Goetia Sigils and Dukante Sigils

[lonkia]

Hi everyone,

I’ve been reading some discussions lately where some people claim that Goetia sigils don't actually work or aren't as effective as they are made out to be. For those of you who have worked with them, what has your experience been? Do they truly produce results in your practice?

Also, I’ve recently researched Dukante sigils. I’m curious about the fundamental differences between the Goetia and Dukante sigils.

 

[Saint]

On the magic/spiritual field, you'll frequently meet people who will contradict others' claims by their experiences.
For many, it brought life changing results and rather quickly, while others will say, nothing truly happened. There's always a reason to it, and it's clearly not that the Goetia Sigil work is simply not working. It lies in them. Yes, somewhere where many prefer not to look and seek for the issues, problems.

Goetia sigils don't actually work or aren't as effective as they are made out to be

Yes, you'll see people who simply can't make them work as efficiently (or at all) for multiple reasons. Just few example:

• their methods are simply not working on sigils tied to low frequency entities , and they should find a different approach
• their energetic, psychic state that causes the disruption, so they should work on themselves first
• they simply and bluntly just fail to communicate and call forth any Infernal, at all
• their intent is unclear, clouded, spoiled or they don't have a genuinity behind their act
• the sigil of the entity they want to work with, does not want to work with them (yes, conjurers can get rejected by an Infernal, it's common)
• they are lazy to put actual effort into their side of the work, for some people have a level of expectations that is simply surreal, deulisonal and even harmful (not for the demons, they don't really care if you, for example, stay broke and fail to pay your bills because you can't get up and do something useful for once, to even make the process fluent)
• they have nothing to offer in return or they never intended to fulfill the 'offering' side of this work, so they got ignored as should; demons are not charity, people love forgetting it all the time, and think Infernals are out there to serve them; well, surprise

Demons know who you are. They know where you're heading, they're aware of your intent and if one is blaming their Sigil method not working as good as what(?) else in an ill manner, it's just blaming the 'unknown' for their own lack of knowledge and practicality. You can, but this is exactly why they fail to produce resuls, or why demons chose to not engage or why they'll find themselves stranded on occult fields, never truly grow.

Do they truly produce results in your practice?

They did, and I have no complain about any of it's quickness or effectiveness, impact, what-so-ever.

But see here, it's not about them (or me). It's about you.

Leave behind your expectations you build up reading stories of experiences, and step forward to the Sigil working, to the Infernals with pure intent and undisturbed mind, not spoiled by expectations, and don't back away from practicing, if you need, instead of blaming it on them and projecting failures of OTHERS on your work. You harm yourself more than anyone else with that mentality.

 

[julio]

The spirit seals introduced in the Ars Goetia are indeed specific to it, although the names certainly aren’t. You’ll find (as you will in any manuscript reproduction) that there are inaccuracies in seals which do affect the outcome of an evocation, though what makes it succeed is not this one factor.

The spirit has to provide you with its own specific seal once evoked. As do every other spirit that’s called.

 

[ZanySpirtist]

They're sigil - they're symbols of Entities. What would even "making them work" mean, indeed? They're tools used to invoke/evoke a particular entity.

So if a tool does not work as intended, you need to change your way of using the tool.

The Goetic sigils and the Dukante sigils represent different entities, I guess that's the main difference.

 

[MorganBlack]

I pay attention to the Demonolatry folks and like them just fine - but they are finally rediscovering the grims now, and appear to be on the cusp of a Second Grimoire Revival.

Magicians can make anything work, but the Dukante Sigils and enns are fabricated by S. Conolly. The only issue I see many running into now is one of quality control. For me I have to ask, whose mythic "sandbox" are you playing in?

From the perspective of Rupert Sheldrake’s Morphic Fields, things that have happened before have a higher probability of happening again, suggesting that the more a ritual, conjuration, or seal is used over centuries, the deeper the 'groove' it wears into reality (or maybe, in my view, it just becomes more part of The Story, the Big Dream).

So if that is true, and I think it is, might as well join a tradition that is centuries - perhaps even millennia-old. The Dukante system is a modern 'story,' but the Grimorium Verum and the Lesser Key maybe tap into established 'fields' that provide - in my experince (and YMMV) - a more solid, objective experience of the Underworld journey we are taking here.

Speaking to Julio's point. I have used the Lesser Key and the Grimorium Verum, and the manifestations are different. On a practical level, the GV manifestations are more solid and much darker, while the Lesser Key is more trippy and psychedelic. I have no real idea why, except I think each grim is a 'story' unto itself that various classes of daimons respond individually to.

The names may be the same, but they are very different in practice. The Astaroth of the Lesser Key is not the Astaroth of the GV. Yes, I am aware of the astrological "explanations' why they "really" are the same. Maybe they "the same" are at some deeper level, but who cares? I leave that to the theologians. The way i see it each grim (or lack of grim, or the Internet as a grim ) each creates story that modulates their manifestations to to a greater or lesser degree.

So there is a lot of fexibility to 'work' more Catholic, as I do, or more Luciferian, as Peter Grey does, or even Christo-Luciferian as the Church of Light and Shadow does (FYI: not a member, not advocating here)

With the pact-based grimoires such as the GV, you take - or as has happened to me - are taken on - an extreme Katabasis Underworld trip.

At that point all all the silly trad kit like knives, fasting (to become more dead, maybe) , the fumigations, and offerings (of flame, song and more) make more sense . As well as seeking intercessonary allies from the Above or the Below for the field trip you're taking seeking Power and maybe getting some Wisdom along the way.

 

[juanitos]

fasting (to become more dead, maybe) , the fumigations

these are also required also when contacting a jinn according to arabic magic

 

[lonkia]

It is truly fascinating that even though they share the exact same names, they can be entirely different entities.

I'm planning to start working with the GV and The Lesser Key of Solomon. However, as many of you know, there are numerous versions of them available, and I'm a bit confused about which one is the most reliable for actual practice.

I've found these two books. Are these the same editions you have worked with?

I pay attention to the Demonolatry folks and like them just fine - but they are finally rediscovering the grims now, and appear to be on the cusp of a Second Grimoire Revival.

Magicians can make anything work, but the Dukante Sigils and enns are fabricated by S. Conolly. The only issue I see many running into now is one of quality control. For me I have to ask, whose mythic "sandbox" are you playing in?

From the perspective of Rupert Sheldrake’s Morphic Fields, things that have happened before have a higher probability of happening again, suggesting that the more a ritual, conjuration, or seal is used over centuries, the deeper the 'groove' it wears into reality (or maybe, in my view, it just becomes more part of The Story, the Big Dream).

So if that is true, and I think it is, might as well join a tradition that is centuries - perhaps even millennia-old. The Dukante system is a modern 'story,' but the Grimorium Verum and the Lesser Key maybe tap into established 'fields' that provide - in my experince (and YMMV) - a more solid, objective experience of the Underworld journey we are taking here.

Speaking to Julio's point. I have used the Lesser Key and the Grimorium Verum, and the manifestations are different. On a practical level, the GV manifestations are more solid and much darker, while the Lesser Key is more trippy and psychedelic. I have no real idea why, except I think each grim is a 'story' unto itself that various classes of daimons respond individually to.

The names may be the same, but they are very different in practice. The Astaroth of the Lesser Key is not the Astaroth of the GV. Yes, I am aware of the astrological "explanations' why they "really" are the same. Maybe they "the same" are at some deeper level, but who cares? I leave that to the theologians. The way i see it each grim (or lack of grim, or the Internet as a grim ) each creates story that modulates their manifestations to to a greater or lesser degree.

So there is a lot of fexibility to 'work' more Catholic, as I do, or more Luciferian, as Peter Grey does, or even Christo-Luciferian as the Church of Light and Shadow does (FYI: not a member, not advocating here)

With the pact-based grimoires such as the GV, you take - or as has happened to me - are taken on - an extreme Katabasis Underworld trip.

At that point all all the silly trad kit like knives, fasting (to become more dead, maybe) , the fumigations, and offerings (of flame, song and more) make more sense . As well as seeking intercessonary allies from the Above or the Below for the field trip you're taking seeking Power and maybe getting some Wisdom along the way.

 

[MorganBlack]

Asking about the GV is like inviting John Carpenter's The Thing in. It takes over everything and turns every conversation into more Thing.

I recommend reading not just GV material but all the grimoire authors. The grims are all windows into an ancient practice with many "folk magic" threads. Everyone is seeing it from their own practice and experiences. Some are more pagan, others more Catholic. I'm more Eldritch-Cath (not by choice, or the end result of intellectualization).

I recommend just taking the grimoires at 80% face value, and just getting moving. Work them without trying to min-max the process completely, nor being so uptight about having every last, uh, thing (ha!) perfect that you never get moving.

While a bit streamlined the , the overall structure is what the GV got right the most. It kept more of the Infernal Hierarchy. We go to the Chiefs - Lucifer, Astaroth, Beelzebub - for permission, and use their names and blessings as authority for when we call the "lower" demons. You can add a 'Celestial' layer here which I do, but some do not. The main thing is keep the names of the Chiefs, get their benediction, and be on their good side.

It could also be that they are lower demon are reflections / echoes of them. We know Nature itself is very hierarchically organized. I think we're looking at what is called Biological Levels of Organization. It is a hierarchical way of viewing the complexity of life, where each level serves as a building block for the next - but here more in reverse sequence, as we go down, down, down to Hell

It's not necessary to see them as literal demons from Hell, but I do recommend treating them as such sometimes, but not all the time. I also think they are not "pagan gods" and, in my view, they come from a time before both Christianity and paganism.

While a

 

[lonkia]

Asking about the GV is like inviting John Carpenter's The Thing in. It takes over everything and turns every conversation into more Thing.

I recommend reading not just GV material but all the grimoire authors. The grims are all windows into an ancient practice with many "folk magic" threads. Everyone is seeing it from their own practice and experiences. Some are more pagan, others more Catholic. I'm more Eldritch-Cath (not by choice, or the end result of intellectualization).

I recommend just taking the grimoires at 80% face value, and just getting moving. Work them without trying to min-max the process completely, nor being so uptight about having every last, uh, thing (ha!) perfect that you never get moving.

While a bit streamlined the , the overall structure is what the GV got right the most. It kept more of the Infernal Hierarchy. We go to the Chiefs - Lucifer, Astaroth, Beelzebub - for permission, and use their names and blessings as authority for when we call the "lower" demons. You can add a 'Celestial' layer here which I do, but some do not. The main thing is keep the names of the Chiefs, get their benediction, and be on their good side.

It could also be that they are lower demon are reflections / echoes of them. We know Nature itself is very hierarchically organized. I think we're looking at what is called Biological Levels of Organization. It is a hierarchical way of viewing the complexity of life, where each level serves as a building block for the next - but here more in reverse sequence, as we go down, down, down to Hell

It's not necessary to see them as literal demons from Hell, but I do recommend treating them as such sometimes, but not all the time. I also think they are not "pagan gods" and, in my view, they come from a time before both Christianity and paganism.

While a

I really appreciate you taking the time to share such a detailed and grounded perspective. Your point about not getting paralyzed by "min-maxing" the process resonated with me deeply; it's easy to get lost in searching for the "perfect" version and forget that the movement itself is what wears that "groove" into reality.

The way you described the Infernal Hierarchy in the GV—the importance of seeking the benediction of the Chiefs before working with the lower entities—makes a lot of sense. It feels much more like navigating a living ecosystem than just following a dry set of instructions.

Also, your view on these entities predating both Christianity and Paganism is fascinating. It definitely shifts the way I look at the "story" we are stepping into. Thank you for clearing the fog and helping me focus on what actually matters in practice.

 

[juanitos]

It is truly fascinating that even though they share the exact same names, they can be entirely different entities.

I'm planning to start working with the GV and The Lesser Key of Solomon. However, as many of you know, there are numerous versions of them available, and I'm a bit confused about which one is the most reliable for actual practice.

I've found these two books. Are these the same editions you have worked with?

I would suggest to get the Lesser keys translated by Peterson.

 

[lonkia]

I would suggest to get the Lesser keys translated by Peterson.

I found that book on the forum and I'll definitely check it out, thanks for the recommendation.

 

[MorganBlack]

I really appreciate you taking the time to share such a detailed and grounded perspective.

You’re most welcome, lonkia!

I will add a but here say grim trad magic live up to the hype but our perspective is all any of us really have. I don’t remember who said it, but I agree somewhat, that Magic is a broken tradition. There are benefits here.

In my view, the seeming incompleteness is an invitation for you to rebuild it by re-engaging with it. All of us, including the grim authors, have part of the whole spooky and wonderful picture, but not all of it. This is a feature, not a bug.

The daimons - while appearing in UFO costumes - just as they appear in my living room as Lovecraftian critters to me (which I take as a wink and an in-joke) - once said something very important. Jacques Vallee reports this in his 1979 book Messengers of Deception. They said to a patrolman Herbert Schirmer during a famous UFO/close encounter event on December 3, 1967, in Ashland, Nebraska, "We want you to believe in us, but not too much."

Too much intellectualized up-front belief is to be avoided. Too much and becomes it becomes a brain-hook, a mind button, that can be preyed upon by the truly vile and evi. See:
Diabolist Witch-Slop City

Goetia is not so much a skill-based practice. Well it is, but it’s mostly a relationship practice, attached to an embodied practice. And the Neo-Wiccan effort to turn all the demons into totally atomized, discrete individuals they can put in a purchasing catalog and make cults for is to be avoided like the plague. By doing these things in the grimoires , if you get their attention, you will have experiences that make all that neo-pagan jibber-jabber pale and pointless next to your own lived experiences.

So do not take anything I say as the final word, nor what anyone else says. In time you will be your own authority. Then, later, after a number of years, be kind to the newcomers as well and don’t lord over them, or prey on them.

 

[juanitos]

yep..it is that kind of experience words can not properly convey..
As it was said: "the finger pointing to the Moon it is Not the Moon..."

 

[lonkia]

You’re most welcome, lonkia!

I will add a but here say grim trad magic live up to the hype but our perspective is all any of us really have. I don’t remember who said it, but I agree somewhat, that Magic is a broken tradition. There are benefits here.

In my view, the seeming incompleteness is an invitation for you to rebuild it by re-engaging with it. All of us, including the grim authors, have part of the whole spooky and wonderful picture, but not all of it. This is a feature, not a bug.

The daimons - while appearing in UFO costumes - just as they appear in my living room as Lovecraftian critters to me (which I take as a wink and an in-joke) - once said something very important. Jacques Vallee reports this in his 1979 book Messengers of Deception. They said to a patrolman Herbert Schirmer during a famous UFO/close encounter event on December 3, 1967, in Ashland, Nebraska, "We want you to believe in us, but not too much."

Too much intellectualized up-front belief is to be avoided. Too much and becomes it becomes a brain-hook, a mind button, that can be preyed upon by the truly vile and evi. See:
Diabolist Witch-Slop City

Goetia is not so much a skill-based practice. Well it is, but it’s mostly a relationship practice, attached to an embodied practice. And the Neo-Wiccan effort to turn all the demons into totally atomized, discrete individuals they can put in a purchasing catalog and make cults for is to be avoided like the plague. By doing these things in the grimoires , if you get their attention, you will have experiences that make all that neo-pagan jibber-jabber pale and pointless next to your own lived experiences.

So do not take anything I say as the final word, nor what anyone else says. In time you will be your own authority. Then, later, after a number of years, be kind to the newcomers as well and don’t lord over them, or prey on them.

Thank you for the encouragement to find my own authority. I’ll make sure to remember your advice about being kind to others when I’m further down the road but I am not sure if I am able to work with them because I have been experiencing sleep paralysis since my childhood, and it was actually what pushed me toward occultism; I’ve always had an interest in the hidden sciences. Ever since I started rejecting them during these sleep paralysis episodes, they have become very aggressive toward me. I even experienced possession once—one of them entered my body, and I managed to cleanse it using the Barhatiya. In fact, they have been hostile toward me ever since that. I used to see them as gods in the past as a satanist. But now I believe in a single, absolute Creator; my experiences are what led me to this realization. I intend to work with them, but they will probably continue to approach me with hostility. That’s why my situation is so complicated, and that's why I stay away from them just in case they keep trying to hurt me.

 

[MorganBlack]

Hmm. Not sure what to advise here. Much of this is finding the right relation to the Other. Part of that starts with yourself. You will find your way.

I have not found the class (tribe?) of daimons that respond to the GV to be particularly hostile. I have some scars from my early practice way back in the 1990s from not keeping my agreements. The details are pretty gruesome, so I will not go into them. But I will say once I started acting with honor, and not being a fuckwit, they were much more accommodating and helpful. Weird, bizarre, sure, but also quite wonderful.

It's a balance. Too much treating them as pagan royalty makes them chatty and lazy. It removes their fangs and their balls as they sit around and suck up the fat of the land. Too much treating them like the trash of the spirit world makes them touchy and aggro.

But early on, take a clue from Vodou and add soime sugar to their offerings. Honey is spring water. This will make them "fat and lazy" as we say, but since here you're just getting to know them and forming a realtionship that's totally fine.

In general, it’s recommended you should find a "higher" level ally first. This can be seen in ecosystem terms rather than a strict cosmic hierarchy. If you are Luciferian, pray to Lucifer for authority and his benediction. Then use his name. If Catholic, to the Virgin or St. Michael for intercession. Or do both. Segmentaion of the entire cosmos by religious speculation is absurd. I do recommend asking for benediction and blessing, no matter your personal theology. Also, no need to get caught up on the word "prayer"... call it "invocation" if you like, but avoid all the modern occult "explanationisms" and their "enlightened intitated teaching" from "traditions" that are only five minutes old.

 

[lonkia]

Hmm. Not sure what to advise here. Much of this is finding the right relation to the Other. Part of that starts with yourself. You will find your way.

I have not found the class (tribe?) of daimons that respond to the GV to be particularly hostile. I have some scars from my early practice way back in the 1990s from not keeping my agreements. The details are pretty gruesome, so I will not go into them. But I will say once I started acting with honor, and not being a fuckwit, they were much more accommodating and helpful. Weird, bizarre, sure, but also quite wonderful.

It's a balance. Too much treating them as pagan royalty makes them chatty and lazy. It removes their fangs and their balls as they sit around and suck up the fat of the land. Too much treating them like the trash of the spirit world makes them touchy and aggro.

But early on, take a clue from Vodou and add soime sugar to their offerings. Honey is spring water. This will make them "fat and lazy" as we say, but since here you're just getting to know them and forming a realtionship that's totally fine.

In general, it’s recommended you should find a "higher" level ally first. This can be seen in ecosystem terms rather than a strict cosmic hierarchy. If you are Luciferian, pray to Lucifer for authority and his benediction. Then use his name. If Catholic, to the Virgin or St. Michael for intercession. Or do both. Segmentaion of the entire cosmos by religious speculation is absurd. I do recommend asking for benediction and blessing, no matter your personal theology. Also, no need to get caught up on the word "prayer"... call it "invocation" if you like, but avoid all the modern occult "explanationisms" and their "enlightened intitated teaching" from "traditions" that are only five minutes old.

I really value your honesty about your own early experiences and the "scars" from the past. It reinforces the idea that this isn't a game, but a practice of honor and integrity.

Your advice to use "sugar, honey and spring water" to keep the initial relationship is a very practical and grounded tip. It feels like a much safer way to re-approach them without triggering the old hostility I’ve experienced.

I also completely agree with finding a "higher" level ally first. Since I now believe in a single Creator, I find strength in seeking divine authority and protection before any work. Whether it’s called prayer or invocation, having that "celestial" backing feels like the necessary foundation for someone with my history.

I’m curious—when you speak of acting with "honor" in this context, is it mostly about keeping the specific terms of an agreement, or is it a broader respect for the office the daemon holds?

 

[MorganBlack]

Hmmm. The main thing is keeping your agreements. Seriously, keep them. And then not just thinking of yourself. Approaching them with sincerity. I THINK, in part, that means not trying to skirt the ritual obligations and protocols while grasping too quickly for the ice cream and bon-bons while you telepathically communicate with them on planet Xenu, and they tell you how special you are. The coin of the spirit realm is paying attention , but not so much you overfeed them, or project too much of your own ego onto them.

 

[lonkia]

Hmmm. The main thing is keeping your agreements. Seriously, keep them. And then not just thinking of yourself. Approaching them with sincerity. I THINK, in part, that means not trying to skirt the ritual obligations and protocols while grasping too quickly for the ice cream and bon-bons while you telepathically communicate with them on planet Xenu, and they tell you how special you are. The coin of the spirit realm is paying attention , but not so much you overfeed them, or project too much of your own ego onto them.

That makes total sense. Treating it like a formal protocol rather than a mental fantasy seems to be the key to keeping things grounded and safe. I especially like what you said about "attention" being the currency—it implies a level of discipline that is often missing in modern discussions. I will focus on keeping my word and respecting the steps without overcomplicating it with my own ego. Thank you for being a steady guide through these questions, I feel much more prepared to approach the GV with the right mindset now.