners end up blending both. So calling yourself a magici-witch (or whatever flows better) makes total sense. Labels are just tools.
 

ahathoor

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@MorganBlack you write "also the Hoodoo practitioner, and the Curandera who both would bristle at being included here"... So why include them if they would bristle..? One of the reasons I was originally arguing with you was that this division of all practices and spirits into "two worlds" (above and below, supralunar and sublunar, etc.) feels to me somewhat forced in many instances.
 

MorganBlack

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Ahathoor, hi!

Well, they are aribitrary to some degree, but arise out of real human needs. Everything humans have thought and believed throughout history has always been arbitrary and is usually wrong. But we make do.

And if enough of us believe something, then we warp the Dreaming / Imaginal, and it not only becomes true, but it has always been true. We just get to do that.

The "Above" (God, the gods, the Infinite Neotic-Mind are all models for this "code-level" of reality ) and it comes from our Neoplatonic heritage of Western Magic and Western civilization overall. And I agree with the critique, too much Platonism can put one too far into a Dualist universe.

That said, I am a Westerner, and though these models may seem arbitrary, they arise out of real human needs. Through sheer numbers these arbitrary things are also now the totally true things of the Western Dream. For magic it is useful to piggyback on shared realities.

You can try to make one up to, say, take on this dreamed-up thing of physics called "gravity" I keep hearing about and try to fly from the top of a tall building, but I do not recommend it. Unless you are gong to quantum-piggyback on the Big Beief Realities of the major religions magic works best covertly and slyly, at the edges where the level artists have not finished polishing up the art on Level 3. :)

Just to repeat myself, these two categories are models, are quick shorthand simplifications of the main models (dreamed-up reality) of Western Magic and Western Civilization overall - our Neoplatonic heritage on one hand (The Above), and our animist heritages, past and current, on the other (The Below).

The Above speaks to universal expressions of Thought and archetypal patterns (that we also project, imho). The Below is individualized expressions of feeling, sense-body, and sympathy. The Above is Astro-theology and the Universal Mind. The Below is using those patterns to live a good life in space-time and have some fun. Or whatever floats your boat.

Not saying you have to stick with them, but having some space between the two realms (well, three, in the shamanic Overworld, Middle World, and Underworld) is something I have found lets us include people in our conversations while also not putting them in a basket with people they do not like.

American pagans dislike dealing with the Western heritage of "The Above," so I do not force them to. But then how do they deal with astrological forces? They have a hard time here. JSK's intpretation of the Byzantine / Hellenic Sublunar model for "The Below" works pretty well here to include them without flattening-through-elevation them into Neoplatonism. I do not agree with it 100% but thar a does not mean it's not a useful way to think of it.

On the other side, my aunt was a curandera, and while a very kind and wonderful Mexican-American Catholic lady, she would faint if she were included in the company of witches.

In her mind, she works with "The Above" — called God, to her, but I'm not saying you have to call it that — but she also works with the dead. Catholicism is folk necromancy. But it is done in a Catholic universe that includes a Neoplatonic "Above" from its Hellenic roots.

Above and Below, while in my view being an "accurate enough for magic" view of the universe - the Universal Noetic Mind and localized Daimon expressions in space-time - works well. For Neville Goddard / Manifestation magic of New Thought, unless you want to say spirits are doing it all, you have to have some sort of connective glue. Now, I am fine if you make it all part of The Below, as pagans do, but that is going to raise the hackles of a lot of Hermetic magicians and Folk Catholic necomancers alike
 
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