Inherited Magic

[Frater M.M.]

I suppose I meant the third one --magic being an innate trait. It is not quite like the magic gene, in which you are either blessed or you do not have it.
..One may inherit the possibility of having magic powers, although not all will have the same.
So, in my example, it appears that the grandson is completely void of magic, but he could have passed on the possibility to the daughter, who then develops her magical traits...

Yeah, I had a feeling it was like something along these lines. So it's still something you could inherit but you may well have to train it for results?

This seems an interesting and reasonable position to propose, IMO.

As I said before, I consider magic to be an unexpected by-product of normal human consciousness; something so fundamental that you would not be a person without it.

You might, I suppose, have genetic predispositions that make it harder to get your head round the necessary techniques, but, as we know, most forms of neurodiversity do not seem to be a barrier to magical success, so I'm not sure what those genetic predispositions might be. Maybe if you were born without a corpus callosum.

These are good/interesting points. I'd push back in a couple of directions, though -- although, to be clear, I don't really have a fixed position on this; just trying to understand the landscape at the moment

(i) Short answer is I don't know what these barriers might be. We'd have to wait for more empirical data to come in like the study I listed to support or not support this idea. However, we have non-controversial examples such as color blindness and prosopagnosia. These deficiencies can't be trained away (as far as I'm aware) although training may help ppl to compensate for them or improve performance. We have no obvious reason (a priori) to think psi powers might be exempt from that.

(ii) Also, we have (anecdotal) examples of ppl having psychic experiences with zero training (like myself and other ppl I've known). These could just be spontaneous emergent activity of the brain as a whole but then how much heavy lifting is training actually doing and what else exactly is at play?

So yes we could definitely expand my tentative model (and yes there are sill loads of options and combinations missing) and remove the word "innate" as a poor choice of word:

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John Constantine School of Thought:

[1] Recipe magic with utilised material ingredients doing the heavy lifting.
[2] Prayer magic or requests to spirits with spirits doing the heavy lifting
[3a] Naturalistic/emergent psi magic/powers (arising from e.g. a 2026 human brain) with the training of these skills/abilities doing the heavy lifting.

JK Rowling School of Thought:

[3b] Some inherited genetic combination giving rise to psi/powers (that may or may not need training) with genes/brain doing heavy lifting.

Cosmic Destiny School of Thought:

[4] Psi powers/abilities linked to imprinting at conception/birth but arising from cosmic powers/forces, which do the heavy lifting.

Hybrid Models:

[5] Naturalistic/emergent psi magic/powers (from e.g. a 2026 human brain) with the training of these skills/abilities doing the heavy lifting -- but some ppl (for whatever reason) are so constrained, magically speaking, by their brain that for practical purposes their magical abilities are so weak that they are never able to achieve any (meaningful) results no matter how much they try.

 

[Eldros]

Louisa Morgan, in

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thinks- that magic can be passed down through generations without necessarily showing itself in every child. So I like the idea that when a witch has a child with an ordinary human, the magic might become very weak - or even seem to disappear for a generation -only to reappear later in a descendant.
In that case, the magic isn’t really gone or “diluted” -it’s just dormant. A child might seem completely ordinary, only for their own child to suddenly show strong magical abilities...
I think that makes the idea of magical inheritance much more interesting, because you can never be completely sure when it will appear again.

 

[ewiz]

Louisa Morgan, in

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thinks- that magic can be passed down through generations without necessarily showing itself in every child. So I like the idea that when a witch has a child with an ordinary human, the magic might become very weak - or even seem to disappear for a generation -only to reappear later in a descendant.
In that case, the magic isn’t really gone or “diluted” -it’s just dormant. A child might seem completely ordinary, only for their own child to suddenly show strong magical abilities...
I think that makes the idea of magical inheritance much more interesting, because you can never be completely sure when it will appear again.

This book is a work of fiction. Along with everything else you're talking about. Anyone who seriously believes the sort of thing you're talking about is completely full of shit. I'm not surprised that there have been some decent points discussed here, buy I am surprised that this idea is even being entertained here.

 

[Eldros]

This book is a work of fiction. Along with everything else you're talking about. Anyone who seriously believes the sort of thing you're talking about is completely full of shit. I'm not surprised that there have been some decent points discussed here, buy I am surprised that this idea is even being entertained here.

Of course, the book is fiction, but that doesn’t mean the idea is completely made up or has nothing behind it.
I’m not saying we can prove magic exists… I’m just saying that the idea of something being weak or hidden in one generation and then showing up again later isn’t really that crazy.
We already know traits can be passed down without showing up in every generation....

 

[ewiz]

Nope, what you're describing is entirely made up. And the idea you're talking about, with magic people breeding with "ordinary people" and producing inherited magic powers, is some nonsense that you made up. This might work for setting the framework of a fictional story, but is entirely useless to people studying and practicing magic. Someone's efforts at doing magic are not limited by some imaginary magic powers being inherited or not.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

(ii) Also, we have (anecdotal) examples of ppl having psychic experiences with zero training (like myself and other ppl I've known). These could just be spontaneous emergent activity of the brain as a whole but then how much heavy lifting is training actually doing and what else exactly is at play?

I think the main thing that the training will be doing is teaching you to focus your intent, otherwise all you get is synchronicity - randomised magic. It might produce awesome things sometimes, but without proper magical intent behind it, all you'll normally get is stuff like the number of your taxi matching the last digits of your phone number - unlikely, but useless

 

[oregano]

ok let's think this through

a "magic gene" would be a gene that carried an energy outside of the normal meanings/associations of the standard human genome, no?

so in other words, a gene that meant something other than what its evolutionary function is

where might a gene get such a meaning i wonder? would mean that the information present in the gene exists in some other, non-biological contxt

for this other context to exist long enough for things like magical lines of inheritance to exist would imply knowledge of genetics existing for at least as long as the line of inheritance existed

in any case, none of this changes the syntax of genetics. therefore, your question is already answered by regular biology and actually has nothing to do with magic

that is, unless the magic gene has some kind of meta-genetic meaning that allows it to affect the syntax of genes in ways outside of normal human biology. in which case it's anyone's guess

 

[WonderFire]

Magical talent is mostly inherited, like other talents such as musical talent, artistic talent, mathematical talent, beauty, intelligence etc. It can also be "inherited" from a past life. Morgan mentioned spirit courts and inherited spirits, that's also a thing.
However, unlike other talents it can be acquired, but not easily and it is usually hair rising affair.
Mostly the talent for magic doesn't look like "occultism", it is more likely that the family with the ability will be religious and ascribe their success to "God" talking to them and rewarding them for their goodness.

Anyway, for your original question, the child will most likely inherit the flame but might not be interested in developing it if they have a nice life. The descendants might be, which is where you get the whole "skipping a generation" bit.

 

[Ohana]

The only way I think someone could inherit magick is either through previous ancestors that established themselves as guides or entities that appeal to previous reIationships established by past ancestors. Otherwise I think "inherited" magick wouId just be your environment being more magick aligned if parents or any relatives practiced like say there's books on the occuIt lying around. Thats my 2 cents on it atleast.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

Thank you. It seems that in the West, some people have studied Eastern philosophies or arrived at them through their own insight, and that’s not unlikely. But in all three cases, it happens only after one reaches the cosmic level.
To give a simple example: you, me, and everyone else will never be world champions in shot put or squash, for instance, and we’ll never be like Arnold Schwarzenegger.
This doesn’t mean we aren’t superior in other areas, but we have fundamental, genetic characteristics that hold us back, even if we want to.
To the same extent, the spiritual current that forms the basis of magic is vital.
Indeed, once the powers are imprinted, the best thing for a practitioner is to know how weak they are—whether they strengthen themselves, for example, with incense or food, or travel from one realm to another.

Or to summon spirits. Or to reach what we call nirvana, which leads him to the spiritual pinnacle—magic achieved through mere thought—which is what I’m struggling to master.

There are those who will succeed only through spirits, and I’ll tell you something else.
There are those whose destiny is to be merely teachers—possessing exceptionally powerful mental, research, and teaching abilities—but in practical terms, no matter how closely they follow the rules, they lack magical power.

We have a concept called “spiritual permission,” which means that a connected person must grant you permission to enter; without it, you’re like someone trying to travel across the barren desert without a guide.
Let’s see how they’ll get there.
That’s why there’s a form of parenthood that isn’t biological but spiritual.
What I’m talking about is real and true.
My loyal friend and respected man, @MorganBlack—I hope you received the message, as I sent it weeks ago. And I’ll tell you an open secret: the Perfect One permits four to follow the same path, and the sharing of secrets among those in the know is not a revelation of those secrets.
You’re welcome to ask about anything related to Eastern knowledge.

To the rest of my friends, have a wonderful day.


Translated with DeepL.com

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 4:18 AM

ohn Constantine School of Thought:

[1] Recipe magic with utilised material ingredients doing the heavy lifting.
[2] Prayer magic or requests to spirits with spirits doing the heavy lifting
[3a] Naturalistic/emergent psi magic/powers (arising from e.g. a 2026 human brain) with the training of these skills/abilities doing the heavy lifting

Cosmic Destiny School of Thought:

This is what I meant by the “flow of thoughts”—sorry, I forgot to mention it.

 

[Eldros]

I was just thinking about it in terms of natural talent. ..
.I once had a neighbor who was an architect, and his son, who was about my age, could draw buildings and cars with almost mathematical precision.
His father was away a lot for work, so he didn't really teach him all that. It always seemed like something the boy had simply inherited.//
So why couldn't something similar happen with magic?
If a witch has a child with an ordinary human, why couldn't there be some kind of magical offspring who inherits at least a little of that potential? Maybe the ability would be very weak, or not manifest at all, and then perhaps show up again much more strongly in a later generation.
I'm not saying that's exactly how it works --- I just think it's an interesting possibility. If magical ability can be inherited, I don't see why having a human parent would automatically make it disappear.

 

[Frater M.M.]

I think the main thing that the training will be doing is teaching you to focus your intent, otherwise all you get is synchronicity - randomised magic. It might produce awesome things sometimes, but without proper magical intent behind it, all you'll normally get is stuff like the number of your taxi matching the last digits of your phone number - unlikely, but useless

I see. This is a great response. So your model is (post-LN&P) Carroll-ish in flavor? An emergent feature of the brain/consciousness is to nudge reality when properly focussed? Deities, herbs, stones, talismans, angels/demons, runes, etc. are not doing any heavy lifting but are simply mood music for the brain to get it to focus its intent so it can effect willed change? All the talk of genetic inheritance is basically irrelevant as long as you have a human brain (barring catastrophic damage or major developmental differences, I guess) because there is only one mechanism which is the generic ability to focus intent? Some ppl may have to work a bit harder to get into "gnosis" (given their genetic profile) but at the end of the day any c*** can do it?

Honesty compels me to reveal that my earliest spontaneous anomalous experience was in fact a very specific but completely useless dream that came true the next day

I have often wondered if it was a cosmic troll but your model can also accommodate my personal experience (if I've understood it right). Very interesting and reasonable, IMO.

This is what I meant by the “flow of thoughts”—sorry, I forgot to mention it.

Thanks, very interesting to read your perspective as well (especially the way you blend multiple theories). I've never really considered cosmic forces, so something to add to the list of things to explore.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

Deities, herbs, stones, talismans, angels/demons, runes, etc. are not doing any heavy lifting but are simply mood music for the brain to get it to focus its intent so it can effect willed change?

Normally, I try not to put it like that as it sounds like I'm negating people's actual experiences (I am not), but yeah, basically.

I suppose the biggest insight would be "You do not change the world, you experience the version of the world where the change is present." Kinda like the difference between the Sun looking like it goes around the Earth, and the fact that the Earth actually goes around the Sun.

The Engineering of Coincidence: a scientific explanation of magic

What is magic? We all know that magic exists, but can it ever be explained? Over thirty years ago, I set out to answer these questions, and to look for a truly scientific explanation of magic. Now, I'm not bright enough to invent new physics, or dumb enough to try and pick loopholes in the...

wizardforums.com

 

[Golden Saturn]

What would happen to a child of a witch or wizard and an ordinary person?

There are more possibilities - either the child will have magic but may lack any manifestations or the magic might skip the next generation...
The child can have no or very weak manifestation of the magical power or he might become a strong magician.
Let us consider one possible scenario - the witch gives birth to her daughter from a human. The daughter does have some magic but is quite weak. After that the girl gives birth to her son from a human too, and the son lacks any magic manifestation. But then his daughter begins to show some magical abilities.
So, magic can skip a generation and reappear later.

What do you think? Can it skip a generation, or does it disappear if a witch/wizard has a child with a human?

"may lack any manifestations or the magic might skip the next generation". Important question, why is child struggling to manifest, or has no magic ability? I am been studying astrology. To be specific, traditional astrology. A child is born with extraordinary magic ability to ordinary parent. It can be happen. Why do the child have it, not ordinary parent? Or Why do the child have no magic ability or have no interest in magic study?

Natal chart of the child can tell me something. Exalted Mars Capricorn, Mercury Gemini or Virgo, and Mars Scorpio. One of those planets can indicate that child has magic ability or will pursue to study occultism. Jupiter is in bound of Mercury can indicate child can influence something with just mind. This is general example. Mercury Gemini and Mercury Virgo are natural skilled magicians. Of course, I have to consider the third house or the ninth house of the natal chart to confirm that child will pursue in occult study or not.

 

[Digiquo]

I was just thinking about it in terms of natural talent. ..
.I once had a neighbor who was an architect, and his son, who was about my age, could draw buildings and cars with almost mathematical precision.
His father was away a lot for work, so he didn't really teach him all that. It always seemed like something the boy had simply inherited.//
So why couldn't something similar happen with magic?
If a witch has a child with an ordinary human, why couldn't there be some kind of magical offspring who inherits at least a little of that potential? Maybe the ability would be very weak, or not manifest at all, and then perhaps show up again much more strongly in a later generation.
I'm not saying that's exactly how it works --- I just think it's an interesting possibility. If magical ability can be inherited, I don't see why having a human parent would automatically make it disappear.

I think you are really hung up on this notion of magic being a thing inside of you, rather than a thing you do.
It's the difference between "being a good storyteller" and "writing with a pencil on a piece of paper". Magic is the latter, it's an operation performed. Whether someone is any good at using it is a different story, but the magic itself is an external tool.

And ew, AI slop.

 

[Eldros]

"may lack any manifestations or the magic might skip the next generation". Important question, why is child struggling to manifest, or has no magic ability? I am been studying astrology. To be specific, traditional astrology. A child is born with extraordinary magic ability to ordinary parent. It can be happen. Why do the child have it, not ordinary parent? Or Why do the child have no magic ability or have no interest in magic study?

Natal chart of the child can tell me something. Exalted Mars Capricorn, Mercury Gemini or Virgo, and Mars Scorpio. One of those planets can indicate that child has magic ability or will pursue to study occultism. Jupiter is in bound of Mercury can indicate child can influence something with just mind. This is general example. Mercury Gemini and Mercury Virgo are natural skilled magicians. Of course, I have to consider the third house or the ninth house of the natal chart to confirm that child will pursue in occult study or not.

That’s actually pretty interesting. So maybe having magical potential and actually developing it are two different things.
Someone could have strong magic but never realize it, while someone with weaker magic could be really interested in studying it....
So would the natal chart show their potential, or more their tendency to develop it??

 

[Dyn Hysbys]

That’s actually pretty interesting. So maybe having magical potential and actually developing it are two different things.
Someone could have strong magic but never realize it, while someone with weaker magic could be really interested in studying it....
So would the natal chart show their potential, or more their tendency to develop it??

No one 'has' magic, that seems to be where you're getting stuck.
Magic is a skill set, like knitting or learning to sing.

 

[Eldros]

No one 'has' magic, that seems to be where you're getting stuck.
Magic is a skill set, like knitting or learning to sing.

...Okay, I think we're just imagining magic differently
Let's agree to disagree and leave the poor magic alone for now...

 

[Frater M.M.]

Normally, I try not to put it like that as it sounds like I'm negating people's actual experiences (I am not), but yeah, basically.

FWIW I don't get that impression from your posts. In fact, I think it's important to have competing models and ppl mapping all these out so we can sharpen/refine them all.

I suppose the biggest insight would be "You do not change the world, you experience the version of the world where the change is present." Kinda like the difference between the Sun looking like it goes around the Earth, and the fact that the Earth actually goes around the Sun.

The Engineering of Coincidence: a scientific explanation of magic

What is magic? We all know that magic exists, but can it ever be explained? Over thirty years ago, I set out to answer these questions, and to look for a truly scientific explanation of magic. Now, I'm not bright enough to invent new physics, or dumb enough to try and pick loopholes in the...

wizardforums.com

I was walking in Shadow, seeking a place, a very special place. It had been destroyed once, but I had the power to re-create it, for Amber casts an infinity of shadows. A child of Amber may walk among them, and such was my heritage. You may call them parallel worlds if you wish, alternate universes if you would, the products of a deranged mind if you care to. I call them shadows, as do all who possess the power to walk among them. We select a possibility and we walk until we reach it. So, in a sense, we create it. Let’s leave it at that for now.

— Roger Zelazny, The Guns of Avalon, Chapter 4


Ah, the Zelazny school of thought (but not just an Amberites-only club)

[1a] Carroll: focussing our intent enables our brains(?) to create/nudge reality into the state we desire.

[1b] Robert: focussing our intent enables our brain to help us trace a path through a multiverse to an existing universe that corresponds to our desired state.

 

[ewiz]

...Okay, I think we're just imagining magic differently
Let's agree to disagree and leave the poor magic alone for now...

You seem very hung up on some things that simply don't exist outside of fantasy fiction. You're "imagining" magic in some way that doesn't reflect what anyone here does with it. There is no such thing as "magic people" or "ordinary people."

As for children seeming to "inherit" skills that their parents have, like musical and artistic talents (and surely magic), this likely has to do with environmental exposure at a young age, in addition to their parents teaching them. This is very easy to understand when you look at neuroplasticity in childhood. This effect also likely contributed to the development caste systems, where a son of a priest would be better suited to be a priest, and the son of a builder better suited to building etc. And that in turn led to the idea that spiritual people's children inherit something special.

The whole line of thinking you're imagining would be great if you're writing a novel. If you actually want to learn about and practice magic, you need to throw all of that away. It's only going to do damage to your ability to achieve success by building up this artificial wall in your head that magic is somehow limited by inheritance. It's walls like these that prevent someone from doing magic, and it has nothing to do with you being just an "ordinary human."