"Initiating" People Around You

[nunaphael]

I don't mean to make this into a moral debate about whether it's right or wrong to force someone else into an initiation that they aren't ready for. In fact, I mean to sidestep that entire discussion right away by framing it this way instead: consider that, once one has themselves become "initiated" and perhaps even spent a little time as a "journeyman" own their own path, there is a quality about you that others will unconsciously react to in your presence that can automatically trigger "synchronicity" for them and thus "initiate" them into something whether you actually meant for this to occur or not.

But supposing that you did actually have the conscious intention of directly "stimulating" the sorts of experiences that can generate synchronicity for other people, how would you do it? Assuming you have common sense, and we're not talking about transgressing anyone's obvious personal boundaries, what I'm asking is, how would you create a "space" for synchronicity to occur on its own if it wants to, around yourself, and intensify this kind of "aura" if you will, to the point that it becomes really quire powerful and sets off all kinds of "initiatory" experiences for people when you turn it up?

After recently watching a series called "Hellier", which is literally about this (I highly recommend watching it, it's free on youtube), I was introduced to three ideas that kind of break this down into almost a science. In one episode they make a reference to a book that talks about applying anthropological ideas to the paranormal in order to derive these three qualities that come up over and over and over again in relation to paranormal experiences. The three qualities that are most often connected with or associated with the experience of paranormal events or synchronicity, are places, things, ideas, people, events, and so forth that we consider either "liminal", "marginalized", or "unstructured".

Liminal just means "in-between", so things that are unfinished or connecting to points or crossroads or places with lots of movement, or caves, rivers, mountains, high up places, secret passages, etc. But also events that never seem to finish, like a journey that hits a dead end and feels unfinished, left open, like something more was meant to happen, something urging you to keep going but you're not sure where. Or people that have that kind of quality to them, giving you half-truths, hints, signs, something you can't ignore, but not enough to understand what it means.

Marginalized means things that are pushed out, blocked out, ignored, mistreated, abused, scorned, hated, banned, forbidden, taboo, criminal, heretical, blasphemous, and so forth. All the things that people consider "trouble" and want "nothing to do with". It doesn't matter why. There's always reasons. There's always currents that people are aligned with and there's the strong currents and the weak currents. This applies to everything just as much as the idea of liminality, there's marginalized people, places, events, things, ideas, and you name it, the list could potentially include everything you could ever think of at one point in time to a certain person or group of people.

And then there's the "unstructured". This is just pure chaos, the unknown, the unpredicted, the unexpected, the uncontrollable, the destructive, the disruptive, the revolutionary, when things get "out of control", when "there's nothing we can do at this point", and we are basically feeling completely helpless or swept up, swept away even. Things are just completely overwhelming, it's just psychological overload, too much information, too much of whatever it is, your just cannot take it. You cannot control yourself in the presence of this uncontrollable energy, whatever it is. The disruption it causes completely disrupts you. Again, this could be a thing, a place, a person, an event, an idea, whatever.

It doesn't just make a lot of sense to me, it absolutely aligns with my own personal experiences, what got me into this, and how I continue to remain engaged with what I am doing day to day when I do my rites and ceremonies. It's almost like these three concepts are literally salt, spice, and sugar. They are the three "magical ingredients" that really activate the recipe. But how do you conceptualize all of this? What's your take on the whole process of "initiation"? Do you think it requires ceremonies and formalities? Does it have to be a deliberate "ritual"? Or could it more organic for some people, something that you just feel "called" to and make a decision to either engage with or ignore, and then somehow it just "happens" to those people?

 

[Frater M.M.]

But supposing that you did actually have the conscious intention of directly "stimulating" the sorts of experiences that can generate synchronicity for other people, how would you do it?

This reminds of the DKMU project called Ellis: tagging her sigil in public places for ppl to see to generate an anomaly/synchronicity zone around it. Around 15 years ago this project was full on but no idea what happened to it (or even DKMU for that matter).

Assuming you have common sense, and we're not talking about transgressing anyone's obvious personal boundaries, what I'm asking is, how would you create a "space" for synchronicity to occur on its own if it wants to, around yourself, and intensify this kind of "aura" if you will, to the point that it becomes really quire powerful and sets off all kinds of "initiatory" experiences for people when you turn it up?

I remember ppl tattooing themselves with her sigil, not quite sure why -- a current search tells me it was pretty close to your purpose: to become a continuing/living node in the Ellisian network. They called these ppl "Fleshcrafted".

I guess in theory you could wear a black t-shirt with a giant version of her sigil in white on it and wander about for ppl to look at. I'm not sure if anyone tried this or what would happen.

 

[nunaphael]

I guess in theory you could wear a black t-shirt with a giant version of her sigil in white on it and wander about for ppl to look at. I'm not sure if anyone tried this or what would happen.

This doesn't seem like a bad idea to me actually, especially if you could turn it into a brand identity and make it look fashionable. Almost like you are inserting a virus into the "matrix" of society without people realizing they are participating in something more than just a fad or something that "looks cool". With different lines released under your own brand you could turn your entire business into an elaborate decentralized occult ritual and never tell a soul. You could keep the entire thing to yourself, not even tell your wife. Even if people were suspicious, it's not like they would ever be able to prove it.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I guess in theory you could wear a black t-shirt with a giant version of her sigil in white on it and wander about for ppl to look at. I'm not sure if anyone tried this or what would happen.

After long discussions with a mate of mine, he created a sigil for his band, which they had on T-shirts, album covers etc. I'm sure it's helped their success

 

[Beyond Everything]

The only real initiation is by the Self. It has zero to do with rituals, reciting flowery poems, speaking latin or hebrew, standing with stupid outfits on , or being in the presence of someone bringing in an egregore (aka assuming the godform). It's not even being the recipient of shaktipat.

There is a vast difference between being connected to egregoric powers and real initiation. A real initiation is not being inducted into a group or a collectivist-energy stream. It is in fact the road to the furthest form of individuation (and I'm not speaking of jungian individuation)

 

[Albintres]

I once had an encounter I would like to relate from a time I was a tour guide in Austria. part of my duties was to meet passengers arriving off the planes at Geneva airport often very early in the morning and I was often amongst the very few people around at that time. I remember seeing striding across the empty concourse somebody possibly a Buddhist monk, clutching a ticket and beaming the biggest smile a human face could carry comfortably. he had no luggage. his feet were filthy his hair long and matted so unlike a shaved monk but the startling thing was his robe was absolutely covered in paper, cardboard, ribbons and seemingly prayers, petitions and all the worries and fears of it seemed everybody he had ever met and he carried it all so lightly it was not even there at all. a magnificently holy man I supposed and he looked like he didn't give a shit but the sheer presence and energy was like a wave of pure love. he ignored me but even his ignorance was a blessing. he had sailed through the building the same way he had sailed through life I guess transcended above the mundane and fixed on a purpose only he could see. a better advert for Buddhism I have not seen since.

it would be tempting to say I dropped everything and became a Buddhist on the strength of that chance encounter, but practicality and a coach load of Glaswegian holiday makers cut short my dream like exposure to a genuine holy creature besides the Fates had other adventures in store for me.

 

[Noctua]

Liminal just means "in-between"

Liminal is derived from the Latin noun "limen," which is a physical threshold, implying an imminent transition or passage. The Roman god of liminal spaces is Janus. As you pointed out, one is betwixt and between.

This is an old chestnut, now, but Grant Morrison's comics series The Invisibles is a hypersigil designed with initiatory aspects.

 

[r4zorenigma]

Initiation really has to do with a shift in consciousness where the persons reality is opened to a new layer of consciousness.. one that sits a bit parallel to ours, or right under. Thus, alot of organizations that have initiatory practices, ie: gangs, mafias, covens, fraternities, magickal orders usually don't follow societies constructs for living and live by their own codes.

This shift can happen, and usually happens with formal initiation and less frequently with informal initiation.. but either way, living by the codes and their own ways of these orders and things, eventually the person will experience a proper initiation, if they had not formally been initiated..

An analogy i like to use is gangs. Most gangs have a formal initiation, usually with the member being jumped in, or beat up by members of the gang for an alloted time, 19 seconds or sometimes up to 2 minutes. This form of Yang vs ying energy.. with 5-6 people beating on 1 defenseless person causes a current and channel for initiation.. and a shift in consciousness and even sometimes can cause a possession of that individual. Which is why when some people join orders, covens, fraternities, gangs, there is almost an immediate shift in their personality.. this only happens to certain few individuals though that is noticeable right away. ie: in one of the fraternal organizations I have been apart of for ages, I noticed this with one of my friends when he reached a pinnacle degree, over a year into his membership.. after that ritual, his whole personality shifted as if he had been possessed by something else.. He was never quite the same. Some of my friends believe it was because he was hit in the head with a rather blunt object pretty hard.. The new him was something extraordinary however compared to the quiet, shy guy he used to be.

An informal initiation in a gang would be, to go out and commit a crime on behalf of the gang, such as shoot at a member of the opposition/rival gang or beat up a member of the opposing gang. While this may not cause the shift in the consciousness immediately that comes with formal initiations, it is still indeed a form of initiation .

 

[MorganBlack]

Well, you can do it together, but adding more people introduces instability if they are either not focused or not serious.

See Dr. Stephen Skinner talking about a hilarious if unintended Alice Bailey effec:

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I keep meaning to write up an early, mid 1990's group evocation of Bune, which was also very enlightening here on unintended effects.

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Hellier is good, but people can also easily get caught up in the Daimonic laser-light show. See the UFO crowd, ooohing and awing and getting nothing done. That is not magic. That is Pop-mysticism dressed up in mid-20th century sci-fi movies. All fine, but it is not magic as I understand it.

When you're dealing with Sublunar / Daimonic / Imaginal reality, the rules operate a little differently than the Chaos Magic / New Thought / Modern Magic-k (high magic-k) systems. The operative space is "in" Daimonic Reality, which creates "lower" manifestations that align with your expectations and culture, and specific story or ritual you are using (so Chaos magic ideas still apply, but there is also a shared dreamed-up reality aspect, per Bernardo Kastrup) And it is the space where the traditional magic system called sorcery gains its power, which can be shocking. But New Thought can be shocking in effect as well, but it is different. The "realms" are not the same. but overlap.

See George P. Hansen's The Trickster and the Paranormal for more on Daimonic space.

Book – EPUB/MOBI - George P. Hansen -The Trickster and the Paranormal (2001)

I looked around this could not be found. About the Book Paranormal and supernatural events have been reported for millennia. They have fostered history’s most important cultural transformations (e.g., via the miracles of Moses, Jesus, Mohammed). Paranormal phenomena are frequently portrayed...

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Also see Patrick Harpur's writing , who breaks things down for modern people a bit more cogently. Harpur breadly distinguishes between two paths, the Path of Spirit, which seeks unity and ascension, and the Path of Soul, which embraces multiplicity, complexity, and the messy intermediate realm where the daimons operate. This distinction largely creates two very different kinds of pratitoners and seekers.

Harpur's Daimonic realm and Hansen's tricksterish liminality put together very effectily describe the ontology of the space New World sorcery operate. Unless you have been part of these rather secretive groups - mostly beacsue hey are made of brown people behind (or in front of) a language barrier between us. The sorcerer, conjurer, Santero, or Palero is not working with "spirits" as abstract entities but with liminal presences. They blur- being a key word here - the boundaries between person and force, alive and dead, symbol and substance. They are liminal and truely weird in all the best ways.

 

[ahathoor]

Honestly, my answer to your question is "make art". Write a grimoire, make music, write a novel, etc. I'll be very fast and loose with my concepts here, but the universal technology we have for initiation is art / poetry; not the same thing but intertwined, and here i mean poetry to include music, ritual and other nonverbal art forms, if they carry that seed of the liminal, the not quite there yet present.

In a way, Hellier demonstrates this as an exemplar. A poem in the form of a clunky little documentary. (I particularly loved Phil Ford and JF Martell's podcast episode discussing it as a paranormal experience in se.) It's not the best poem I have ever seen, but it has a raw honesty which carries it past the issues in execution.

That said, I'd take most of what Greg Newkirk says with a good helping of distance. He strikes me a bit like the annoying kid in every class who knows exactly that [insert half-truth] and is very outspoken about it, and he's incredibly prone to over-generalizations.

 

[MorganBlack]

Adding this suggestive bit here as germane.

My sweetheart used to be an amateur paranormal investigator, until she got very scared one time. We keep meaning for me to attend with her to help control the manifestations to make them more useful.

Jason Black and Christopher Hyatt's 'Urban Voodoo' has pretty great section on conducting a paranormal investigation using the tools of traditional magic, which is more direct in approach, as a experienced magician would be.

I'd like to highlight the section below on not being a patsy. Do not project yourself into i! Do not project your hopes, fantasies, unresolved trauma, and personal lore into it, except to manifest it and then direct it to useful ends. This is just as true in the circle as in the wild.

(Real fast tangent. They are not talking about Vodou as the community religion. They say this, and I agree. They are talking about what a Haitian sorcerer (a bokor) would call magie (ma-jie), which is not Anglo High Magick and it's mind mysticism magic-k. per se . That stuff os cool,but comes out of the ancient mystery schools, and which is not the down and dirty Alexandrian sorcery of the PGM that give us the grims, per Dr. Skinner.)

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CHAPTER SIX
SPIRITS THAT FINDETH HIDDEN TREASURE
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Those who have read Pacts with the Devil are familiar with the ancient tradition of “making deals” with supernatural intelligences for protection and help. This was also part of the ritual process that we engaged in, and, even after the formal operations ceased, we both experienced windfalls just when we needed them. Dr. Hyatt experienced unusual “luck” on the precious metals market, and I received an unexpected inheritance that relieves me of monetary concerns for years to come.

For those who argue that this may all have been delusion and that magic had nothing to do with the events that followed, I can only say that I have given only the barest outline of the events. Further, Dr. Hyatt is a trained scientific observer and an expert statistician and his considered opinion was that the events following the ceremonies represented such a change in the current of events that it pushed well beyond “coincidence.”

As a final addendum in this section of personal “wonder stories,” I include one that, while not involving Voodoo per se, relates to one of the most important subjects in any tradition of magic: the existence or non-existence of spirits.
Around 1985, I was contacted by a friend of mine who had recently purchased a large Victorian gothic style house in Ontario, California. He had been a practitioner of Wicca for many years. He also belonged to the same Crowley group of which I was a member.
The house he purchased was built in 1889, and was one of the oldest in the Ontario community. It had a huge tree-lined circular drive, a beautiful view of the mountains—and a poltergeist.

His wife had been complaining of shadows on the wall—shadows with no people attached to them. Doors opened and closed by themselves, lights turned themselves on and off and something made at least one attempt to hang the cat. In addition to all of this, the animals (a basset hound, two cats and a cockatiel) would follow the movements of something invisible, all the while growling and hissing.
On coming home from work, he began to observe these things himself. He asked me to spend a weekend at the house to see if together we could at least talk to the thing, and perhaps, get rid of it. (There is a common theory that poltergeists are caused by disturbed adolescents but there were no children in the house.)

When I entered the house, my friend was still at work, and his wife showed me around. It was huge, with enormous ceilings. I immediately had a sense of being watched from a corner of the dining room ceiling, but, since I was being invited into a “haunted house” I dismissed this as suggestion.

My friend had told me that the center of activity was in the unfinished second story, so his wife took me up and unlocked the door. The windows had no curtains and the room was warm and brightly lit. I immediately felt that intense “buzzing” that I described earlier as “vibrations.” I turned and said, “there’s something in the far corner.” At that moment a loud explosion sounded in the wall. This was one of those “rappings” that are famous in situations like this, and that, unfortunately, have also been a staple of fraudulent seance rooms. However, the genuine article has been recorded many times and examined in the laboratory. It does not have the same pattern as noise produced by striking one object with another, but the sound appears to be produced from within the solid itself, as though its very fabric were being manipulated. Thus the bizarre explosive or electronic quality to the “raps.”

I thought this was just wonderful, so I said, “Please do that again.”

It did. In the next moment I felt an impact by my right foot as though someone had slammed a blacksmith’s mallet close to my toe. We returned quickly downstairs.

When my friend arrived a couple of hours later, I told him what I had seen and we both went upstairs to cast a traditional magic circle of protection. When all three of us were inside, the circle was sealed with prayers of protection and marked with a ritual sword in the medieval European fashion. By this time it was after dark, and there were two candles outside the circle as well as one inside to read by. We also had a tape recorder—in case of unusual sounds.

Soon after reading an invocation to command the spirit’s presence, we all felt those “vibrations” and the flames of the two candles outside the circle began flaring up and then almost dying out. The windows had been nailed shut and no one felt a breeze.
Then we heard footsteps stomping up the front steps onto the wooden porch and kicking the front doors open. This was done with such force that it shook the house. The animals downstairs went wild.

I asked if they had locked the front doors, and they assured me they had. We sat in the circle, listening to the downstairs apparently being torn apart. We heard a sofa being thrown across the room, tables being overturned, and weirdest of all, a heavy door slamming just below us, shaking the floor. This in an archway where there hadn’t been a door for over twenty years.
We repeated the magical invocation to control the spirit and demanded that it appear before us. It appeared above us instead. As the space we were in was only partly finished, there was no ceiling,—only the raw boards of the roof. Our attention was drawn upwards. From the roof over our heads came the sound of footsteps of a very large individual. As we watched and listened, we saw each individual board bend under the “footsteps.”

When our companion decided that we had been duly impressed—and we had—the footsteps ceased. The attic area was still filled with a sense of presence. We quietly and politely asked that “it” cease annoying my friend’s wife and attempting to hang the cat. We invited it to communicate with us if it had anything to say, retired downstairs and set up a Ouija board on the dining room table. It responded immediately and implied that it was a young daughter of the original builder of the house. Unfortunately my friend’s wife began interfering in the process by creating a rather childish story of a woman who lost her baby and had been searching for it ever since. I asked her to stop feeding the spirit with her personal fantasies, but by this time, the ghost had found its patsy, and the operation was contaminated. In some annoyance, I ended the proceedings.

As a result of this, the phenomena almost completely ceased until about two weeks before my friend and his wife vacated the house. A search of the Ontario Hall of Records revealed that the builder of the house did indeed have a daughter and she had died in confinement in the house. She had developed severe dementia praecox—the old name for schizophrenia.

As a final note, when we returned downstairs to examine the damage, we found all the animals hiding in the darkest corners—but not a thing had been touched or moved.

 

[Aeternus]

I don't mean to make this into a moral debate about whether it's right or wrong to force someone else into an initiation that they aren't ready for. In fact, I mean to sidestep that entire discussion right away by framing it this way instead: consider that, once one has themselves become "initiated" and perhaps even spent a little time as a "journeyman" own their own path, there is a quality about you that others will unconsciously react to in your presence that can automatically trigger "synchronicity" for them and thus "initiate" them into something whether you actually meant for this to occur or not.

But supposing that you did actually have the conscious intention of directly "stimulating" the sorts of experiences that can generate synchronicity for other people, how would you do it? Assuming you have common sense, and we're not talking about transgressing anyone's obvious personal boundaries, what I'm asking is, how would you create a "space" for synchronicity to occur on its own if it wants to, around yourself, and intensify this kind of "aura" if you will, to the point that it becomes really quire powerful and sets off all kinds of "initiatory" experiences for people when you turn it up?

After recently watching a series called "Hellier", which is literally about this (I highly recommend watching it, it's free on youtube), I was introduced to three ideas that kind of break this down into almost a science. In one episode they make a reference to a book that talks about applying anthropological ideas to the paranormal in order to derive these three qualities that come up over and over and over again in relation to paranormal experiences. The three qualities that are most often connected with or associated with the experience of paranormal events or synchronicity, are places, things, ideas, people, events, and so forth that we consider either "liminal", "marginalized", or "unstructured".

Liminal just means "in-between", so things that are unfinished or connecting to points or crossroads or places with lots of movement, or caves, rivers, mountains, high up places, secret passages, etc. But also events that never seem to finish, like a journey that hits a dead end and feels unfinished, left open, like something more was meant to happen, something urging you to keep going but you're not sure where. Or people that have that kind of quality to them, giving you half-truths, hints, signs, something you can't ignore, but not enough to understand what it means.

Marginalized means things that are pushed out, blocked out, ignored, mistreated, abused, scorned, hated, banned, forbidden, taboo, criminal, heretical, blasphemous, and so forth. All the things that people consider "trouble" and want "nothing to do with". It doesn't matter why. There's always reasons. There's always currents that people are aligned with and there's the strong currents and the weak currents. This applies to everything just as much as the idea of liminality, there's marginalized people, places, events, things, ideas, and you name it, the list could potentially include everything you could ever think of at one point in time to a certain person or group of people.

And then there's the "unstructured". This is just pure chaos, the unknown, the unpredicted, the unexpected, the uncontrollable, the destructive, the disruptive, the revolutionary, when things get "out of control", when "there's nothing we can do at this point", and we are basically feeling completely helpless or swept up, swept away even. Things are just completely overwhelming, it's just psychological overload, too much information, too much of whatever it is, your just cannot take it. You cannot control yourself in the presence of this uncontrollable energy, whatever it is. The disruption it causes completely disrupts you. Again, this could be a thing, a place, a person, an event, an idea, whatever.

It doesn't just make a lot of sense to me, it absolutely aligns with my own personal experiences, what got me into this, and how I continue to remain engaged with what I am doing day to day when I do my rites and ceremonies. It's almost like these three concepts are literally salt, spice, and sugar. They are the three "magical ingredients" that really activate the recipe. But how do you conceptualize all of this? What's your take on the whole process of "initiation"? Do you think it requires ceremonies and formalities? Does it have to be a deliberate "ritual"? Or could it more organic for some people, something that you just feel "called" to and make a decision to either engage with or ignore, and then somehow it just "happens" to those people?

Initiation to me is something that can be taken both as a feeling / calling from a said entity or its current as well as something that would require a ritual, albeit not complex... it can be as simple as meditating on a wish, channeled sigil of your desire to learn more, etc as the ritual is both a spiritual act as well as a psychological framework that attunes one's energies to a specific entity and / or its energetic current.

Complexity of rituals can matter at times, like in the case of Solomonic magic for example (robes, the protective circles, times for consecrating the sigils, etc.), but even there, if there is lack of feeling / attunment, the results are null at best.

In my point of view initiation should be, like you've said; done in an ethical way without coercing someone to learn more about the arts. Let them feel the thing and if they desire to learn more, that desire is what means that they did the first step in answering the call.

Structure is important in magical initiation as it can help beginners, hence the word "initiation" to learn things in a safer way. There is often the problem of beginners having the lack of structure and not knowing what suits them and they tend to often jump into various magical systems and practices and this can prove as being a huge screw-up due to the danger of not knowing one thing or the other well. The property of structure is important in magic in the sense of the elements as well:

We have the four main elements in Western framework: Water, Fire, Air, Earth. Earth is what represents the principle of Balance and Structure. Without it, the Fire can't be hold. Fire represents power, the spark of life, the passion, will and action. So, it is reasonable to assume that if one cannot control / have structure in his passion for learning and desire to be initiated, one cannot hold the power that truly awaits.

One also needs to understand that the feeling of liminal space or a journey that never ends is something that will philosophically occur at times and it is also reasonable to happen in such a way: The occult is a continuous space of learning just as the Universe is infinite and without end. It's the principle of Was, Is and Is Going To Be.

As for the last part with gatekeeping, well... I don't think gatekeeping, unless with grounded and founded logical explanations is ever going to work. Have you told a child simply: "I told you not to do this" but never have provided the logical ground for the "why?" the said child shouldn't have done the bad behavior? That's the same in occultism. Gatekeeping without a grounded, sane and logical explanation (like avoid advanced meditations without having practiced the beginner ones as power needs to be cultivated / ask questions in order to not be prone to delusions as a beginner, etc.) will make the freshly initiated to do a screw-up by either reaching to advanced levels of knowledge without having to study the beginner level or worse, be prone to their delusions instead of asking questions and verifying even from 20 sources let's say... the information / gnosis they receive.

 

[MorganBlack]

This rides on the coattails of the commit confusion between sorcery vs. High MagicK, and where they each work or live. There are multiple, distinct domains of initiation being mashed together into one word.

The first form of initiation is symbolic & lodge based. It works through the symbols, sacred geometry, and group mind (egregore) of an Order. This is the Rosicrucian method that formed the foundation of the Golden Dawn and the Western High MagicK traditions that followed.

The second type of initiation is spirit-conferred & ecology based. Spirit initiations form the foundation of much older, shamanic systems.

Gordon White speaking to the older animist approach. and the good Frater below speaking the later symbolic systems.


Can You Self Initiate? (Yes, But..)

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I am a big fan of White’s articulation, which I am much in sympathy with. Victorian High MagicK (and its many offspring) tries to build an impenetrable fortress on top of a rigid hierarchy. White draws on Castaneda, animism, and deep history and views the magician as an opportunistic, fluid operator. Like, rock on!

He often draws on Castaneda’s perhaps rather apocryphal concept of "impeccability" (impecabilidad) which leads directly to what Don Juan Matus called invulnerability or invincibility, and Gordon incorporates this warrior-shamanic framework into his books. He cites in one of his book Castaneda's Don Juan: "A warrior doesn't care about meanings - a warrior acts."

The animist model of initiation is conferred by the spirits themselves, who can also decide to test or reject you. I will flatten this a litle, and say you can't just "self-initiate" into systems where the spirits don't exist locally, or haven't acknowledged you. I was born in the spirit ecology of the Caribbean and the wider Gulf of Mexico, so those spirits are just around where I was born and lived - they are woven into everyday life here for many of us.

I can't just self-initiate into the Rites of Odin. For one, I don't really believe in him - and two, what is this "winter" you people talk about?

That said, for us they are always around , so if you ever meet me in person, they might decide they like you too. But that is not up to me. There are formal agreements which they will honor, so in essence, when you get initiated in Vodou that ancestral line becomes part of yours. But here the stories and lore do not work as Hermetic / Platonic symbols - they are teaching stories, what "actions" (dharma? not a good word here that is not already corrupted) that they convey in the world, and their likes and dislikes.

From Hyatt and Black again:

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CHAPTER FIFTEEN
INITIATION & SELF-INITIATION
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The authors of this book have both been initiated into a number of esoteric groups which claim to practice magic. Both of us have experimented within these groups and observed their traditions. We found much of what is practiced there is an amalgam of many other traditions. Simply put, neither Mr. Black nor Dr. Hyatt have ever been initiated into a Wicca group, (thank God) yet we practice rituals which are similar to Wicca in our own work.

A prime example of an amalgam is the Hermetic Order Of The Golden Dawn which is regarded by some as the pinnacle of Western Esoteric Magic.

The first question to consider: is the Golden Dawn an original system—a thing in itself? The answer is “no.” It, too, is an amalgam of numerous traditions, including Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Hebrew, and Christian.

The followers of the Golden Dawn attempt to defend it against the claim of being an amalgam of other traditions and systems by invoking its jewel, Enochiana, which was “channeled” by Mr. Kelly to Dr. Dee. This notion in and of itself is open to numerous questions and has been a topic of heated debate for many decades.

Regardless of the authenticity of the Enochian system, the entire history of the Golden Dawn is filled with forgery and fraud. This is true for many other systems as well. Entire books have been written from falsified papers, channeled “secrets” and by false prophets.

Even today many of the heads of various Golden Dawn Temples claim that they are the only legitimate “heirs.” Of what one may ask? An illegitimate Order to begin with? However, with all this aside, the Golden Dawn itself is a workable system. If used properly it can help a student learn magic and aid him in his spiritual and personal development.

I have known hundreds of people who have been initiated into the Golden Dawn system. The authenticity of each initiation can be questioned because, as stated above, the origins of the Golden Dawn itself are questionable. More important than the “papers” each person holds are the results he or she has obtained. On this topic we have much less information.

If the Golden Dawn survives another few hundred years, new wonder stories will be created and the actual history will be ignored, much as the history of the Catholic Church is ignored. The same thing has happened with other forms of Christianity. Luther’s illumination is sufficient as the inspirational component, and time has done the rest to make it legitimate. Often the proof of legitimacy—other than power and violence—is how long something has survived. The longer something has been around and is still functional, the more legitimate and holy it becomes. Our short life span makes it easy to fool us into believing things that are false. This is the major purpose of history—to time-bind events for the future from the perspective of the historian.

The question remains: are those individuals “formally” initiated into the Golden Dawn any better at what they do than someone who has practiced the work and forgone the initiation? In this context the term “better” simply means “effective.” We do not have an answer. We doubt that they are any “worse.” But there is no doubt that some believe that without the link to the hidden masters—given in practice by pompous fools—the magic of the uninitiated is either evil or impotent.

Initiation implies a link with the etheric forces of an Order which is supposed to provide power and protection from otherwise dangerous forces. This is based on the assumption that the forces will recognize you if you possess the link. If the link is missing it is assumed that the practitioner, no matter how powerful, can get himself into trouble and is regarded as inauthentic, heretic and an outsider. Often the real purpose of initiation is to get the individual to believe in the wonder stories about the organization. It is often used just as it is in Christianity—as indoctrination. Step by step, grade by grade, in theory you are becoming more powerful, but ironically less dangerous to the Order’s hierarchical structure.

There is no doubt that mistakes can be avoided by following the tried and true path. There is also no doubt that rarely is anything new or better created by following the tried and true path. The etheric question is one issue that can’t easily be glossed over. Israel Regardie, one of the foremost experts in the field, felt that a properly done self-initiation was an adequate alternative to initiation by a group of individuals who had the “proper papers.” Why?

Regardie said:

In stating that the isolated student could now be his own initiator, one important phrase is rendered imperative. And that is he must be persistent and as thoroughgoing and exacting as if he were an initiator in a regularly constituted Golden Dawn temple under the constant scrutiny of officialdom and higher adept authorities. The responsibility for progress is thus placed inexorably on the student or candidate himself. As I see it—and I have watched this on a very few students—each elemental initiation or Watchtower ceremony requires its repetition several times. One student whom I am thinking of at this juncture has performed the whole…ceremonies some 50 or 60 times. It is therefore my opinion that she has initiated herself as effectively and as positively as any temple initiatory hierophantic team could possibly do.

- The Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic, Falcon Press, Phoenix, AZ: 1984, Vol. 1, p. 9.

The need for legitimacy is reflected in the maneuvers the founders of the Golden Dawn went through to create for themselves the correct papers to substantiate their wonder stories. (See What You Should Know About the Golden Dawn, Falcon Press, Tempe, AZ: 1993).

Dr. Regardie had another point regarding self-initiation. He felt that some people are “called” to certain traditions. This can happen by “accident”, or through a dream, a vision, a possession or an array of other “coincidences.” In Regardie’s discussion of self-initiation into the Neophyte grade of the Golden Regardie’s discussion of self-initiation into the Neophyte grade of the Golden Dawn he concluded that,

…initiation outside of a regularly constituted Temple was only possible with two students. They would have to prove to themselves—not to anyone else—that they were wholly devoted to the Great Work, devoted enough to spend at least several months jointly or individually practising the Middle Pillar…

Dr. Regardie continues on by emphasizing,

…If this practice were assiduous and intense both students would have awakened in themselves the psycho-spiritual energy that could not only hasten their own inner development but that the latter could be communicated to yet another in a manner not too dissimilar to that described in Z–

 

[Aeternus]

This rides on the coattails of the commit confusion between sorcery vs. High MagicK, and where they each work or live. There are multiple, distinct domains of initiation being mashed together into one word.

The first form of initiation is symbolic & lodge based. It works through the symbols, sacred geometry, and group mind (egregore) of an Order. This is the Rosicrucian method that formed the foundation of the Golden Dawn and the Western High MagicK traditions that followed.

The second type of initiation is spirit-conferred & ecology based. Spirit initiations form the foundation of much older, shamanic systems.

Gordon White speaking to the older animist approach. and the good Frater below speaking the later symbolic systems.


Can You Self Initiate? (Yes, But..)

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The Rosicrucian Science of Initiation

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I am a big fan of White’s articulation, which I am much in sympathy with. Victorian High MagicK (and its many offspring) tries to build an impenetrable fortress on top of a rigid hierarchy. White draws on Castaneda, animism, and deep history and views the magician as an opportunistic, fluid operator. Like, rock on!

He often draws on Castaneda’s perhaps rather apocryphal concept of "impeccability" (impecabilidad) which leads directly to what Don Juan Matus called invulnerability or invincibility, and Gordon incorporates this warrior-shamanic framework into his books. He cites in one of his book Castaneda's Don Juan: "A warrior doesn't care about meanings - a warrior acts."

The animist model of initiation is conferred by the spirits themselves, who can also decide to test or reject you. I will flatten this a litle, and say you can't just "self-initiate" into systems where the spirits don't exist locally, or haven't acknowledged you. I was born in the spirit ecology of the Caribbean and the wider Gulf of Mexico, so those spirits are just around where I was born and lived - they are woven into everyday life here for many of us.

I can't just self-initiate into the Rites of Odin. For one, I don't really believe in him - and two, what is this "winter" you people talk about?

That said, for us they are always around , so if you ever meet me in person, they might decide they like you too. But that is not up to me. There are formal agreements which they will honor, so in essence, when you get initiated in Vodou that ancestral line becomes part of yours. But here the stories and lore do not work as Hermetic / Platonic symbols - they are teaching stories, what "actions" (dharma? not a good word here that is not already corrupted) that they convey in the world, and their likes and dislikes.

From Hyatt and Black again:

------------------------------
CHAPTER FIFTEEN
INITIATION & SELF-INITIATION
--------------------------------------

The authors of this book have both been initiated into a number of esoteric groups which claim to practice magic. Both of us have experimented within these groups and observed their traditions. We found much of what is practiced there is an amalgam of many other traditions. Simply put, neither Mr. Black nor Dr. Hyatt have ever been initiated into a Wicca group, (thank God) yet we practice rituals which are similar to Wicca in our own work.

A prime example of an amalgam is the Hermetic Order Of The Golden Dawn which is regarded by some as the pinnacle of Western Esoteric Magic.

The first question to consider: is the Golden Dawn an original system—a thing in itself? The answer is “no.” It, too, is an amalgam of numerous traditions, including Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Hebrew, and Christian.

The followers of the Golden Dawn attempt to defend it against the claim of being an amalgam of other traditions and systems by invoking its jewel, Enochiana, which was “channeled” by Mr. Kelly to Dr. Dee. This notion in and of itself is open to numerous questions and has been a topic of heated debate for many decades.

Regardless of the authenticity of the Enochian system, the entire history of the Golden Dawn is filled with forgery and fraud. This is true for many other systems as well. Entire books have been written from falsified papers, channeled “secrets” and by false prophets.

Even today many of the heads of various Golden Dawn Temples claim that they are the only legitimate “heirs.” Of what one may ask? An illegitimate Order to begin with? However, with all this aside, the Golden Dawn itself is a workable system. If used properly it can help a student learn magic and aid him in his spiritual and personal development.

I have known hundreds of people who have been initiated into the Golden Dawn system. The authenticity of each initiation can be questioned because, as stated above, the origins of the Golden Dawn itself are questionable. More important than the “papers” each person holds are the results he or she has obtained. On this topic we have much less information.

If the Golden Dawn survives another few hundred years, new wonder stories will be created and the actual history will be ignored, much as the history of the Catholic Church is ignored. The same thing has happened with other forms of Christianity. Luther’s illumination is sufficient as the inspirational component, and time has done the rest to make it legitimate. Often the proof of legitimacy—other than power and violence—is how long something has survived. The longer something has been around and is still functional, the more legitimate and holy it becomes. Our short life span makes it easy to fool us into believing things that are false. This is the major purpose of history—to time-bind events for the future from the perspective of the historian.

The question remains: are those individuals “formally” initiated into the Golden Dawn any better at what they do than someone who has practiced the work and forgone the initiation? In this context the term “better” simply means “effective.” We do not have an answer. We doubt that they are any “worse.” But there is no doubt that some believe that without the link to the hidden masters—given in practice by pompous fools—the magic of the uninitiated is either evil or impotent.

Initiation implies a link with the etheric forces of an Order which is supposed to provide power and protection from otherwise dangerous forces. This is based on the assumption that the forces will recognize you if you possess the link. If the link is missing it is assumed that the practitioner, no matter how powerful, can get himself into trouble and is regarded as inauthentic, heretic and an outsider. Often the real purpose of initiation is to get the individual to believe in the wonder stories about the organization. It is often used just as it is in Christianity—as indoctrination. Step by step, grade by grade, in theory you are becoming more powerful, but ironically less dangerous to the Order’s hierarchical structure.

There is no doubt that mistakes can be avoided by following the tried and true path. There is also no doubt that rarely is anything new or better created by following the tried and true path. The etheric question is one issue that can’t easily be glossed over. Israel Regardie, one of the foremost experts in the field, felt that a properly done self-initiation was an adequate alternative to initiation by a group of individuals who had the “proper papers.” Why?

Regardie said:

In stating that the isolated student could now be his own initiator, one important phrase is rendered imperative. And that is he must be persistent and as thoroughgoing and exacting as if he were an initiator in a regularly constituted Golden Dawn temple under the constant scrutiny of officialdom and higher adept authorities. The responsibility for progress is thus placed inexorably on the student or candidate himself. As I see it—and I have watched this on a very few students—each elemental initiation or Watchtower ceremony requires its repetition several times. One student whom I am thinking of at this juncture has performed the whole…ceremonies some 50 or 60 times. It is therefore my opinion that she has initiated herself as effectively and as positively as any temple initiatory hierophantic team could possibly do.

- The Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic, Falcon Press, Phoenix, AZ: 1984, Vol. 1, p. 9.

The need for legitimacy is reflected in the maneuvers the founders of the Golden Dawn went through to create for themselves the correct papers to substantiate their wonder stories. (See What You Should Know About the Golden Dawn, Falcon Press, Tempe, AZ: 1993).

Dr. Regardie had another point regarding self-initiation. He felt that some people are “called” to certain traditions. This can happen by “accident”, or through a dream, a vision, a possession or an array of other “coincidences.” In Regardie’s discussion of self-initiation into the Neophyte grade of the Golden Regardie’s discussion of self-initiation into the Neophyte grade of the Golden Dawn he concluded that,

…initiation outside of a regularly constituted Temple was only possible with two students. They would have to prove to themselves—not to anyone else—that they were wholly devoted to the Great Work, devoted enough to spend at least several months jointly or individually practising the Middle Pillar…

Dr. Regardie continues on by emphasizing,

…If this practice were assiduous and intense both students would have awakened in themselves the psycho-spiritual energy that could not only hasten their own inner development but that the latter could be communicated to yet another in a manner not too dissimilar to that described in Z–

Thank you for this lengthy reply first and foremost, it's really insightful as in terms of the traditions that I mentioned.

Let me break down some things:

There has always been confusion in terms of sorcery vs. High MagicK, but I must say that if one looks deeper into the essence of things, they can see that sorcery relates to low magick though I would personally opt for Mageia. In the Ancient Greek thinking, MagicK had the following classifications: Goêteia, low magic / sorcery, associated with charlatans (talking about the legendary "snake oil") and lamenting for the dead, Mageia, general magic which was derived from the magoi, the Zoroastrian priests of Persia, in which foreign wisdom like astrology, general wisdom and such were to be learned and then comes Theurgy (Theourgia). I have to agree with you on this, the term is heavily adapted later by Neoplatonic philosophers (like Iamblichus and Proclus). The term translates to "working of the gods" or "divine-working". It meant all the pious, higher and elite forms of ritual that are meant to ascend the soul and drown down divine presence.

Depending on the working intended, one may need initiation and some may not. Though, as a slightly referencing response to Mr. Gordon White's video, I would say that most people would need to have an initiation of some kind. Either by stepping into the current of the spirit by those "coincidences", that means the spirit is calling for the said person and later on the said person may find more information about the said spirit, or unfortunately not if they are still stuck in the "coincidence" paradigm... and the other method is to step into initiation procedures from well-defined systems in order to let the spirits know you.

For the elemental tradition, if we exclude the lodge idea, the paradigm can still be applied in terms of self-initiation as well. Returning to the idea in my post a little:

We have the four main elements in Western framework: Water, Fire, Air, Earth. Earth is what represents the principle of Balance and Structure. Without it, the Fire can't be hold. Fire represents power, the spark of life, the passion, will and action. So, it is reasonable to assume that if one cannot control / have structure in his passion for learning and desire to be initiated, one cannot hold the power that truly awaits.

In his dialogue Timaeus Plato attributed the geometric cube to the Earth element as representing physical structure and spatial solidity. Aristotle followed by defining Earth as the element of a heavy, downward-seeking nature that anchors the orderly center of the cosmos.

The dialogue matches with what I have said as to the principle of structure. If you do not have the structure necessary to withhold the power, passion and will and action as well as power (Fire, which is described as representing those qualities in Plato's dialogue, Timaeus again). It is a reasonable conclusion that if one succumbs to the rather feral and raw impulse of Fire without having proper training that they can burn themselves, thing which has been encountered in several "gone wrong" ritual accounts.

In Ancient Greek thought, again, besides the hierarchical classifications of Magic, we also have types of magic, depending on the need to practice:

1. Katadesmoi (Binding Curses / Defixiones): Malevolent and competitive rituals inscribed on tablets and buried in graves, wells and sanctuaries with a specific aim, at the time, to immobilize or bind individuals in law courts, athletic competitions, commerce or politics. Practically, all those modern "hexes" and "binding by the thread" we see, of course different forms, but the same core of Katadesmoi is applied.
2. Pharmaka (Drugs, Poisons, and Potions): It implies the use of herbal substances, enhancing drugs, deadly poisons or even love potions (philtra) in order to manipulate bodies, minds and affections. This one can relate to the modern equivalent of Herbalism and the Folk Magick recipes that involve the use of various herbs for finding your loved one, or breaking up a couple, or various healings as well as curses.
3. Philtra (Love Magic): As told at point no 2; it implies the usage and casting of spells meant to incite obsession (erôs) or lasting affection / obsession (phillia), often by the use of sympathetic magic, figurines and planetary invocation. In the Western classification this is called as "Red Magic".
4. Periapta / Amulets (Protective Magic): Charms worn or placed in homes divided into talismans (to bring good luck) and phylacteries (to ward off evil spirits, disease, or the "evil eye"). Kind of what we also have today in various occult books that tell you how to remove and defend yourself and loved ones from the evil eye.
5. Necromancy (Nekyia / Divination via the Dead): Secret rituals invoking the restless dead or underworld spirits (aōroi or biaiothanatoi) at chthonic sites, fissures, or shrines (such as the Necromanteion) to secure prophecies.

Considering such various uses of magic, I think that guided initiation in my opinion would be a good form of initiation, or as it is also called "Structured initiation". Imagine following the method of self-initiation and, without having the necessary guidance, no matter how much you exposed your energy to spirits or entities of the tradition you felt connected with, you decide to practice Philtra, and do so in such a way that you stupidly invoke lust (philia) into your girlfriend or boyfriend, or ended up breaking a couple because you followed the raw impulse (Fire) without structure (Earth). Or how about self-initialized X or Y decides to do something from the sphere of the Pharmaka that can literally get a person killed or his affections worsened? That in my opinion speaks for itself as to why guidance is necessary.

Now, as you have pointed out... it remains logical to ask the question as to how to seek this guidance. Should you seek it internally, or with your spirit guides, or externally (from other sources).

If one sticks to the first method (internal seeking), it can be helpful if... again... the self-initialized individual has the structure to discern truth from illusion, which is by far to master even after years of being in a spiritual practice, let alone in the fresh unripe era of self-initialization.

The second method is much better (seeking guidance / gnosis from spirit guides), as Spirits of the said tradition you are in are like the heart of it, they know everything needed to be told. Again, the principle of structure and discerning truth from illusion applies and it is hard to master like I've said but... the risk is slightly reduced if one follows the adequate spirit contacting methods (thousand years old defined meditations, sigils and mantras).

The third method (externally), can prove as the best feat for seeking the necessary guidance / gnosis you desire especially in the first period following the self-initialization but, there needs to be a "taking with a pinch of salt" method applied almost every time, especially in today's times with various phony practicioners or dangerous cult leaders. Correctly Applying the second method (seeking confirmation with spirit guides) should do the trick into eliminating any doubts and help finding the necessary information needed.

To conclude, I think that self-initialization can be done (as in of course, without any lodge) but there still needs to be some structured applied to it. Whether we talk about the Golden Dawn system which, like Dr. Regardie said, "is workable or any other initiating systems... that doesn't mean that I will pay huge fees to an order (legitimate or not), but... I apply the structure for my own benefit and... to keep on topic with O.P.'s post; I apply it to the benefit of other people as well. Without structure, it would be like what Mr. Gordon White said: "take that ouija board into the mental asylum and contact the spirits", or as I would like to put it: a total screw-up.