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how to show physical proof of metaphysical concepts?

Vlitmer

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there is a small shop in my hometown I visit sometimes that is run by a man that is well versed in esoteric and metaphysical topics such as the ones discussed on this website sometimes. and me and him were talking about ESP and the discussion came to be about how it seems extremely difficult if not impossible to give scientific physical proof to the concepts that exist in metaphysics i.e. ESP, remote viewing, astral projection etc.

I know of the CIA involvement in studying remote viewing in the 80s with the public release of the MK ultra documents. and of course, the nazi's and Hitler were extremely invested in metaphysics to help win the war. but finding actually scientific proof for these topics doesn't seem possible to me. I know that these concepts exist but to prove it is something I can't grasp.

so, I ask you. if you had to write a report to scientifically prove something like ESP or remote viewing, how would you do it?
 

Robert Ramsay

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There are already a mountain of rigorous scientific papers showing that remote viewing (for example) can occur with a success rate far above chance.

The problem is twofold:
1) Not every experiment shows this (although a large percentage do)
2) There is currently no theory to explain why it works (and sometimes doesn't)

Neither of these would be a problem for "normal" psychology papers (which have a reproducibility problem the same as parapsychology papers do), but here we are.

From the perspective of my own research, I would require large numbers of senders and receivers to be at work simultaneously, and make sure that all the results are recorded before anyone other than the sender/receiver know what they are. Anyone involved in the experiment can interfere with it; failure is exacerbated by other people. This is why Levi says "To know, to will, to dare, and to keep silent"
 

Vlitmer

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There are already a mountain of rigorous scientific papers showing that remote viewing (for example) can occur with a success rate far above chance.

The problem is twofold:
1) Not every experiment shows this (although a large percentage do)
2) There is currently no theory to explain why it works (and sometimes doesn't)

Neither of these would be a problem for "normal" psychology papers (which have a reproducibility problem the same as parapsychology papers do), but here we are.

From the perspective of my own research, I would require large numbers of senders and receivers to be at work simultaneously, and make sure that all the results are recorded before anyone other than the sender/receiver know what they are. Anyone involved in the experiment can interfere with it; failure is exacerbated by other people. This is why Levi says "To know, to will, to dare, and to keep silent"
from what I understand the reason it works (and sometimes doesn't) is because there is an innate "energy field" running through our physical reality, or rather that our physical reality exists in, that our consciousness and unconscious originates from, and can tap into. some people are born predisposed to have a better connection with this "energy" while other can exercise their connection through meditation, proper mindfulness, and intention i.e. spiritual practices and energy work.

when someone is able to remote view, they are connecting a part of their mind to this "energy field" that exists in and around everything and are able to view from the point they connect to.

but again, this is just my general understanding as someone still young to these practices. all this being just as hard to prove scientifically as the actually remote viewing itself.
 

Robert Ramsay

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from what I understand the reason it works (and sometimes doesn't) is because there is an innate "energy field" running through our physical reality, or rather that our physical reality exists in, that our consciousness and unconscious originates from, and can tap into. some people are born predisposed to have a better connection with this "energy" while other can exercise their connection through meditation, proper mindfulness, and intention i.e. spiritual practices and energy work.

when someone is able to remote view, they are connecting a part of their mind to this "energy field" that exists in and around everything and are able to view from the point they connect to.

but again, this is just my general understanding as someone still young to these practices. all this being just as hard to prove scientifically as the actually remote viewing itself.
Welp, having researched it for thirty-plus years, I've come to different conclusions.

Imagine the sender and the receiver as two spreading sets of outcomes. In some of those outcomes, the sender will be thinking of a cat, the receiver, a dog, or vice-versa, or any combination.

A successful result is where both sender and receiver are thinking the same thing.

The point is, that each of the different outcomes is a different timeline. The magic occurs because both are trying to end up in the same timeline with the same thought. It's the same mechanism that ensures that we (mostly) agree on things in the world, like tables and chairs, except that the thing we are agreeing on is purely in our heads.

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Robert is 100% correct. There are 200+ papers that the International Remote Viewing Association has linked on their website.

Dr. Dean Radin also has a few books exploring scientific methods of confirming psi abilities.

The ultimate problem is we don't have things to measure the how. Before the microscope was invented, science had what we see now as crazy theories about how things like fermentation or meat rotting worked. The theories were reasonable to them because they had no way to observe the means by which the process happened. Until we have that, and until scientists are writing grants to remote viewing foundations that use ARV to game the stock and crypto markets, psi and the paranormal will get passed over.
 

Robert Ramsay

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I think it's for the better if they don't have scientific knowledge of the paranormal. Even with normal people are being manipulated more than enough.
Luckily, the nature of it is so easily disrupted that it is almost useless as a weapon.
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until scientists are writing grants to remote viewing foundations that use ARV to game the stock and crypto markets, psi and the paranormal will get passed over.
The people using magic to expand their wealth will be concentrating on the results of the money, not the money itself. Not sure how you'd use remote viewing on crypto anyway....
 
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LunaSerafina

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I believe the nature of reality is upon this relative story for the one witnessing it. That mechanically these things don't operate or become apparent until you are prepared to be aware of their measurement. That you will not be in realities in which that information is propagating if you don't have reasonable continuity for how that relates to the story that is directly relational to yourself.

These truths are gonna be measured at the self evident level. You know if they work through the discipline of the practice of their functions and you see the effect over the attrition of that practice. One doesn't go from 0 to 100, and it's like achieving a relative rhythm to even perceive those realities.

What it boils down to, you should use metaphysics to adjust the aspects in which you approach situations when it comes to practicality. I use metaphysics to reprogram my perception and work my Ego into different shapes. The measurement is again mostly at the self evident level but it comes more apparent when you're wading through reality with less resistance.

I also believe that you don't know in this "classical information" in which can be purely reduced to words. Someone in the stream especially using psychic abilities it's outside actual comprehensions of expression and any attempt won't have the totality of information that is actually there to the one experiencing itself. That knowing is Quantum and trying to measure even how functions work, you are emerging patterns out of you based upon something that can't actually be expressed.

In my models we are are in a collective projection and the states it can resolve in are ones where the entropy of itself paradoxes it's experience. In other words you can't propagate underwires of reality (think Quantum Immortality theory but with probable viewable realities) and their descriptions where its proven true unless there is framework there that would prevent it's collapse in reason which that collective resonates with in at least what they forfeit to the superposition of itself.

My reply here was pretty dense and I'm not always the best with grammar structure but I tried to relay my points I hope some of you can see what I'm saying. Thank you.
 

DairyFarmScreech

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It is generally understood within the scientific community and the philosophy of science that physical proof of metaphysical concepts is not possible through the methods of empirical science. The core distinction between the two fields lies in their methodology: science relies on empirical, observable, and measurable evidence to test falsifiable hypotheses, while metaphysics deals with questions about the fundamental nature of reality that are not subject to such testing.
Here is a breakdown of why this is the case:
  • Metaphysics vs. Science: Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy concerned with abstract, a priori questions about existence, being, identity, time, and the underlying structure of reality (e.g., "Why is there something rather than nothing?"). Science (physics, chemistry, biology, etc.) addresses a posteriori questions, which are resolved through observation and experience.
  • Empirical Testability: The scientific method requires hypotheses to be testable and falsifiable through experiments and observation. Metaphysical claims, by definition, often explore domains "beyond physics" or the natural world as currently understood, making them inherently difficult or impossible to test empirically.
  • The Role of Assumptions: Science itself operates on underlying metaphysical assumptions, such as the intelligibility of the universe or the reality of the external world, which are taken for granted as axioms rather than proven scientifically.
  • Interpretation, Not Proof: Some modern scientific discoveries, particularly in quantum mechanics, have prompted philosophers and scientists to revisit long-standing metaphysical questions about reality and perception (e.g., the role of an observer in an observed reality). However, this is seen as using scientific findings to inform metaphysical interpretations, not to provide proof in a scientific sense. The evidence can support a specific interpretation, but it does not "prove" the underlying metaphysical claim in a universally agreed-upon, objective way.
In short, a "physical proof" (empirical evidence) of a "metaphysical concept" (something beyond the physical or empirical realm) would be a contradiction in terms. The two fields use different methods and standards of evidence.
 

LunaSerafina

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I just noticed I didn't actually answer the question to the post. There is no way you can prove it to the student that doesn't decide to try it's movements. It's not to say you cannot hand someone formula to reproduce phenomena but they are gonna have to want to do the practice that would lead to the conditioning to execute psychic phenomena themselves. That themselves are the resistance which may require total deconstruction of worldviews to even allow such a thing.

It's self evident always first before you can agree on it's reality. I think the most important thing is that you realize when it operates all the ways I have mentioned, that you don't exactly question what is true or not. You just take on perceptions how things could be in good faith and try new ideas. You tell the person in the material that the information can't be used if you're looking for measured truth. Instead it's more like a framework of routine that will lead the individual into the phenomena. It begins reading like self help / guides / spirituality / religion material at this point.

I do create this material, or have in the past, which I still have stuff. It's all about helping people posture things differently when they come into situations. To deconstruct rigidness and then give the conditioning to hit the place we wanna go. It's way more on par with teaching someone to dance than to give someone math to prove it.
 

HoldAll

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It is generally understood within the scientific community and the philosophy of science that physical proof of metaphysical concepts is not possible through the methods of empirical science. The core distinction between the two fields lies in their methodology: science relies on empirical, observable, and measurable evidence to test falsifiable hypotheses, while metaphysics deals with questions about the fundamental nature of reality that are not subject to such testing.
Here is a breakdown of why this is the case:
You know, your own opinion would be more valuable than AI-generated slop.
 

Agent One

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how to show physical proof of metaphysical concepts?

You can't do that. It's impossible to proof metaphysics with physics. Let say someone record evidence of magic: It could be easily dismissed as video edition, AI generation, staged, or overall they won't accept that is magic. Similarly, if you show an physical artifact from some metaphysical origin, it would be dismissed, or at very least, it would be taken under the lenses of what materialist institutions are already predisposed to accept (even before they even encounter things as such). That's because people filter events in their reality according to the perspective they adopt, because they can all witness the same event, but conclude something entirely different from each other, thus, reality is dependent upon your perspective. However, you can explain metaphysical facts, as well as practical models, and with practice, they sense the connection that the mind have with their own world, and witness events happens by their intentions, one thing leading to another. However, they have to "take the step forward", thinking about it only recycle thoughts about their present state, and won't "see" how such things would even be possible, even less actionable for one's own.

Science is not about proving anything anyway. The sciences are only concerned about cataloguing frequent phenomenons we tend to observe in the world, not about discovering or proving anything or providing solutions. However, if you do look for proof for anything, you will find all the living proof you want, but "finding proof" it's an experience,
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is underlying psychic and spiritual phenomenons it's where its at.

TLDR; No. But you could explain why those things could happen, as well as self validate for yourself and even develop said abilities if you're inclined to pursue it.
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, proof is not needed to experience these things.
 

Sedim Haba

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there is a small shop in my hometown I visit sometimes that is run by a man that is well versed in esoteric and metaphysical topics such as the ones discussed on this website sometimes. and me and him were talking about ESP and the discussion came to be about how it seems extremely difficult if not impossible to give scientific physical proof to the concepts that exist in metaphysics i.e. ESP, remote viewing, astral projection etc.

I know of the CIA involvement in studying remote viewing in the 80s with the public release of the MK ultra documents. and of course, the nazi's and Hitler were extremely invested in metaphysics to help win the war. but finding actually scientific proof for these topics doesn't seem possible to me. I know that these concepts exist but to prove it is something I can't grasp.

so, I ask you. if you had to write a report to scientifically prove something like ESP or remote viewing, how would you do it?
I know I'm late to the party, but, I will give my story. Well, I have more than one, a poltergeist was my first personal physical proof. Too bad no video.

After trying various scrying techniques, I focused in on Automatic Writing. With my Familiar, still do this sometimes when need to remember by having a record.

She has her own physical Journal. I've watched her write in it many times. She takes up a lot of room, just a few words per page. Spiral notebooks.

One time, I wish I had videotaped it. She had an entire page of text to give me. I've seen her write right-to-left, upside-down, you name it.

This time was different. At first, I didn't know what to make of it, just little lines all over the page. Vertical, horizontal, circular. All over, no pattern.

But, then a pattern began to form. Letter here, letter there, a word here, a word there. The page slowly filled. Not one word at a time, just

segments of letters connecting. At speed, I can't write at. Until it was done. A complete paragraph. She's never done the same since. Here's the thing:

For the life of me, I don't know who was holding the pen. I didn't even look at the pen, I just sat dumbfounded looking at the words form.

I still have the paragraph. Without record of it being formed it's just, oh so what? A Paragraph on paper. About personal matters, so no I don't

want to share, but it by itself proves nothing. Just like the door that the Poltergeist opened repeatedly. Not evidence, except to me.
 

WordCraft666

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What made me believe?

One thanksgiving I went to lie in bed and saw a shadow woman walk towards and through my window -just after she flipped her hair back with her hands.

That X-Mas mom and dad were over and I non-schlantly brought up ghosts.

My dad said he saw a woman in the living room (where he was sleeping) and she walked through the wall.

Right then I sh*t myself (not literally).
 

Durward

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so, I ask you. if you had to write a report to scientifically prove something like ESP or remote viewing, how would you do it?
First thing in my report would be the human component. Not much of these types of phenomena happen without a human being as part of the process. We are the instrument, we are the tool, and often we have to describe subjective impressions to the satisfaction of a skeptical scientist.

The next part of my report would be to puncture the nonsense like the usual Amazing Randi argument (the million dollar prize to prove you can do anything), which has been done by others, and can simply be quoted. That whole process was a major fraud, and very damaging to actual science and study.

I would follow up these statements with the fuzzy hit and miss nature of ESP or Psi phenomena, and how the government had plenty of successful results during the many years of extensive and expensive experimentation, but bailed on it because they couldn't control it (make anything happen on demand, the way they wanted it to), and they couldn't weaponize it. They still consider anyone who can remote view with accuracy to be a National Security risk, as do many other countries. There are watch lists for this. The sheer number of positive results in remote viewing is enough to show it works, sporadically, and with some accuracy. The program also didn't end, but is now a multi-billion dollar contract with DARPA, where they are taking mind control to an electronic level, to include telepathy.

Then I would go into why ESP or Psi phenomena is naturally a hit and miss system, or fuzzy, with what we now know based on brain scans and other testing.

The example I love to use, is that many of the previous experiments would take a bunch of volunteer college students with zero skills, and test them for Psi, and end up with the results that are obvious, Psi doesn't exist because none of the volunteer students have any skill. Pretty dumb. In my example, none of the healthy people we scanned for diabetes had diabetes, therefore it doesn't exist, which is also just as stupid.

What we have are a decent number of people who experience Psi phenomena, but can't make it happen or control it. It just happens randomly and some find that disturbing and want it to stop, where others want to try to control it better. Some phenomena are also obviously hallucinations or delusions, so all subjective experiences without any evidence or any clear way to prove them become suspect. Everyone studying these subjects has to accept this and should stop just giving every experience a green light or say that the experience was real and actually happened. Many of these delusional experiences have ruined the funding for research, and clog up the actual study.

We have a small number of people who can control Psi phenomena, and make it happen. These people have methods or triggers for these events. Some of those methods involve altered states, whether the person experiencing it realizes that or not. An example is a Medium supplying correct information about a deceased person, while hooked up to a brain scan. Both those successful at dowsing and mediums share a strange dip in consciousness, almost like they fall asleep for a moment and come back with information. We see plenty of healers that are creating electromagnetic chirp signals at the target of the healing. We have studied lucid dreaming, OOBE's, NDE's, astral projection, and more using modern equipment, with some really interesting results. We can now cause an OOBE with an electrode to the side of the brain. We can watch telepathy happening as people in different rooms, hooked up to EEG's, start to synchronize brain waves, and the receiver is drawing recognizable shapes corresponding to what the sending person is looking at. Most of the time, we see right brain anomalies happening during these events, or drops in activity, like the person receiving has suspended activity in parts of the brain, not increasing it, or using some higher energy. So once again, slowing down, trance states, altered states. This often has zero to do with your waking conscious brain. We now see that the frontal lobes are acting as a filter or blocking system, and that by temporarily shutting them down, people can do psychokinesis.

These are facts, and there are a ton more of them out there, being squashed and silenced by a hateful and oppressive science cult that doesn't allow for it to exist. The Randi cult.

I would go on to explain the savant syndrome phenomena, where less brain equals interesting talents and skills. I would bring up the cases where accidents or brain anomalies have created super talented Psi people like Sean Harribance. I would bring up the talents of people like Edgar Cayce, who evaluated people from a distance, over and over, with people writing down what he said in trance.

I would bring up all the help supplied by people to help solve crimes for the police, FBI, and the US Government. Even President Carter smiled and admitted that the CIA used a psychic to locate a 'special' plane, that satellites failed to find, and that it was successful. There are also tons of these examples, while many of these same agencies refuse to accept that the facts they have gotten to solve these crimes are actually ESP in action.

So, the more we know about the phenomena, the more we can study the actual phenomena and stop just gawking at the results and acting like it must be some kind of trick.

The bottom line is that these are very special and talented human beings, and sometimes they are one-of-a-kind. Just because we can't repeat what they do, doesn't make it fiction. We can't replicate Einstein's brain either, but he did exist.

I would end it with the findings showing that events like these are increased after solar storms, when ungrounded electrical systems are in play, when we are exposed to very weak electromagnetic fields, when we are sensitive to these events, when our body chemistry is supporting the known required chemical states, and that we are finding possible genetic links to explain why some people are special and talented.

But, we have done this over and over, in a ton of books, seminars, and using other formats, and you still get scoffing belligerent assholes in charge that block funding and find excuses for burying any of the studies and results.
Then, you end up with a bunch of woo woo charlatans abusing the whole sector with fake seminars and fake books, charging small fortunes for feel good moments that have nothing to do with actual skills or training.

And, here we are, still stuck in the puritan nonsense era of blind science demanding that Psi and ESP dance to special requirements, instead of accepting it for what it is, and accepting that the human being is the instrument for measure as well as the tool, or the instrument. We can't magically make someone diabetic just for science to be satisfied, but we can supply science with the diabetic to study. At that point, they have to be content that it is a special situation, and can't be repeated on demand, or controlled by science, and the outcome isn't something you can set in stone or prepare for. It is never going to be perfect, and rarely always accurate, and even harder to produce on demand.
 

Agent One

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You can't do that. It's impossible to proof metaphysics with physics. Let say someone record evidence of magic: It could be easily dismissed as video edition, AI generation, staged, or overall they won't accept that is magic. Similarly, if you show an physical artifact from some metaphysical origin, it would be dismissed, or at very least, it would be taken under the lenses of what materialist institutions are already predisposed to accept (even before they even encounter things as such). That's because people filter events in their reality according to the perspective they adopt, because they can all witness the same event, but conclude something entirely different from each other, thus, reality is dependent upon your perspective. However, you can explain metaphysical facts, as well as practical models, and with practice, they sense the connection that the mind have with their own world, and witness events happens by their intentions, one thing leading to another. However, they have to "take the step forward", thinking about it only recycle thoughts about their present state, and won't "see" how such things would even be possible, even less actionable for one's own.

Science is not about proving anything anyway. The sciences are only concerned about cataloguing frequent phenomenons we tend to observe in the world, not about discovering or proving anything or providing solutions. However, if you do look for proof for anything, you will find all the living proof you want, but "finding proof" it's an experience,
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is underlying psychic and spiritual phenomenons it's where its at.

TLDR; No. But you could explain why those things could happen, as well as self validate for yourself and even develop said abilities if you're inclined to pursue it.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, proof is not needed to experience these things.
To expand on this, in order to show this to someone, it would be a matter of expanding their own perspective and pushing them to try it out for themselves, to "ease them in" for a lack of a better word, so they realize the metaphysical truth, they "sense it" and enter in another frame. That's because reality is internal, not external; we see what we want to see. That also include other people too, hmm... Way too dense of a subject, and it leads out of the topic, but you get the idea.
 
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