Grimoire Magicians vs. The Tryhards

[Nerone]

The key word in this use of the imagination is immersion.
Anyone who has immersed themselves in a novel or a poem
has experienced this magical state of consciousness in which
perception is altered and extended by the imagination.

Immersion is facilitated by story. When performing magic, the
magician will be calling upon story of one sort or another, be
it in the form of verses from Holy Scripture, the deeds of
deities in mythology, or the use of their epithets. For this
reason it is important to familiarise ourselves with the myths,
legends, or scripture relevant to the spirits we are engaging
with.

Ha! You know man, I hate and love when these kind of things happens. "Nothing new under the Sun". Here's me thinking I'm being original with my personal insights, only to see someone else coming to a similar conclusion. I was talking about the power of language on a private group with some friends not too long ago. I think it fits really nicely here, so I'll repost some of it:

"I think besides the innate power of the Psalms, one needs to "reasonate" with the Abrahamic tradition and it's mythos on a deeply felt level in order to get the most out of it.

My own stint with Maoshan taught me that – the spells were awesome and all, but on a certain level, there was an element of alienness where the imagery and mythos did nothing for me at all. It did not really move my heart. And I think that element of genuine heartfelt reasonance, where one is able to fully and faithfully immerse oneself in the spell is not only a nice thing, but a core essential.

Something that is little known about the planet Venus is that Vettius Valens from the 2nd century AD considered her to rule priests and the priesthood. When we look at the word "confidence", it has it's roots in two words; con, meaning together, and fidere, or fidelity; faith. It is interesting to note that many partnerships, ruled by Venus, are often broken because of – unfaithfulness!

I have for a long time now thought of "faith" in the same vein as "immersion".
So, if we're watching a movie for example, there is a suspension of disbelief and we immerse ourselves in the narrative, to the point of believing it real, and we can laugh and cry, cheer on and scream and feel genuine emotion. Whereas the opposite quality of "immersion", ruled by Venus' enemy Saturn, is "detachment". Watching a movie with that cold clinical dissecting distance, where one criticizes the acting, scrutinizes the costume and set design, is an entirely different experience.

It's the same difference between a casual listener enjoying music and a professional musician dissecting the notes and rhythm, unable to "get into it".

So I consider faith as something deeply intertwined with confidence and immersion."

 

[MorganBlack]

Nice, Nerone!

Occultism, philosophy, pop culture, and "High Strangeness"intersect in ways we are just now starting to process as magicians and sorcerers.

I don't "do aliens" so I had put off reading Jacques Vallee’s Passport to Magonia: From Folklore to Flying Saucers for years. He does a does a great job covering how 'The Phenomenon' shapes itself to the local culture.

For me, I think it was seeing the Grimorium Verum daimons appearing as Lovecraftian eldritch horrors - not that I was afraid, mind you. But I certainly wasn't going to go the Kenneth Grant route, which I feel takes that literary connection too literally. For one thing, it would entail rewriting the GV frame ritual with 1930s pulp fiction imagery. While not a 100% terrible idea - many have rewritten similar rites with pagan imagery - I just didn't see the point.

It was later, when I was reading Dr. Jeffrey Kripal (Professor of Philosophy and Religious Thought at Rice University), specifically his book Mutants and Mystics: Science Fiction, Superhero Comics, and the Paranormal, that I found a cool link. I think it was there he mentions that 'The Phenomenon' only started appearing as 'bug-eyed grey aliens' after artist Steve Ditko’s big-eyed Spider-Man character appeared. It percolated into the collective mind enough to shape new forms in the "UI/UX layer" we interact with - much like Lovecraft percolated through my own comic book and art director's brain.

You see the same pattern elsewhere. Jack Parsons was obsessed with 1930s pulp fiction and men’s adventure stories, while Gerald Gardner's sexually-frustrated BDSM-brain was steeped in 1880s pastoral 'pagan' romantic poetry.

Jeffrey Kripal approaches all this through what he calls the "Super-Story." (see parallels to the Chaos magic Hypersigil - but without seeing it as all as only psychology as the 20th-century occult formulations did.) He argues that our pop culture (comics, sci-fi, movies) functions as a modern mythology that allows us to process real paranormal experiences that the scientific world refuses to acknowledge. Something Grant felt about Lovecraft. But then went way off the deep end.

This all meshes well with my understanding of Neoplatonism, Patrick Harpur’s work, and Bernardo Kastrup’s Analytic Idealism. While Kastrup's model isn't perfect, it aligns with the idea that the bigger non-local collective mind is primary. The concept that we are collectively 'dreaming' the laws of physics into reality is pretty damn amazing. So if our cultural symbols act as the 'skin' for these entities, it suggests that reality is far more plastic than we’ve been led to believe.

So following the clues in Patrick Harpur’s Daimonic Reality, if we stop viewing these things as literal 'aliens' from Zeta Reticuli and start seeing them as psychoid entities (half-mind, half-matter), we gain more agency. We move from being mythic literalist, hyper-religious nutters (be it Christian or modern pagan religions) or 'victims of abduction' , or 'possessed by egregores', and back to being participants in a cosmic theater. Back to being magicians.

On a practical level, the language of the story matters. Numerous people in the Daemonolatry communities have discovered that internalizing the cosmo-conception of Neoplatonism helps them get much 'cooler,' nicer daimonic manifestations.

In my view, the 'Wiccanate' stories of modern paganism work as an internalized cottage-core, 'whimsy-goth' vibe. They can work the same way for some folks, but fuck me, there are limits! I am not turning Guland - an underworld disease/health daimon - into Pagan Pikachu. He chose his form -by rummaging around in my subconsious - on his own when he appeared very solidly in my room. I did not force it on him. I feel that is important.

So, 'projecting into' the Grimorium Verum, especially with some pagan Marvel Movie aesthetic? Uh, no. Whatever shows up answering in that form you've concocted on the' lower astral' - in some twee demonolgy myths glued together from WitchTok debris- just isn’t right. Welln maybe it is for you. But for me it’s too prescriptive and pre-packaged. The original stories of Catholicism are much closer to the ancient shamanic thread the grim conserve. Along with the darkess and the strange Otherness that I feel are core to Goetia itself.

 

[Van Horne]

But chicken blood, WTF? Nope, nope.

Hahaha, I was referring to some stuff I read and was immediately turned off by.

Reading more posts in this thread I got the impression that there's actually a consensus: You need to find your own way! No doubt that a good read helps building a personal framework.

My first reaction was little sour because lately I'm a little overfed by today's occult book industry. It feels like almost every week there are new or fake old "grimoires" coming out, bringing "secret gnostic" wisdom "from the past" for the "modern witch"! Some of them reading like cookbooks. I think this tendency bears some danger to people, because they are given the impression magic practice is an easy mechanical procedure, ignoring the personal journey. So, believing in easy results can be harmful eventually, especially if you do not really know what you are doing.

I agree on the whole "meditate first" shenanigans. I'm turned off by it as well. Many of this newer guides are following all the same formula, what makes them look so generic even more.

 

[MorganBlack]

My first reaction was little sour because lately I'm a little overfed by today's occult book industry

Man, totally. In the 1980s and 1990s, we had so very little to work with, so we just made do. Now the problem is the opposite, with a deluge of occult and pagan derivative slop.

I think what we’re really looking at is the mass gaming of the entire system by forming a self-reinforcing echo chamber. It has obvious profit and social motives - often well-intentioned but low-information - pushed by signal-boosting each other's crap, clogging up all channels, and drowning out all minority viewpoints. WF is one place they seem to have a hard time getting traction (usually by screaming at you), so I appreciate that.

Not that the stuff I liked is great. I'm also not trying to make a religion, so I can laugh at myself.

One of my fave books is Pacts with the Devil by S. Jason Black's (with Christopher S. Hyatt). It's an absolutely terrible book full of 1990s Boomer edgelord-isms (and some great occult journal entries by Mr. Black) . But it was the kick in the seat of the pants I needed to get started with my cobbled-together Goetia, basically taking all the diabolical grims of the 'Blue Book' period and smushing them all together. It worked, but also left some scars. My fault, though, but I really can't read the conjurations of the Grand Grimoire without getting some PTSD flashbacks.

 

[Angel 7]

A great thread thanks MorganBlack.

Overall I agree. As always don’t know what these things are, but spirits do appear to have external existence, they do seem to adhere to a narrative, the grimoire in this case and to our expectations.

I’m with you, I’ve summoned spirits without any trance. Although if they come they can change your perceptions of the world significantly. Effectively a trance. Something you certainly need to come down from afterwards.

My feeling is it’s a protocol of interaction, certain spirits interact with the landscape of the grimoires, the practices and words. With them we can attempt to connect to them and they in turn can find their way to us. Maps.

I’ve also had unbelievable success with Neville Godard’s being in the wish fulfilled. The imagination certainly seems to be able to change reality. Although it could have other mechanisms. Kardec spoke of the world teaming with spirits, like a physical force. These spirits might respond to us and our imagined desires.

On the other hand. If you are asking a spirit to do something. You first need to contact the correct spirit(or equivalent spirit)..not so easy. There are plenty of entities out there ready to be whatever you want them to be for a quick bite to eat. Then you need to communicate correctly, have a viable request and in turn fulfil the spirits requirements. It’s relationally, yes , but it takes work.

But yes not the type of intense, mental preamble to actually working magic advocated all over the place.

Engaging with spirits is both a shortcut and a gateway to incredible experiences. I’ve not worked the verum. Nor had any positive experiences with demons. But I can say, if you actually try the means of interacting with spirits described in the grimoires they will come, not every time (for me at least). Your world will be changed after.

 

[MorganBlack]

thanks MorganBlack.

You're most welcome, Angel 7!

Agreed. I tend to see the myths and stories as a way to help us find "right relation" to whatever the spirits are. And that will be very personal , to a certain degree, but also part of the "mythstream" we are using to interact with them in this Magician's UI/UX we call ritual.

I'm glad David Rankine came out and said it in his recent book, Claves Spirituum, that we really have no idea what they spirits are. I wish more people would be that honest, and not try to hoover up The Mystery (by whatever name) in an effort to bolster their cults, new religion, or book sales.

Modern authors trying to simplify magic more and more for a mass audience have a tendency to give quick, cheap, simple answers. Beginners want up-front certainty because they have not had enough of their own experiences to have their own understanding. Hell, I was no different when I was a teenager.

I think people need to fumble their way through it. There is a lot of leeway here. The spirits "are" or can be & appear pagan gods, or literal hellspawn demons, or angels, or UFOs, or Fae - and they all can't just be put in my Neo-Platonic mixing bowl. But fuck if I know. As long as they act like their names, stories and myths say they will, do as what we say (or ask), that is all we really need as magicians.

I also think there are many classes of spirits, some sharing names if not kind, depending on location, mythic landscape, story framework, and the specific grimoire. I've mentioned it before, but the pact-based grims like the GV are much more chthonic than the Lesser Key. For me the manifestation are more solid, darker.

But who knows why? I was born a pretty 'Saturnian' gothy kind of kid, so maybe much of that is just what I bring to the table?

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[Van Horne]

Modern authors trying to simplify magic more and more for a mass audience have a tendency to give quick, cheap, simple answers.

Word up! And then there is this little nasty thing called Dunning-Kruger-Effect.

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[Makario]

David Rankine brought up the Shekhinah in his recent book as a lost part of the grimoire tradition. So she can be seen as part of the lost "tech" that got filled in with chi-balls, and twisting youself into a pretzel.

I am pleased as punch that others are also re-introducing - as I think of her - The Goddess / Mary / Sophia back into the grimoire tradition.



Hell, yeah!

I hear her Empress of Hell manifestation would scare away Hekate. Or is it Hekate? Speaking of which, I've never seen them together in the same room.

I am a weird Catholic because of her. I really had no idea. So far, all her manifestations (nee apparitions, in Church-speak) have been nothing but jaw-droppingly sweet and beautiful - or filled with manifestations of the odor of roses and citrus that others around me can also smell. Sigh. It was love at first sight.

Just started to devote myself to Hekate as well and am currently rebuilding my working altar using Liber Khthonia. Excited to connect closer with her,

 

[WordCraft666]

virtue-signaler entered chat to cause division

 

[MorganBlack]

Meh. If there was malicious intent to derail the conversation, that would be another issue.

Hekate as an manifestation and/or embodiment of the World Soul is part of the grimoires going back to the PGM. And in JSK's alternate liturgy for the GV she plays a role as a 'higher octave' of Astaroth. All good.

 

[Angel 7]

You're most welcome, Angel 7!

Agreed. I tend to see the myths and stories as a way to help us find "right relation" to whatever the spirits are. And that will be very personal , to a certain degree, but also part of the "mythstream" we are using to interact with them in this Magician's UI/UX we call ritual.

I'm glad David Rankine came out and said it in his recent book, Claves Spirituum, that we really have no idea what they spirits are. I wish more people would be that honest, and not try to hoover up The Mystery (by whatever name) in an effort to bolster their cults, new religion, or book sales.

Modern authors trying to simplify magic more and more for a mass audience have a tendency to give quick, cheap, simple answers. Beginners want up-front certainty because they have not had enough of their own experiences to have their own understanding. Hell, I was no different when I was a teenager.

I think people need to fumble their way through it. There is a lot of leeway here. The spirits "are" or can be & appear pagan gods, or literal hellspawn demons, or angels, or UFOs, or Fae - and they all can't just be put in my Neo-Platonic mixing bowl. But fuck if I know. As long as they act like their names, stories and myths say they will, do as what we say (or ask), that is all we really need as magicians.

I also think there are many classes of spirits, some sharing names if not kind, depending on location, mythic landscape, story framework, and the specific grimoire. I've mentioned it before, but the pact-based grims like the GV are much more chthonic than the Lesser Key. For me the manifestation are more solid, darker.

But who knows why? I was born a pretty 'Saturnian' gothy kind of kid, so maybe much of that is just what I bring to the table?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Thanks for throwing the Bauhaus's stigmata's. I love it.

Stigmata. And that's a key question how much of this do we embody and conjure into our experience. Our expectations are potent, enough to draw blood.

The UFO phenomena responds to a substrata of expectations about aliens. Perhaps an unconscious set of ideas held within the encountered culture and time. Again I don't know what they are. I think there are many different beings but as Vallée suggests some appear to be what we would historically call spirits, Fae, Angels, Demons.

Before I had any contact I thought it was all Psi, Spirits being unnecessary. Abruptly after a successful operation, I could see this was real. It was a shock. Then slowly I tried to integrate. In a way getting outside of my human centric universe.. where all spirits & magic comes from what we want. From us.

I don't know the Verum. I have a digital copy of Jake's edition but I find it tricky to hold onto. I know the Red Dragon a little, a man in a bookshop in Glastonbury told me he had found it to be very effective. I can see the pact or exchange model is clear.

 

[Firetree]

Thanks for throwing the Bauhaus's stigmata's. I love it.

Stigmata. And that's a key question how much of this do we embody and conjure into our experience. Our expectations are potent, enough to draw blood.

The UFO phenomena responds to a substrata of expectations about aliens. Perhaps an unconscious set of ideas held within the encountered culture and time. Again I don't know what they are. I think there are many different beings but as Vallée suggests some appear to be what we would historically call spirits, Fae, Angels, Demons.

In the 'scientific / space exploration' age , people get abducted by aliens , in the previous 'religious age ' people got 'abducted ' by demons .



Patrick Harpur does comparisons in his book on the subject ( 'Daimonic Reality' ) ; one example ; he outlines the essence of an experience ;
People are out in 'nature' , they start to feel 'strange ' ( you know , hair stands up , 'prickly' sensations) , time loss perhaps , all have the same experience BUT with variations ( the old debunk ; the witnesses accounts are not identical ) , an orb ... someone is in the orb observing us !

Then that description is relayed to sets of other cultures for an analysis ;

The Fairy people ; '' Classic experience of Fae ! ''

Ufologist ; Classic case of 2 nd level UFO contact .

Religionist ; Visit from and angel / demon .

Materialist ; Hallucination / 'just ' imagination . ( 'mass hallucinations' )

Originators of the story ; happy as they were sure it was a visit from an ancestor .

Before I had any contact I thought it was all Psi, Spirits being unnecessary. Abruptly after a successful operation, I could see this was real. It was a shock. Then slowly I tried to integrate. In a way getting outside of my human centric universe.. where all spirits & magic comes from what we want. From us.

I don't know the Verum. I have a digital copy of Jake's edition but I find it tricky to hold onto. I know the Red Dragon a little, a man in a bookshop in Glastonbury told me he had found it to be very effective. I can see the pact or exchange model is clear.

 

[AlfrunGrima]

I’m with you, I’ve summoned spirits without any trance. Although if they come they can change your perceptions of the world significantly. Effectively a trance. Something you certainly need to come down from afterwards.

They can enter us at anyway and they do. But more often people are not so good in recognizing the signs and the actual experience when not being in a trance state. And there are for certain people who need all kinds myths and symbols to just accept that there are spirits present in their life. (personally I like the raw experience without the myth-making much more... just boom, there it is. I take for granted that the landing afterwards can take a little more time or be a little More rough)

Another thoughts about finding the right spirit: spirits do read our field of thoughts, beliefs and emotions, and attache to that. And that can be a spirit that one didn't call in the first place. Sometimes an interesting lesson and a new relationship, other moments it is time to banish a few things/spirits and take control.

 

[HoldAll]

Do aliens read grimoires? Are UFO filled with tryhards? This thread is veering off topic.