If you can get results just by using intent with energy, what use are spirits, Jinn, angels etc. Do they amplify or speed up something?

[Beyond Everything]

Speaking from experience, I have found the greatest success with using these methods for internal work and less so for external change.

It sounds like you have some significant blocks/maladaptive programming.

Regardless of whether you consider them egregores or actual external intelligences, spirits are capable of moving and manipulating subtle energies just as skilfully as we move and manipulate things with our opposable thumb based hands. They are largely made up of these types of energies and so this comes naturally to them. Their ability to move things in the physical world is usually limited, but their ability to move the subtle energies higher up in the chain of manifestation certainly beats ours.

Of course, take what I said as nothing more than speculative theory. To me, it makes sense based on everything I have read in Hermeticism, Kabbalah, etc, but you might have your own takes on it.

The fact that discarnate entities have certain capablities doesn't automatically translate into better general results for the practitioner. That's why beloved people like Gordon White or Brother Moloch aren't around anymore, and why Haiti is a disaster zone in perpetuity.

There's also a crucial factor which once again we find occultists oblivious to. It is called dependency. If you program yourself (instilling and nurturing energy complexes) that you must lean on other things, you will be aborting your full power. You will not be tapping those hidden parts of the self that are needed for true magical initiation, and that has ramifications for the post-mortem state above all.

 

[dzb10035]

It sounds like you have some significant blocks/maladaptive programming.


The fact that discarnate entities have certain capablities doesn't automatically translate into better general results for the practitioner. That's why beloved people like Gordon White or Brother Moloch aren't around anymore, and why Haiti is a disaster zone in perpetuity.

There's also a crucial factor which once again we find occultists oblivious to. It is called dependency. If you program yourself (instilling and nurturing energy complexes) that you must lean on other things, you will be aborting your full power. You will not be tapping those hidden parts of the self that are needed for true magical initiation, and that has ramifications for the post-mortem state above all.

Who the hell knows? I have always had a preference for working with spirits anyway, so maybe that frames my beliefs in it. Either way, you have a point on the issue of dependency; too much reliance on a spirit for affecting change in the world will end up giving too much power to it. So there is still a point in balancing out magick sourced from spirits with that sourced from personal power.

There will be practitioners who gain better results from sigils, just as there will be those who get better results from spirits. In my own view, my experiences inform me toward the latter, but I maintain enough flexibility to believe that there is possibility for the former. I do believe in the picture I gave and the rationale behind it, but there is no way to objectively say if it is true. But you seem to have a very specific opinion on this subject, I would love to hear your developed thoughts on the pros and cons of the spirit approach.

You clearly have some personal observations for it, so could you share some of them in general terms to help answer OPs questions?

 

[embitca]

I prefer the spirit approach rather than trying to always move things with my own energy and mindset. Also, I just find it more fun. It is much more interesting to me to do spirit invocation than coming up with a sigil or some such and I think my strong engagement with the activity is part of the success I have with this approach. There's lot of ways to do magic. I don't think any one way is universally better than another, but certainly some approach work better than others at the level of the individual performing the action.

I didn't realize Brother Moloch passed! Sorry to hear about that.

 

[querent k]

It´s just fun to put on a robe, light some incense and candles, goof around with props like tarot cards, bell/dorje, a phurba, singing bowls, write petitions to Abraxas and/or Khonsu and/or Aladiah, feed spell jars, etc. Obviously, you can do it all as pure mind magick/intent work. Minimalism, maximalism, whatever gets you going...

 

[Lurker]

. . . or Brother Moloch aren't around anymore . . .

You sure about that? This video is only 8 days old.

I know he is Grump-a-Saurus Rex, but let's not kill him off until he actually dies.

Post automatically merged: Monday at 10:15 PM

And by "kill him off" I mean "spread rumors and prematurely eulogize him".

 

[Aldebaran]

Spirits, entities, angels, demons, gods—whatever name you give them, they are crutches.
Humans have been trained to kneel before everything except themselves. They no longer trust their own judgment, instinct, or authority. They need a priest, teacher, doctor, book, spirit, wikipedia, 'source', or god to tell them they are right.

Weakness always looks for a master.

You do not need these motherfuckers. Not for wisdom. Not for power. Not for protection. Not for magic. Most are not what they claim to be, and none deserve your obedience.

You are the authority. Stand upright.

Kneel before nothing.

 

[Beyond Everything]

You sure about that? This video is only 8 days old.

I know he is Grump-a-Saurus Rex, but let's not kill him off until he actually dies.

Post automatically merged: Monday at 10:15 PM

And by "kill him off" I mean "spread rumors and prematurely eulogize him".

Oh, it's just what I was told. Apparently I was misinformed so apologies to all and sundry. So it just turns out he was hospitalized and his website disappeared.

Speaking of- him and the IGOS guy (Thorguard) were both slandering each other on webpages, after working together for years. Apparently neither of their magick was good enough to actually do anything about it. And given the awful things they said about one another, why were they associated for all those years?

Anyway my larger point stands when one has tallied up close observation over many years. Repeatedly if one has discernment one will see the sorts of problems our invisible 'helpers' create- giving with one hand and taking away with the other.

Post automatically merged: Monday at 10:49 PM

Spirits, entities, angels, demons, gods—whatever name you give them, they are crutches.
Humans have been trained to kneel before everything except themselves. They no longer trust their own judgment, instinct, or authority. They need a priest, teacher, doctor, book, spirit, wikipedia, 'source', or god to tell them they are right.

Weakness always looks for a master.

You do not need these motherfuckers. Not for wisdom. Not for power. Not for protection. Not for magic. Most are not what they claim to be, and none deserve your obedience.

You are the authority. Stand upright.

Kneel before nothing.

People are looking for spirit mommies and daddies, to frame it bluntly. The inner potential is not tapped as long as someone looks outside of themselves. There's a vast powerhouse within but as long as you are alienated from the deep inner self youre only going to be stuck with whatever collectivist energies and various predatory beings decide to give you. And your future once you expire is then nil.

 

[BlackRose97]

I think of spirits, angels, or Jinn as pre-built, highly specialized energetic pathways. Yes, we can theoretically build an engine from scratch using just raw intent and energy, but working with an established entity is like using a high-performance, ready-made machine.

They don't just amplify or speed things up; they provide a specific 'flavor' of intelligence and structure that raw human intent often lacks. When you use pure energy, you have to hold the visualization and the target perfectly, which is exhausting. An entity acts as an autonomous program you feed it the intent, and it navigates the complex web of reality on its own to deliver the result, often in ways your conscious mind couldn't have planned. It’s about efficiency and precision.