Have you become God yet? The point of Theurgy

[slim116]

I am cynical about theurgy.
But you know, the areas i want to ask about maybe too personal to share, but what the hell, ill ask anyway.

So the work of theurgic magic takes years to do. And your still not done. It takes a belief in afterlife and in cosmology that you cannot definitely know is true, until you die and see for yourself if it is, or not.

And surely one who is on wizard forums knows that the universe cant be defined in one cosmology cuz of the numerous books in the library showing countless different cosmologies and opinions on the unseen realm. One view alone is not 100% the objective truth.

So, whats the point of theurgy? What if it is just a misplaced hope of obtaining godhood, and your just doing something for years for not obtaining what your going for?
Is it just a psychological comfort, or defence mechanism to feel better about the unknown?

And okay, say one achieved some level where they're considered divine, is that person self deluded? (Sort of thinking of Steven Segal here, getting that buddhist divinity thing from the Dalai Lama).

What is the definition of godhood in theurgy anyway? Just a really aware person?

I want to access the library,
Thank you.

 

[Firetree]

I am cynical about theurgy.
But you know, the areas i want to ask about maybe too personal to share, but what the hell, ill ask anyway.

So the work of theurgic magic takes years to do. And your still not done. It takes a belief in afterlife and in cosmology that you cannot definitely know is true, until you die and see for yourself if it is, or not.

And surely one who is on wizard forums knows that the universe cant be defined in one cosmology cuz of the numerous books in the library showing countless different cosmologies and opinions on the unseen realm. One view alone is not 100% the objective truth.

So, whats the point of theurgy?

'Henosis ' 'union' ; as in the branches of Magick and Yoga ( ' union ' ) .

What if it is just a misplaced hope of obtaining godhood,

What if your title is wrong and misleading ? In that , the point of theurgy is not to 'become God' . . . or to 'obtain Godhood' .

and your just doing something for years for not obtaining what your going for?
Is it just a psychological comfort, or defence mechanism to feel better about the unknown?

Yes. Also there is an assumption of 'obtaining nothing' . I have 'obtained' a lot from my practice.

And okay, say one achieved some level where they're considered divine, is that person self deluded?

Probably ..... if they think they are only divine ... and not a human with a link to the divine .

(Sort of thinking of Steven Segal here, getting that buddhist divinity thing from the Dalai Lama).

Eh ? Segal is a Deva now ??? !!!


I thought the 'highest' he got so far had been 'recognized' , by someone not the Dali Lama , as some old re incarnated 17th century Buddhist ?

What is the definition of godhood in theurgy anyway? Just a really aware person?

In some ways . Its complex , but there is a distinction ; one one hand a full union with God (if thats possible ) would seem to make one become God , but in this process there would be no more 'you' that would have 'dissolved'.

On the other hand , moving towards that goal one hopes the 'self' gets improved and evolves towards its best aspects * , and these aspects seem the good qualities of humans ( plus whatever paradigm - eg with the Greeks, concepts were different to modern western people ) anyway , so they are sort of 'projected' put as God/s and seen as attainments .

So its more than just being aware .

* for me I see it like this ; we all have our individual boundary of expansion . certain practices help us to reach towards that limit , we might not even know what that limit is . But also there is a limit , and it is futile to try and do things beyond that limit . We do need awareness though ; to know when both of those 'lessons' are happening and to know what to do about it and act on that .

I want to access the library,
Thank you.

 

[slim116]

'Henosis ' 'union' ; as in the branches of Magick and Yoga ( ' union ' ) .



What if your title is wrong and misleading ? In that , the point of theurgy is not to 'become God' . . . or to 'obtain Godhood' .



Yes. Also there is an assumption of 'obtaining nothing' . I have 'obtained' a lot from my practice.




Probably ..... if they think they are only divine ... and not a human with a link to the divine .



Eh ? Segal is a Deva now ??? !!!


I thought the 'highest' he got so far had been 'recognized' , by someone not the Dali Lama , as some old re incarnated 17th century Buddhist ?



In some ways . Its complex , but there is a distinction ; one one hand a full union with God (if thats possible ) would seem to make one become God , but in this process there would be no more 'you' that would have 'dissolved'.

On the other hand , moving towards that goal one hopes the 'self' gets improved and evolves towards its best aspects * , and these aspects seem the good qualities of humans ( plus whatever paradigm - eg with the Greeks, concepts were different to modern western people ) anyway , so they are sort of 'projected' put as God/s and seen as attainments .

So its more than just being aware .

* for me I see it like this ; we all have our individual boundary of expansion . certain practices help us to reach towards that limit , we might not even know what that limit is . But also there is a limit , and it is futile to try and do things beyond that limit . We do need awareness though ; to know when both of those 'lessons' are happening and to know what to do about it and act on that .

So, to sum up the point of theurgy is connection with the divine and to grow to the highest potentials of our good aspects?

To become a good person via magickal means via connection to the Source of all things?

So, is that the point of Golden Dawn?
LTC's Kabbalah Magic?

Btw do you practise theurgy? What branch/tradition?



*side note: The Steven Segal thing I saw it on a youtube doco. The doco was pretty anti Segal so they added their flare on top saying it meant "he paid to become divine to the Dalai Lama". I looked it up now and what you said is accurate. I was misinformed.

 

[Morell]

Interesting topic and good question. Though you can ask that one on anything magic related.

Though the question "What if...?" can be dangerous, because it makes you stop and wonder about possibilities. And since possibilities are endless in both good and bad ways, you might end stranding on one place for entire life. Now that is time wasted well.

As LHP practitioner I do aim for immortality and kind of divinity. Do I waste my time? Maybe. However going for it and making mistakes is offering me chances to learn and grow. So even if the ultimate goal might never be reached, I still will be able to know that I did my best and I learned something in the process...

Problem with Theurgy itself is that there are multiple definitions. Take a look at Wiki for them. It can be working with the gods in attempt to self improve, it can be attempt to merge with certain god, it can be developing your own divinity... maybe even more possible paths?

 

[Lord Talve]

You can't become a God this is imposible you only want is a illusion and forget the mension god is different from all entities

 

[Konsciencia]

To be quite honest, you are God already. It is not that you become It. It is that you are already It.

 

[Morell]

To be quite honest, you are God already. It is not that you become It. It is that you are already It.

Ahhh... no thanks. Especially if you mean the one god. Sounds kind of boring, honestly.

 

[Keldan]

Before I respond to a lot of these questions, I want to be upfront. Some people would read this as boasting (others would call this knowing a godlike feature), which is exactly why I hesitated to comment. I’m still choosing to share my perspective because I want to encourage anyone working with theurgy. You can use magick as a tool for real self transformation. It sucks to believe you’re stuck the way you are, but change is possible with a lot of practice.

When it comes to belief in the afterlife, you don’t have to physically die to have any understanding of what comes after. I interact with deceased humans, and I learned through those experiences and their accounts. This topic is deeply personal and shaped by culture, religion, and individual belief. It’s not something I want to debate, because I respect everyone’s beliefs.

As for opinions about the unseen world, it’s important to distinguish between practitioners speaking from direct, lived experience and those repeating what they’ve read from any books. Reading alone isn’t the same as actual contact. If you don’t have much experience yet, take notes from people who do have lived experience and compare them to your own results later. Once you’re doing the work yourself, you’ll be able to see the notes will be the same of the unseen world.

Theurgy isn’t about getting stuff, it’s about changing the practitioner. Workings that aim at inner transformation. That doesn’t mean devotion to any God. Some people understand theurgy as self deification, or becoming more godlike. Others see it as aligning with the highest principle they recognize, or becoming closer to the divine.

For example, if someone has a short temper, they can change that pattern rather than accepting it as fixed. If someone is pessimistic, they can identify the root of it and transform that. This is the kind of change I’m talking about. It’s not a temporary mood shift, but using magick to transform you, and reshaping of how you live.

 

[Firetree]

So, to sum up the point of theurgy is connection with the divine and to grow to the highest potentials of our good aspects?

To become a good person via magickal means via connection to the Source of all things?

I would say ' via connection to the things you want to be good at ' if there are Venusian qualities- invoke Venus , Martian - invoke Mars .

So, is that the point of Golden Dawn?
LTC's Kabbalah Magic?

No, I would say it might be some of their methods , not 'their point', which I take to mean 'their aim' ... which would be 'achieving the great work ' . However someone might decide 'achieving union' is their current Great Work ?

Btw do you practise theurgy? What branch/tradition?

I have and still do . Early on it was Thelemic then got adapted and as time went on I got more involved in and blended with indigenous traditions .

If you want a general intro to the classical idea, I found this good ( and a good intro into the beginnings of 'all things magical' ) ;

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

*side note: The Steven Segal thing I saw it on a youtube doco. The doco was pretty anti Segal so they added their flare on top saying it meant "he paid to become divine to the Dalai Lama". I looked it up now and what you said is accurate. I was misinformed.

Yes, but it does expose something - shame on him anyway ... and the D.L. (or his organisations ) as they do not seem averse to handing out 'blessings' or acknowledgements for 'donations' .

 

[frater_pan]

I am cynical about theurgy.

....

So, whats the point of theurgy?

From the LHP side the point is to attain godhood. This can be defined differently but the main points are to attain supernatural power and are capable of changing the physical world to some extent (usually) and to transcend the death of personality.

From the RHP side the point can be to attain a form of Magushood were one can act as a co-creator with G-d acting with wisdom and humility essentially as a servant of G-d. Or it can be defined simply as unification with the imputed Godhead in some form.

 

[stratamaster78]

Ahhh... no thanks. Especially if you mean the one god. Sounds kind of boring, honestly.

I agree it’s boring and also (I think) the purpose of us living out these individual lives.

But saying it’s ‘God’ for me is a bit of a misnomer.

That’s just a name humans have come up with and even a collective Egregore we have created that people worship.

I think of it as just a singular consciousness. Source Consciousness that exists outside of 3D time and space.

It’s like it’s a massive beyond mental understanding Ocean and every one of us that’s a living thing is a physical avatar for it to exist in as a singular Drop in that ocean that has its own unique Ego Identity.

A Cosmic Ocean I suppose and we are billions and trillions of fractals of it.

That existence outside of time and space is so boring it created a game of make believe for itself so it can have experiences. Individual experiences to have and observe and either reintegrate the lessons learned or continue to have more experiences with more learned lessons and observations.

It’s got to be boring too by now though. Billions and Billions of lives have been lived.

How have we not experienced everything yet?

I guess our Re-Run episodic adventures are still more entertaining than being alone with our real self.

 

[AbammonTheGreat]

So, to sum up the point of theurgy is connection with the divine and to grow to the highest potentials of our good aspects?

To become a good person via magickal means via connection to the Source of all things?

So, is that the point of Golden Dawn?
LTC's Kabbalah Magic?

Btw do you practise theurgy? What branch/tradition?



*side note: The Steven Segal thing I saw it on a youtube doco. The doco was pretty anti Segal so they added their flare on top saying it meant "he paid to become divine to the Dalai Lama". I looked it up now and what you said is accurate. I was misinformed.

Its not "being a good person" although virtue is tied into the process. Its becoming as the god, for example to perform theurgy with Saturn one would have to assume internally his most simple principles. Silence, decay, death. You have to become Saturn to receive him. This is the foundational law of magic like with like or correspondence. If you can make your soul as Saturn, and your environment as Saturn, you can then become as Saturn.

The technical process itself is very similar to tantra and kabbalah. The theurgist is constructing a numinous vehicle through meditation and devotion that can then be lifted up to the god. So the soul leaves the body and becomes as the god. This is done while alive. Its a very real experience, similar to descriptions of the ascent and descent that happens with mystics.

The virtuous part of it is cultivating the virtue that aligns with the deity you are doing theurgy with. A diety will not assume a body and a soul can not unite with the deity if it is carrying qualities that counter-react to the deity. The neoplatonists understand the gods as simple in their unity. So the complexity of human behavior and psychology is divorced from diety, it is a multiplicity. The theurgist must collapse their inner division into unity in order to achieve union, and this is done through virtues that are considered first principles or simple forms.

We also have to understand that "virtue" in this context is not Christian Virtue (be humbly, be charitable, be poor) etc etc. Virtue in a classical context is an eternal form that is a type of unity that things can participate in. Such as beauty, harmony, good, or depending on the context chaos and death. If the virtue is useful and eternal when approached intelligibly then it is of the gods. And your alignment to it brings you closer to the diety. So if someone was doing Theurgy with Typhon/Set they would need to approach Chaos and Destruction as a virtue, its role in the cycle of change.

 

[Kepler]

"There is no part of me that is not of the gods." means something very different in an emergent consciousness hylozoic immanent model vs foundational consciousness panpsychic transcendent model regarding immortality and afterlife.

In the first there's a recognition of high order interactions with discrete forms that bring about incarnation from their memory. Recognizing these develops an immortal grace from communion with them by aligning truthfully with the physical universe to continue flourishing life. The development of greater consciousness as momentum builds from rapport taken as an indicator of success.

 

[Lucien6493]

So you are here, waiting for the train and no-one knows if it's coming at all. Are you just going to sit there at the depot until pigeons nest in your hair and your shoes sprout roots? Are you going to go into town and drink yourself silly or start a family and die of old age; become a member of congress maybe, or rob a bank? Or maybe just maybe you hitch your damn U-Haul to the Morning Star because it is by far and long and wide the best game in town. You will go far and die trying and you will fail but at the end of the day you will look back on your life in wonder because you actually did something with it worth doing.


Spoiler alert : you will have one hell of a trip. You will burn out, and by and by you might come to realize that the questions you have now don't mean much, because it's the trying that matters; the doing of the thing. It's the feckin adventure of being fully alive. That is the only enlightenment you are likely to get regardless of how you understand it, cause here you are, in the only reality you know, and the train ain't coming and there are no guarantees and, your arse don't come with a warranty. So get going. Leave theory to those who toss inkwells at tower walls. They will have their reward. Shoot for the highest that you can conceive of. What do you have to lose? Theurgy, demonolatry, whatever. It is called showing up for your life.

 

[Ohana]

Maybe I am a fool but I don't get chasing divinity. If any of the stories are accurate to who they are I don't want to participate. Eternity with entities I don't know what they will do with eternity. Are they the type to leave metaphorical messes all over the place that I have to clean up after? Eugh

I would stay in the material plane within the reincarnation framework and maybe try to develop space travel to leave. Then just wait it out till the end of the universe. But that's just me.