How to summon a planetary cacodemon and a Goetic daemon in the same ritual?

[joaogualbertosjr]

Does anyone know how to summon a planetary cacodemon and a Goetic daemon in the same ritual, or know of any literature that addresses this subject? I've heard that some magicians do this.

 

[MorganBlack]

Goetia is a specific method of practice, with various folk magic 'schools' - not a generic classification for spirits. Mapping the spirits of the grimoires to planetary or astrological patterns is largely speculative at this stage.

My own operative manual, the Grimorium Verum, does not rely on complex astrology, and it limits its celestial timing to the phases of the waxing Moon, and the specific timing of Mercury, Jupiter, Mars, for the consecration of tools. When dealing with sublunar spirits the phase of the moon is important.

I guess you could tie the planetary Cacodemon of Saturn (from Agrippa's magic square, right?) to the hierarchy of the Grand Grimoire, which is not part of the GV, but as cousin grim is often looked to for comparison. Historically, the Secundi - like Cassiel - and the Spirits - like Zazel - operate on a celestial/spherical axis, whereas Guland (whose day is Saturday in the GG) is part of an infernal hierarchy y reporting to the superior spirits: Duke Syrach, then to Lucifer/Beelzebuth/Astaroth.

In your practice, would you be treating the planetary forces as 'officers' within that infernal court, or are you viewing them as two separate layers of the same Saturday / Saturn influence?

 

[joaogualbertosjr]

The systems are different, however, they are from worlds one below the other, so one would use the cacodaemon to force the daemon of the Goetia to appear and obey you, because the one above controls and commands. The grimoire verum is from the world below the world where the world of the daemons of the Goetia is located. There are 4 sublunar worlds, 40 sefirot, that is, 4 different classes of demons, hence the variety of demons in the different grimoires.

Goetia is a specific method of practice, with various folk magic 'schools' - not a generic classification for spirits. Mapping the spirits of the grimoires to planetary or astrological patterns is largely speculative at this stage.

My own operative manual, the Grimorium Verum, does not rely on complex astrology, and it limits its celestial timing to the phases of the waxing Moon, and the specific timing of Mercury, Jupiter, Mars, for the consecration of tools. When dealing with sublunar spirits the phase of the moon is important.

I guess you could tie the planetary Cacodemon of Saturn (from Agrippa's magic square, right?) to the hierarchy of the Grand Grimoire, which is not part of the GV, but as cousin grim is often looked to for comparison. Historically, the Secundi - like Cassiel - and the Spirits - like Zazel - operate on a celestial/spherical axis, whereas Guland (whose day is Saturday in the GG) is part of an infernal hierarchy y reporting to the superior spirits: Duke Syrach, then to Lucifer/Beelzebuth/Astaroth.

In your practice, would you be treating the planetary forces as 'officers' within that infernal court, or are you viewing them as two separate layers of the same Saturday / Saturn influence?

The systems are different, but they are from worlds one below the other, so one would use the cacodaemon to force the daemon of the Goetia to appear and obey, since the one above controls and commands. The grimoire verum is from the world below the world where the daemons of the Goetia are located. There are 4 sublunar worlds, 40 sefirot, that is, 4 different classes of demons, hence the variety of demons in the different grimoires.

 

[MorganBlack]

If that is your world-vision, and you want to mix mix Kabbalah and Goetia , while not my thing, I say run with it and try it out. I will never argue against boots-on-the-ground ritual workings. Rock on!

There is an argument to be made Goetia, as the entire practice, comes from a more Sublunar - Chthonic worldview that precedes the planetary models - and so therefore it also comes from a time ahead of the Neoplatonic Chain of Manifestation found in Kabbalah. For an intro to the earlier worldview see.

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I think this is all more flexible than most make it out to be, but a midway point: some mix the lunar angels and Goetia, so you might like

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The GV is very lunar focused - and I have not used them this way, but... it maybe very useful to experiment here by calling the angels of the Lunar Mansion for the effect you want , so that they then create the right aspects ahead of the grimoire conjuring ritual.

 

[joaogualbertosjr]

If that is your world-vision, and you want to mix mix Kabbalah and Goetia , while not my thing, I say run with it and try it out. I will never argue against boots-on-the-ground ritual workings. Rock on!

There is an argument to be made Goetia, as the entire practice, comes from a more Sublunar - Chthonic worldview that precedes the planetary models - and so therefore it also comes from a time ahead of the Neoplatonic Chain of Manifestation found in Kabbalah. For an intro to the earlier worldview see.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I think this is all more flexible than most make it out to be, but a midway point: some mix the lunar angels and Goetia, so you might like

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The GV is very lunar focused - and I have not used them this way, but... it maybe very useful to experiment here by calling the angels of the Lunar Mansion for the effect you want , so that they then create the right aspects ahead of the grimoire conjuring ritual.

You said you practice the Grimoire Verum; what books or literature would you recommend? I would like to start working with the Grimoire Verum.

 

[MorganBlack]

Excellent. Glad to hear it. Grimoire magic lives up to the hype.

I keep getting asked these questions and I probably need to make GV Primer, so let's beta test one. I got started in the 1990s when we had scraps and a "fuck it," sink-or-swim attitude, which will take you farther than trying to read the entire internet. I have pared down what I hope are the books most useful for people who are interested in the grimoires (below).

There are many ways to approach this, but it the GV is also not 100% flexible, and it not arbitrary. There is an 'Underworld Logic' to it, let's say.

The GV (Grimorium Verum) is a mythic journey you are taking. I recommend thinking of it as a quantum "Choose Your Own Adventure" book, and as a terrestrial reflection of the "real" grimoire - which we can imagine as a 5-Dimensional Necronomicon curated and shepherded by the demons themselves for those who need it.

If you are comfortable with Christian myth, then learn to pray like a Catholic - deeply and with great feeling - and just work the GV as it is, taking it at 80% face value. Keep the Infernal Hierarchy in place, which the GV does by default. It’s baked in to the ritual structure. Adding the Four Kings is useful. See the Winds in David Rankine's recent writings.

Without taking it all overly literally (and killing the living poetry), I generally recommend Neoplatonism as an operative model for your sense of how the Universe works. Spend some time reading and internalizing it. I had already done so, but a number of goetic magicians are reporting back "cooler" and "kinder" manifestations after they internalize the Neoplatonic worldview.

Check my broader recommendations here under:

1. Essential Core Concepts
2. Contemporary Books
3. Philosophical / Theological / Practical (Classic)

Book Club - Recommended Reading List for Chao-Animist Necromancy

I would add here David Rankine's Claves Spirituum as essential reading.

Jake Stratton-Kent's writing onthe GV is excellent for filling in some of the mythic backstory. I am a bit more Catholic than he was. Jake was more of a philosophical pagan, but a very sophisticated Thelemic one that is more Panethist than modern pagan literalism. In my view, these are all additive layers of meaning rather than subtractive ones. In the end, these are mostly affordances for us to try to get a ritual handle on what are really deep mysteries. Somthing to keep to kind mind for when people start arguing on the internet over batteling cosmological visions.

Using the protocols of grimoires like the GV (Grimorium Verum) is kind of like powering up the Batman "Bat Signal" so they know you are not a complete idiot who will waste their time. Read the GV about how the spirits only help their friends and allies. Doing all this absurd stuff demonstrates a certain level of sincerity they require to get to their better sides. It establishes "right relation" for a number of reasons. Learn about indigenous "shamanic" understandings of the world for how that works.

For a very actionable, low-theory entry point into the GV system, try using the conjure method. It works very well and is very suggestive. Just one note: in goign thies implifed route you are forgoing some of the protection gained from engaging in more formal protocols. Check my reading list for Hoodoo/Conjure recommendations.

JSK Verum: Conjureman Ali - 'Verum Hoodoo Results' (2011)

See also Rob Rider Hill's GV book here:

Book – PDF - Rob Rider Hill -'The Little Key to the True Grimoire' (Hadean, 2020)

Not to spark Verum Fundamentalism but engaging sincerely with the grimoire entails a bit of tussling, skipping and tripping along a mythic journey to meet the daimons. I appreciate Rob Rider Hill is undertaking his journey in public and while he is rethinking his approach to Verum I think it is...

wizardforums.com

 

[joaogualbertosjr]

Excellent. Glad to hear it. Grimoire magic lives up to the hype.

I keep getting asked these questions and I probably need to make GV Primer, so let's beta test one. I got started in the 1990s when we had scraps and a "fuck it," sink-or-swim attitude, which will take you farther than trying to read the entire internet. I have pared down what I hope are the books most useful for people who are interested in the grimoires (below).

There are many ways to approach this, but it the GV is also not 100% flexible, and it not arbitrary. There is an 'Underworld Logic' to it, let's say.

The GV (Grimorium Verum) is a mythic journey you are taking. I recommend thinking of it as a quantum "Choose Your Own Adventure" book, and as a terrestrial reflection of the "real" grimoire - which we can imagine as a 5-Dimensional Necronomicon curated and shepherded by the demons themselves for those who need it.

If you are comfortable with Christian myth, then learn to pray like a Catholic - deeply and with great feeling - and just work the GV as it is, taking it at 80% face value. Keep the Infernal Hierarchy in place, which the GV does by default. It’s baked in to the ritual structure. Adding the Four Kings is useful. See the Winds in David Rankine's recent writings.

Without taking it all overly literally (and killing the living poetry), I generally recommend Neoplatonism as an operative model for your sense of how the Universe works. Spend some time reading and internalizing it. I had already done so, but a number of goetic magicians are reporting back "cooler" and "kinder" manifestations after they internalize the Neoplatonic worldview.

Check my broader recommendations here under:

1. Essential Core Concepts
2. Contemporary Books
3. Philosophical / Theological / Practical (Classic)

Book Club - Recommended Reading List for Chao-Animist Necromancy

I would add here David Rankine's Claves Spirituum as essential reading.

Jake Stratton-Kent's writing onthe GV is excellent for filling in some of the mythic backstory. I am a bit more Catholic than he was. Jake was more of a philosophical pagan, but a very sophisticated Thelemic one that is more Panethist than modern pagan literalism. In my view, these are all additive layers of meaning rather than subtractive ones. In the end, these are mostly affordances for us to try to get a ritual handle on what are really deep mysteries. Somthing to keep to kind mind for when people start arguing on the internet over batteling cosmological visions.

Using the protocols of grimoires like the GV (Grimorium Verum) is kind of like powering up the Batman "Bat Signal" so they know you are not a complete idiot who will waste their time. Read the GV about how the spirits only help their friends and allies. Doing all this absurd stuff demonstrates a certain level of sincerity they require to get to their better sides. It establishes "right relation" for a number of reasons. Learn about indigenous "shamanic" understandings of the world for how that works.

For a very actionable, low-theory entry point into the GV system, try using the conjure method. It works very well and is very suggestive. Just one note: in goign thies implifed route you are forgoing some of the protection gained from engaging in more formal protocols. Check my reading list for Hoodoo/Conjure recommendations.

JSK Verum: Conjureman Ali - 'Verum Hoodoo Results' (2011)

See also Rob Rider Hill's GV book here:

Book – PDF - Rob Rider Hill -'The Little Key to the True Grimoire' (Hadean, 2020)

Not to spark Verum Fundamentalism but engaging sincerely with the grimoire entails a bit of tussling, skipping and tripping along a mythic journey to meet the daimons. I appreciate Rob Rider Hill is undertaking his journey in public and while he is rethinking his approach to Verum I think it is...

wizardforums.com

Thanks bro, could you answer a few more questions for me? You said it's interesting to call upon the Four Kings, I do that in the Goetia, but how would it be in the Verum? Would I invoke the Four Kings and then invoke one or all three Infernal Kings (Lucifer, Beelzebub, Astaroth)?