[Help] Is joining the catholic church worth it for protection in the working with infernal spirits?

[MorganBlack]

I think here is the main tonal disagreement I see between the two of us, and I'd be curious to eventually get to the root of it. I'm not at all convinced that light and mind is a necessary link, nor do I necessarily share the opinion that the daimonic maps so cleanly on maleficium... I guess what I am looking for is the same you were proclaiming as necessary: a pluralistic examination of approaches to magic, without immediately collapsing them into categories.

Totally agreed @ahathoor

We are missing an agreed-upon language here. I did not mean to imply the Daimonic is only the Underworld. Nor is it only harmful, but it includes nature, and nature is dangerous.

The Hellenic pagan maps were also cautious here. Nature is vitalistic, but it is also dangerous. Gaia also births monsters.

There are harmful things in the Underworld. I have met them. They are what we could better call "demons," and Vodou calls djabs, or "devils." I do not like to talk about it too much - and only bring it up to say that when "magic" becomes sorcery it is often dealing in this operationally dangerous space, and the Church's classic cautions of dealing with "magic" starts to make much more sense. They are not just being killjoys.

See Hansen here. There is a significant uptick in the rate of cancer among paranormal investigators.

Modern paganism has been highly influential in advocating for a romanticized, nurturing view of Nature and Gaia. Pagans equate Gaia with the "living Earth," and approach her with awe, reverence, and devotion, and as a loving Mother Goddess.

This is a modern narrative that selectively emphasizes the nurturing aspects of Gaia while underplaying or ignoring her more fearsome, chthonic dimensions. Gaia is the mother of many chthonic figures, including the Titans, the Erinyes, and various monsters. Gaia is, according to a more complete classical model, the primordial Earth whose domain includes the chthonic realm, which includes power of the dead (see it as ancestral wisdom in he indedgenous view) but it is also the underworld / Hades, which is seen as inside the Earth, is not the Earth itself.

Although Gnostics see the world as Hell, I do not. In New World sorcery it is understood some of the most dangerous beings are the morts / muertos. In my view there is little line between a "demon" and the shade of a psychotic dead person. You don't suddenly become enlightened once you're dead. In Vodou the dead are considered hot spirits and they are the ones one must be most careful of.

Now, to complicate things - I actually don't believe in ghosts, but I have been Exorcist to a few hauntings. The Underworld / Paranormal level of reality is complex and weird. Just read Hansen here. The Catholic Church's warning against avoiding magic and necomanacy is based around this legitimate concern, and was never meant to be a blanket against 19th -20th century Postive Mind Metaphysics "Magic." (Which is the wrong word here, imho, and just means "magical", like you might see on TV.. like Magic Wipe or Magic BBQ Sauce. )

 

[ahathoor]

Oh I never implied that the Underworld or the Daimonic was "safe" or "good" in any way... I think I agree with every word you just wrote. I guess the way I see it is that if I go to Amsterdam, it's objectively a city of sex trafficking, slavery, murderous gangs, violent or despairing addicts... but it's also where the Van Gogh museum is, and a city of young parents with their children on bikes, and Indonesian food, and Christmas markets. Saying it's a "city of sin" is kind of true but also kind of not.

"Perhaps they meant it, perhaps not. It was impossible to know with these minds, they were so hopelessly flawlessly ambiguous" - Clive Barker

 

[SeekerPS]

(Disclaimer im a novice when it comes to practical magic so please excuse my naivety)

For the most part I operate under a buddhist cosmology where pagan gods and abrahamic entities are devas/spirits trapped in samsara with us with varying degrees of power according to their qualities and liberation status (Zeus for example although powerful within samsara would be an entity consumed with poisonous samsaric influence because of his thirst for power, hedonism, and large ego). These kinds of entities i use for magical workings because buddhist ones are more interested in strictly helping me reach liberation not provide me magical powers or cursing my enemies so this is why I find samsaric entities useful.

Pagan gods i invoke mostly for right hand path workings. Granting me or others wisdom, good luck, blessings in magical workings, harmony, good health, defense from low level spirits etc. But ive also been wanting to incorporate more offensive practices to my arsenal for drastic measures, which infernals/demons would be perfect for or even gleeful to do. Only thing stopping me is the blowback that could happen from working with these entities (obviously some karmic retribution is to be expected and unavoidable, but id rather not have a demon on my ass on top of that). And the pagan gods from what i know aren't really known for their battles against demonic spirits the same way abrahamic entities are.

So to help with this i was thinking about beseeching the infernal's arch-nemesis, Yahweh, Christ, the Angels and the Saints. My question is would this be a good or beneficial plan? My logic tells me that receiving communion regularly or baptism would help me boost my reputation with Yahweh and his entourage would be more likely to aid/protect me. The only issue with this is that from what i know Yahweh is insanely jealous, and i am an idol worshipper who does not believe him to be the only god or the ultimate ground for truth like i do with the buddhist dharmakaya or neoplatonic One. So it might not even be worth it in the end.

(Sorry if this this was confusing, alot of my worldview comes from my own perennialist ponderings rather than more established traditions, im more than happy to learn and here your thoughts on this.)

I would say yes if you can do paradigm shift pretty easily. if not then don't bother. I grew up and i'm involved in a lot of catholic stuff so for me is easy, and i find working with pagan things difficult due to that. so when i don't want to do goetia i do either hoodoo or chaos magick stuff.

Second, I think it's easier to focus on Christ than in YHWH. Christ is more closer to the human.

 

[MorganBlack]

Since the denizens of Hell / Underworld Earth came up, as well as the "rational" was to approach them, I thought the work of Canadian artist and Greek Orthodox Christian Jonathan Pageau and his Symbolic World fits here.

Please know you do not need to be Orthodox or Catholic to appreciate these, but it helps to have a grounding in the symbolic language of the West many are missing , when trying to decode the grimoires, as well as the cosmos of traditional Western spiritual and mystical practices - by which I mean the pre-1875, pre-Blavatsky, pre-New Age universe. Not saying you have to stay there, but most of the modern maps just re-skin what was originally just part of the Catholic and Orthodox cosmo-vision (preserved a bit better there in the original mother culture of the Church, I say, rather enviously.)

Pageau teaches classical 'symbolic realism' which makes the Catholic and Orthodox cosmos - not sure what to call it - but "perceivable" (the classical word was "intelligible" - God was perceivable/intelligible through the symbolic language at the cognitive level. These are the symbolic and mythic Zen finger pointing at the Moon or Heaven. Or Hell as a disordering, in this case.

He very consistently talks about the Logos as the divine ordering principle through which Heaven and Earth (Gaia, we can call her/it) are harmonized. Relevant here. Again, apologies if this comes across as preaching. When I talk about the need for self-coherency when approaching the Underworld, this is part of it. But I had to learn it the hard way. I think this will help newcomers

I am not sure how to translate all this into other symbolic systems, which can only confuse people more - except to say your job is to transmit the Divine to the Underworld - as least as my personal visions and practices seem to indicate

Anyway, his work is a great intro for people not used to thinking mythically and symbolically in the Western language. I am not saying you have to convert to Catholicism or the Orthodox Church (the original culture, by the way, before the Great Schism, was Greek, not Latin. This is pretty important, but no time to go into). It can help deeper appreciation of the symbolic patterns that run through biblical narrative, fairy tales, popular culture, as well as "esoteric" reactions against them

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[ahathoor]

your job is to transmit the Divine to the Underworld

Amen. I'm now quite certain we're on the same side.

Btw since you mentioned fairy tales, indeed it is my strong feeling the less adulterated folk tales can pull a ton of weight in daimonic education. With Hungarian folk tales, you kinda get a proper táltos curriculum if you pay proper attention...

 

[solxyz]

I'm a bit late to this conversation, but I think it's important to distinguish between beings that are potentially hostile or dangerous to humans as an expression of their and our healthy place in the world (e.g. mama bear defending her young) and those whose danger results from some kind of ontological deficiency (e.g. drug addict encouraging you to join the party). The ways that we should relate to these situations and the kinds of protections that are possible differ significantly, but the distinction is rarely drawn, and most systems have some amount of a ideological drive which leads them to misclassify one way or the other.

 

[Kepler]

(Disclaimer im a novice when it comes to practical magic so please excuse my naivety)

For the most part I operate under a buddhist cosmology where pagan gods and abrahamic entities are devas/spirits trapped in samsara with us with varying degrees of power according to their qualities and liberation status (Zeus for example although powerful within samsara would be an entity consumed with poisonous samsaric influence because of his thirst for power, hedonism, and large ego). These kinds of entities i use for magical workings because buddhist ones are more interested in strictly helping me reach liberation not provide me magical powers or cursing my enemies so this is why I find samsaric entities useful.

Pagan gods i invoke mostly for right hand path workings. Granting me or others wisdom, good luck, blessings in magical workings, harmony, good health, defense from low level spirits etc. But ive also been wanting to incorporate more offensive practices to my arsenal for drastic measures, which infernals/demons would be perfect for or even gleeful to do. Only thing stopping me is the blowback that could happen from working with these entities (obviously some karmic retribution is to be expected and unavoidable, but id rather not have a demon on my ass on top of that). And the pagan gods from what i know aren't really known for their battles against demonic spirits the same way abrahamic entities are.

So to help with this i was thinking about beseeching the infernal's arch-nemesis, Yahweh, Christ, the Angels and the Saints. My question is would this be a good or beneficial plan? My logic tells me that receiving communion regularly or baptism would help me boost my reputation with Yahweh and his entourage would be more likely to aid/protect me. The only issue with this is that from what i know Yahweh is insanely jealous, and i am an idol worshipper who does not believe him to be the only god or the ultimate ground for truth like i do with the buddhist dharmakaya or neoplatonic One. So it might not even be worth it in the end.

(Sorry if this this was confusing, alot of my worldview comes from my own perennialist ponderings rather than more established traditions, im more than happy to learn and here your thoughts on this.)

Since your aim is perennialism, perhaps dispensing with Catholicism and adapting a Gnostic model may work for you. Where Yahweh is defined as a samsaric entity Ialdabaoth. Then instead of aligning with that entity it's the pleroma in a hierarchal dualism. That may be more coherent with your model of reality and practical aim. Keeping the Buddhist nondual distinct from it. Even bridging it with Jungian concepts of pleroma/dharmakaya may be useful.
The adaptation of a solar Christ model for your works may be helpful too if viewed in an astronomical/astrological sense rather than Catholic doctrinal.

 

[HoldAll]

As I said, the Church doesn't leave you with much interpretative leeway. Scripture may be opaque or contradictory in places but the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

is not:

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others -- even if this were for the sake of restoring their health -- are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

Interesting though that it seems to acknowledge the power of the occult as factual.

 

[Darkat]

I give up on you lot, if you want to study and practice left hand path magick, why the hell would you want to join the catholic church?
Is that for some kind of "protection"? What a load of rubbish.

 

[ahathoor]

@HoldAll and as I said, something as wildly complex and old as the Catholic Church isn't defined by its Catechism any more than, say, the USA is defined by its legislation... (if the latter were true, cocaine metabolites wouldn't be a prime adulterant in the wastewater of US cities...)

I'm not particularly arguing against your final verdict (sure, definitely don't convert over something so trivial), but I am arguing with the flow of reasoning.

The church is equally defined in a way by every former version of the Cathechism, every dropped or rejected teaching that was once mainstream, every excess or hidden heresy of its core ranks, every current of tolerated dissent that promulgated via its intellectual channels, and every neutral idea that permeated it...

There are a significant amount of outspoken Catholic mystics, wizards, shamans, cunning folk, etc. who do not practice their work in spite of their Catholic faith and identity but literally through it. This sort of thing has been (and probably still is) so prevalent among the ordained clergy that there's even a name for it in academia: the church magical underground.

Arguably, almost every parishioner and even clergy member in any religion is some degree of a heretic, some less some more, and this isn't necessarily a bad thing. In some periods the organization was more expansive and sought to integrate, at other times stricter and sought to cleanse and control its ranks... but ultimately Katholikos means "universal", it needs to be able to soak up a lot of dissent to truly carry that title.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 10:26 AM

I give up on you lot, if you want to study and practice left hand path magick, why the hell would you want to join the catholic church?

I wasn't aware you had any hope for us to begin with.

 

[Darkat]

@HoldAll and as I said, something as wildly complex and old as the Catholic Church isn't defined by its Catechism any more than, say, the USA is defined by its legislation... (if the latter were true, cocaine metabolites wouldn't be a prime adulterant in the wastewater of US cities...)

I'm not particularly arguing against your final verdict (sure, definitely don't convert over something so trivial), but I am arguing with the flow of reasoning.

The church is equally defined in a way by every former version of the Cathechism, every dropped or rejected teaching that was once mainstream, every excess or hidden heresy of its core ranks, every current of tolerated dissent that promulgated via its intellectual channels, and every neutral idea that permeated it...

There are a significant amount of outspoken Catholic mystics, wizards, shamans, cunning folk, etc. who do not practice their work in spite of their Catholic faith and identity but literally through it. This sort of thing has been (and probably still is) so prevalent among the ordained clergy that there's even a name for it in academia: the church magical underground.

Arguably, almost every parishioner and even clergy member in any religion is some degree of a heretic, some less some more, and this isn't necessarily a bad thing. In some periods the organization was more expansive and sought to integrate, at other times stricter and sought to cleanse and control its ranks... but ultimately Katholikos means "universal", it needs to be able to soak up a lot of dissent to truly carry that title.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 10:26 AM

I wasn't aware you had any hope for us to begin with.

You poor, pathetic creatures - is a demon going to come in the night and whisk you away? Give me a break.

 

[SeekerPS]

A church is man made, the catholic was founded 300 years after Jesus death. It’s only a fan club with guidelines, what is a priest going to do if you commit a sin? They can’t even tell the police if you tell them during confession apparently. Worry about the deity, not the fan club.

 

[Nembra]

As I said, the Church doesn't leave you with much interpretative leeway. Scripture may be opaque or contradictory in places but the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

is not:

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others -- even if this were for the sake of restoring their health -- are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

Interesting though that it seems to acknowledge the power of the occult as factual.

I don't think CCC can be regarded as theologically sound, if not outright contradicting itself, scriptures and the Church tradition then at the very least using obfuscating and confusing language without clearly defining its terms not to even mention providing justifications for its claims. This is bad to the point that - for just one example - one of the ideas it lists as core principles of Christian faith is sometimes used within the Church as an illustration of naive, essentially pagan religiosity. Maybe it's supposed to be clear and authoritative but it practice it requires not much less interpretation than the Bible itself.

 

[Ra-Hoor-Khuit]

Sounds like your goal is to "protest" something about catholocism.... hmm.....

 

[Kepler]

I give up on you lot, if you want to study and practice left hand path magick, why the hell would you want to join the catholic church?
Is that for some kind of "protection"? What a load of rubbish.

In OP's case they did state they were a novice and looking to adapt Catholicism as a discrete samsaric model through global perennialism. Although, as you're noting there's a lot of Catholic apologetics trying to validate Catholicism leading into attempts at conversion that isn't answering OP's question on its terms.
But any transcendent god has no reality and is a phantasm. A placeholder for an unknown upon infinite regress in this case, that is overthrown, a corruption possibly defined as evil in secular ethical terms in the syncretism through demonization, as understanding of reality improves with that of cosmology.

 

[ahathoor]

But any transcendent god has no reality and is a phantasm.

Funny how we're here essentially chatting about the finer points of a world religion and its relationship to various forms of magic, and you accuse us of "attempts at conversion"... I'm a pluralist and stand for respect for most paths and traditions. If discussing an organization in a non-demonizing, non-reductive, non-prejudiced way is an "attempt at conversion" then...

...then I wonder how we could accurately describe you stating your damning views on transcendental theism as unquestionable fact... shrug

 

[MorganBlack]

The Church is never going to give its benediction to sorcery, summoning demons, necromancy, or harming people. That much is pretty much non-negotiable, and it always has been. Sorcery is often very, very mean. The Church cannot endorse violence, no matter what it's atheist and pagan detractors say.

Catechism-level Catholicism is solid general advice to live a good life. And I do not want to wipe away the tension there. But 97% of "magic" is usually this White-as-Snow Mental Mysticism magic (including Lavey Satanism) - which is formerly Christian New Thought dressed up with edge-lord spookiness. Or it is summoning angels, working on thinking positively, and generally trying to figure out who you are and what being a person in this world means. Generally positive things.

The 3% of us who do take the grimoires seriously - and the even tiny percentage who use them to summon demons - which are not even demons but more like Lovecraftian underworld elementals personifying the raw, tempestuous forces of Nature, imho - those of us who do, many of us are quite devout Christians.

We need to remember that "witchcraft" before Wicca - and for most of the planet then and now - meant maleficia: harming people with necromantic spirits. Not this white-as-the-driven-snow nature mysticism - which often used Catholic, Christian, and Jewish ritual tech (see the photos of Alex Sanders - the "king of the Witches" in a circle with Jewish god name)- but with mythical characters drawn from Victorian-era poetry and some academic scraps. Whatever. More eye-rolling than something to be worried about.

In medieval and early modern Europe when someone was accused of witchcraft the crime was the use of necromantic spirits - demons, the dead, or both (demons are used to control the dead here - think Cerberus ) - to harm people, animals, or property. That's it. Not that you used herbs and crystals or honored nature. They also do not want you engage in idolatry and Folk Catholic sorcerers are very specific to treat this all as business contract - just like you would with your mechanic Dave. Nobody is raising Dave up cosmic proportions as God. That makes no sense.

Let me add here, in this Symbolic World (per Pageau) the rational order of the cosmos for a Catholic is literally Christ, regardless of the symbols used - and this not a modern invention or a syncretic patchwork. If you are genuinely engaged with meaning, are genuinely trying to understand the rational order of the cosmos, you are already in contact with the Logos - whether you call him Christ, Tao, Xeper, Ma'at, Hermes, or the Cosmic Order.

The medieval Church wasn't stupid about this. I need to look at when that got added, but at some point it It made a distinction that got flattened into a simple "astrology bad" where the real spiritual issue was you can't use the stars to sabotage your trust in God. Even "occultism" encourages the venial sin of "scrupulosity" - a faithless optimizing and scheming that makes your soul small I am most guilty of this often and Catholic Marian Mysticism helps me to remember remember to trust in Creation, even when it appears broken. This is the Catholicism I value. Not the legalistic one.

Oh, there are dictates against homosexuality in there too. I do not like them, having gay friends. But Catholic families have always still loved, embraced, and cared for their gay children, compared to American Protestants who treat their own children with outright cruelty and hatred. Not sure how it that will even get "fixed" but Catholicism is and has to act like planetary level religion (and is on track to be the first) and many cultures it is part of are very conservative.

 

[Euderion]

(Disclaimer im a novice when it comes to practical magic so please excuse my naivety)

For the most part I operate under a buddhist cosmology where pagan gods and abrahamic entities are devas/spirits trapped in samsara with us with varying degrees of power according to their qualities and liberation status (Zeus for example although powerful within samsara would be an entity consumed with poisonous samsaric influence because of his thirst for power, hedonism, and large ego). These kinds of entities i use for magical workings because buddhist ones are more interested in strictly helping me reach liberation not provide me magical powers or cursing my enemies so this is why I find samsaric entities useful.

Pagan gods i invoke mostly for right hand path workings. Granting me or others wisdom, good luck, blessings in magical workings, harmony, good health, defense from low level spirits etc. But ive also been wanting to incorporate more offensive practices to my arsenal for drastic measures, which infernals/demons would be perfect for or even gleeful to do. Only thing stopping me is the blowback that could happen from working with these entities (obviously some karmic retribution is to be expected and unavoidable, but id rather not have a demon on my ass on top of that). And the pagan gods from what i know aren't really known for their battles against demonic spirits the same way abrahamic entities are.

So to help with this i was thinking about beseeching the infernal's arch-nemesis, Yahweh, Christ, the Angels and the Saints. My question is would this be a good or beneficial plan? My logic tells me that receiving communion regularly or baptism would help me boost my reputation with Yahweh and his entourage would be more likely to aid/protect me. The only issue with this is that from what i know Yahweh is insanely jealous, and i am an idol worshipper who does not believe him to be the only god or the ultimate ground for truth like i do with the buddhist dharmakaya or neoplatonic One. So it might not even be worth it in the end.

(Sorry if this this was confusing, alot of my worldview comes from my own perennialist ponderings rather than more established traditions, im more than happy to learn and here your thoughts on this.)

What do you exactly mean by "Operate under buddhist cosmology"? Does it mean u r practising buddhist, have initiations and so on? What type or lineage exactly? Because there is a solid amount of black magic inside tibetan buddhism. Great part of middle ages in Tibet was about fighting with mongol invasions and they did a lot of war black magic for that. And there are books about that too, whole buddhist grimoars. They are considered kinda problematic nowadays and buddhists dont talk about those times and practises very much, for obvious reasons. But it was practiced regularly during war-times for centuries. But anyway from a buddhist perspective, you need a series of initiations for that.

 

[ahathoor]

Oh, there are dictates against homosexuality in there too

Yea... I kinda notch this whole hyperfocus on reproductive ethics up as a political perversion, with its roots more or less untethered from theology. It's a molehill of a moral panic that a large part of the clergy decided to stake a flag and die on - starting with divorce and birth control, and flowing into lgbt questions.

There are a lot of things that are sins of some degree from a strict reading of scripture or cathechism, that aren't discussed or addressed with such (or any) fervor outside individual confession booths.

It is a valid argument against joining the church today if one isn't part of it to begin with. Not necessarily a valid argument to condemn its two millennia of history.

 

[MorganBlack]

Because there is a solid amount of black magic inside tibetan buddhism.

Sorcery in Tibetan Buddhist is considered to carry a heavy karmic burden that must be purified through - get this - confession and ethical discipline. Hmmm.

But also meditation on emptiness and ritual purification practices. The Vajrasattva purification practice is the most widely used here.