Is dealing with Andras for the first time in goetia suicidal? I think it obviously looks like, but maybe someone has something to tell.

[lunaticloverMMXIV]

 

[A.Nox]

Andras is not dangerous by default. The real question is whether you have enough control to direct what he amplifies.
He is precise — and unforgiving toward lack of control.

 

[Lucien6493]

Andras is not dangerous by default. The real question is whether you have enough control to direct what he amplifies.
He is precise — and unforgiving toward lack of control.

Care to elaborate on that a bit? A few pages of scintillating analysis will do for now. A dissertation would be ideal, but it's only Monday. I suspect that there is more to this feathered fiend than his resume would indicate. I mean, "kill or be killed" is hardly an incentive even, or perhaps especially not then if you have the kind of temper that slips out sideways and makes Andras want to unionize, modern day squeamishness aside.

If I wanted to take the literal (psychologizing) approach to his characterization then he is the breaker of alliances that were never real, the eruption of suppressed hostility, the exposure of incoherent motives, the archetype of misrule that reveals the truth of a system and the termination of politics as we know it, never mind social discourse in polite society. In other words, he is a destabilizing force within the operator. So, you are saying he is "safe" so long as you are going after a controlled demolition? In modern application, I would agree with that, but in the context of the time period within which he first appears I suspect that we are dealing with a deliberate blind because his actual function would have been extremely valuable, sought after, and of such a nature as would make secrecy well worth the trouble. I would look to his orthography, which strikes me as decidedly alchemical cipher -- wolf, sword, head of a raven -- for clues.

Sorry, not about to test out that theory. He has been hanging about my inner temple periphery like a Hells Angels prospect at a wedding reception and that is as far as he is going to get, for now.

 

[A.Nox]

Care to elaborate on that a bit? A few pages of scintillating analysis will do for now. A dissertation would be ideal, but it's only Monday. I suspect that there is more to this feathered fiend than his resume would indicate. I mean, "kill or be killed" is hardly an incentive even, or perhaps especially not then if you have the kind of temper that slips out sideways and makes Andras want to unionize, modern day squeamishness aside.

If I wanted to take the literal (psychologizing) approach to his characterization then he is the breaker of alliances that were never real, the eruption of suppressed hostility, the exposure of incoherent motives, the archetype of misrule that reveals the truth of a system and the termination of politics as we know it, never mind social discourse in polite society. In other words, he is a destabilizing force within the operator. So, you are saying he is "safe" so long as you are going after a controlled demolition? In modern application, I would agree with that, but in the context of the time period within which he first appears I suspect that we are dealing with a deliberate blind because his actual function would have been extremely valuable, sought after, and of such a nature as would make secrecy well worth the trouble. I would look to his orthography, which strikes me as decidedly alchemical cipher -- wolf, sword, head of a raven -- for clues.

Sorry, not about to test out that theory. He has been hanging about my inner temple periphery like a Hells

Fair read. But the internal / external split is kinda artificial imo.
Andras doesnt destabilize the operator or the structure. He finds load- bearing fractures — wherever they are — and applies pressure. Operator is often just the nearest one.
- Controlled demolition- only works if you can name the target AND hold position while it comes down. Most cant do either. Thats where the old warning comes from. Not malice. Load transfer.
Your instinct to keep him at the periphery is sound tho. He doesnt negotiate well with ambivalence.

Personally I prefer him over the “easier” ones. Hot, chaotic spirits burn through whatever you bring them — your intent included. Andras is cold. He resonates with what you actually are, not what youre projecting. Easier to work with someone precise than someone loud

 

[Lucien6493]

Fair read. But the internal / external split is kinda artificial imo.
Andras doesnt destabilize the operator or the structure. He finds load- bearing fractures — wherever they are — and applies pressure. Operator is often just the nearest one.
- Controlled demolition- only works if you can name the target AND hold position while it comes down. Most cant do either. Thats where the old warning comes from. Not malice. Load transfer.
Your instinct to keep him at the periphery is sound tho. He doesnt negotiate well with ambivalence.

Personally I prefer him over the “easier” ones. Hot, chaotic spirits burn through whatever you bring them — your intent included. Andras is cold. He resonates with what you actually are, not what youre projecting. Easier to work with someone precise than someone loud

Saturnine then. The Nigredo (head of the crow) and the Gray Wolf of Antimony as his mount. The body of a man. The sword of separation. So Andras is who you might call upon to reveal to you certain secrets of the Great Work. I can go with that, especially if you put it in terms of load-bearing structure, which has maximal ambiguity and ambivalence pretty much built in, as does ATU XIII (Death) as opposed to say ATU XVI (The Tower). Perhaps then a Spirit of Nun, between Victory and Beauty.

 

[A.Nox]

Saturnine then. The Nigredo (head of the crow) and the Gray Wolf of Antimony as his mount. The body of a man. The sword of separation. So Andras is who you might call upon to reveal to you certain secrets of the Great Work. I can go with that, especially if you put it in terms of load-bearing structure, which has maximal ambiguity and ambivalence pretty much built in, as does ATU XIII (Death) as opposed to say ATU XVI (The Tower). Perhaps then a Spirit of Nun, between Victory and Beauty.

Saturnine fits. Nigredo even better — thats the function not just the iconography.
He doesnt destroy he decomposes. The distinction matters operationally.Nun between Netzach and Tiphareth is a sharp read. Path of Death between Victory and Beauty — passage through dissolution into something more refined.
Andras as the corridor not the destination — that lines up with what I see in practice: he leaves you with less, but what stays is structurally sound.The Tower comparison is the right cut. It removes without asking.
Andras does — but then holds you to whatever you answered.

Im curious how far youd push that on the Tree — keep him on Nun or shift it more toward Tzaddi.
Not many people here think in structure , most just collect names.

 

[thepolestar]

Andras is a predator, and could probably be called an apex predator. I can't tell you whether it's dangerous for you to call him or not, but if you are not in a good space mentally, or if you don't know how to banish what you summon, or if you are unfamiliar with Underworld spirits, then he's probably not the right Goetic spirit to call on.

Maybe get introduced to the Goetia through friendlier spirits like Eligos and Bune before literally evoking Andras, the original hitman.

 

[Lucien6493]

Saturnine fits. Nigredo even better — thats the function not just the iconography.
He doesnt destroy he decomposes. The distinction matters operationally.Nun between Netzach and Tiphareth is a sharp read. Path of Death between Victory and Beauty — passage through dissolution into something more refined.
Andras as the corridor not the destination — that lines up with what I see in practice: he leaves you with less, but what stays is structurally sound.The Tower comparison is the right cut. It removes without asking.
Andras does — but then holds you to whatever you answered.

Im curious how far youd push that on the Tree — keep him on Nun or shift it more toward Tzaddi.
Not many people here think in structure , most just collect names.

Actually, Nun is where I would leave him, but maybe not. I evoked him Monday night and Nigredo was initiated, though it is not what I got. It was a clean strike. Incredibly fast. By Tuesday night he had pretty much accomplished what I had asked of him, so if I were to move him about on the tree I would place him in one of three additional positions ( ATU XV, XVIII, and II) but not Tzaddi as I do not see it as in accord with his nature. To put it another way, I would/might call on Andras if I were pathworking Qoph, Ayin, or Gimel, but I don't see him, or any of the other Goetic spirits, as being resident anywhere on the Tree per se.

 

[Ialda Tzabaoth]

Why do you not see goetic spirits as being resident anywhere on the tree?

 

[A.Nox]

Actually, Nun is where I would leave him, but maybe not. I evoked him Monday night and Nigredo was initiated, though it is not what I got. It was a clean strike. Incredibly fast. By Tuesday night he had pretty much accomplished what I had asked of him, so if I were to move him about on the tree I would place him in one of three additional positions ( ATU XV, XVIII, and II) but not Tzaddi as I do not see it as in accord with his nature. To put it another way, I would/might call on Andras if I were pathworking Qoph, Ayin, or Gimel, but I don't see him, or any of the other Goetic spirits, as being resident anywhere on the Tree per se.

Clean strike and speed — that tracks.
The issue is the placement logic.

If you’re mapping XV, XVIII and II from observed outcomes rather than from intrinsic function, then you’re not placing Andras -you’re tracking the system under decomposition.
Useful model but it’s not the same operation.
For me Nun still holds — not as a fixed position, but as a vector. Corridor not endpoint.

Otherwise you end up fitting the Tree to the results instead of using it to predict behavior.

 

[Lucien6493]

Clean strike and speed — that tracks.
The issue is the placement logic.

If you’re mapping XV, XVIII and II from observed outcomes rather than from intrinsic function, then you’re not placing Andras -you’re tracking the system under decomposition.
Useful model but it’s not the same operation.
For me Nun still holds — not as a fixed position, but as a vector. Corridor not endpoint.

Otherwise you end up fitting the Tree to the results instead of using it to predict behavior.

Ummm… no? I’m not trying to place Andras on the Tree at all. I’m looking at that glyph as a map of the vertical axis, representing the lines of force and structural nodes inherent to our own inner nature and to the way the Imaginal Real self‑organizes across the horizontal.

For me, the corridors come first. Whether you label a given line of force with Nun or any other Letter/ATU depends entirely on the classification system you’re using, so that part is secondary. Ergo when I link Andras to Nun/Death, it’s only because the iconographic representation of his function matches the Letter/ATU in that system — not because he has anything to do with Nun or ATU XIII itself. Likewise, when I say Andras works well on the Devil, the High Priestess, or the Moon, I’m not attributing him to anything. I’m just pointing out that his nature flows naturally across those currents when directed to do so by the operator.​

 

[A.Nox]

Ummm… no? I’m not trying to place Andras on the Tree at all. I’m looking at that glyph as a map of the vertical axis, representing the lines of force and structural nodes inherent to our own inner nature and to the way the Imaginal Real self‑organizes across the horizontal.

For me, the corridors come first. Whether you label a given line of force with Nun or any other Letter/ATU depends entirely on the classification system you’re using, so that part is secondary. Ergo when I link Andras to Nun/Death, it’s only because the iconographic representation of his function matches the Letter/ATU in that system — not because he has anything to do with Nun or ATU XIII itself. Likewise, when I say Andras works well on the Devil, the High Priestess, or the Moon, I’m not attributing him to anything. I’m just pointing out that his nature flows naturally across those currents when directed to do so by the operator.​

Note the shift

#8: “I would place him in one of three additional positions (ATU XV, XVIII, and II).”
#11: “I’m not trying to place Andras on the Tree at all.”
Those aren t the same claim.
If you move from placement to a corridor-first model where labels are secondary that’s a different operation than the one you opened with.

And if the ATU correspondences in #8 are derived from observed outcomes in evocation rather than intrinsic function then the underlying issue remains.

Changing the frame doesn’t resolve that distinction — it just relabels it.

 

[MorganBlack]

RE Andras.

I've only conjured him once as part of an experiment in Goetia + Radionics.

It was a stunning yet also horrifying experience I wrote up here:

[Tutorial] - Arbatel Eucharist Radionic work

The following ritual draws upon Draja's Magical Spells of the Minor Prophets where you present an object to the six directions, the Arbatel Grimoires and a bit of "revamping" to make it accessible and easy to do. Always start from Sunday to Saturday, considered one cycle. After this post I will...

wizardforums.com

I don't "put" him into any symbolic structures. IRL violence, death and mayhem are plenty descriptive enough, and I have plenty enough 'deathy' things around me as it is.

 

[Lucien6493]

To answer the question of the OP, providing they still have hair, I would not recommend anyone to start exploring the Goetia by evoking Andras. It may not be suicidal, but it will likely re-arrange your face. Like I said, he works fast. He acts with precision and you better know exactly what it is that you are asking him to do. The question you should ask is not, is he dangerous, but rather, can you live with the consequences of what he will accomplish within you. Why? Because he is a stress test. If you send him after someone he will go straight to that which ties you to the target. In other words, get ready for a comprehensive audit of your psyche. Your bullshit will fall. If your inner temple is not properly constructed Andras will oblige you by taking it down. As @A.Nox put it: via "Controlled demolition". It is highly educational and it will not happen in a linear, cause-and- effect fashion but backwards and forwards and sideways through time, pulling in the outcomes of adjacent operations. What the Goetia does not say is that the sword of Andras envenomates, causing the heat of structural decay. If I had to attribute an element to him I would say it was Air and I'm not at all sure that he oversees the operation in it's totality. He will initiate, yes, but also leave the trajectory of the operation to its own inner logic based upon what he actually cut. Bear in mind, however, that given his office, he will most likely manifest in a similitude of what he will decompose.

 

[MorganBlack]

The question you should ask is not, is he dangerous, but rather, can you live with the consequences of what he will accomplish within you. Why? Because he is a stress test.

This! Yep yep. We need to talk about this for newcomers. Not just for Andreas but the kind unbalance from seeking power without wisdom. Wrathful workings make it just easier to see when the fluid enters your veins.

Those I know very well. Too much time spent staring into the twin barrels of Death and Mars will change a man from the inside out, and that's just a stone-cold medical fact. (said in the voice of Eugene from the Walking Dead.) It’s not just Andreas. The real hazard of dealing in wrathful sorcery is living on a permanent war footing, and if the field is vast, the more subtle horror is that you eventually become the thing you're fighting. (Damn you, Nietzsche! Much wisdom there.) That's when you step back from the corporate battlefield of undead armies, and the Mech battalions, and really take a long, hard look at your own goddamn self.

Because you wake up one morning and look in the mirror and barely recognize who you were. Your face has grown just a little too hard. Mouth too grim. You're eyes too mean. You have become a fearsome thing of myth and legend, and and can barely relate to everyday humans anymore. You think in term of strategy and advantage, alliances and metrics, and who is a threat. I imagine law enforcement get this way too. Dealing with the worst side of human nature.

Then you look into the future, there is another orc, Nazgul, or Balrog clawing its way through the mud, driven by greed and fear and the search for advantage. Motivated by the need pay their mortgage and keep their kids in a nice school they will one day have a knife to your back, or someone you care about. And another. More and more. That’s when it hits you: You are in Hell. And the worst part. You can’t kill them all. There aren’t enough hours in the day and life is too short.

Personally speaking my choice was to get out of there and do almost anything else. You can’t clean up an entire lower astral plane of shit and banal evil when every single person in the place thinks the shit they accept and are sucking down is really ambrosia - who think that they are the good guys, who their always completely justified no matter how they immiserate others who never did anything to them but to either be profit centers or be in the way of what they want.

Don't get me wrong. There is a place for Mars, and for Saturn. Don't initiate violence, but gG fight some battles. It builds character, but know it's a particular kind of character. But Christ, they burn through your soul like rocket fuel. We cannot afford to lose the quiet virtues. Compassion, kindness, forgiveness, mercy. If we let the forces of Mordor consume those completely , then we’ve already lost. no matter who holds the high ground.