[Help] Is joining the catholic church worth it for protection in the working with infernal spirits?

[Beyond Everything]

It's also very weird that you mention China specifically, since throughout most of imperial period anything that fell under the xiejiao ("barbaric wizardry", loosely speaking) label was severly punished - the emperor had pretty much a monopoly on esoteric insight. Almost as if you haven't even bothered to google if your wishful ideas aren't embarrassingly wrong.

I said 'centuries long' suppression of esoteric practices. In 2000 years the concerted persecutions were a small percentage of that, and were usually related to political matters. Pretending that China didn't have a flourishing of religions side-by-side and more pertinently- esoteric practices- is a real distortion (which is why we have a rich abundance of practices stemming from there, compared to the tepid, restricted practices catholics engage in). Whereas over 1500 years of catholic rule, anything heterodox was sniffed out.

The phenomenon is of course by no means particular to occult practices - Socrates was very famously executed for refusing to conform to the state-mandated spirituality, by the exact same mechanism.

Nothing to do with suppression of esoteric practices, but his preaching of what they termed 'atheism'. Irrelevant.

Catholicism is designed to restrict the personal growth and power of the individual, that's why even today they priggishly warn about the most vanilla of practices, such as yoga and energy healing

 

[Nembra]

I said 'centuries long' suppression of esoteric practices. In 2000 years the concerted persecutions were a small percentage of that, and were usually related to political matters. Pretending that China didn't have a flourishing of religions side-by-side and more pertinently- esoteric practices- is a real distortion (which is why we have a rich abundance of practices stemming from there, compared to the tepid, restricted practices catholics engage in). Whereas over 1500 years of catholic rule, anything heterodox was sniffed out.

Again, you are proposing no standard of quantitative comparison. You're saying that one suppression is significant while other is not based on pretty much nothing but vibes. I think I can simply disagree - the xiejiao basically-witch-hunt lasted for seven centuries and has survived basically until modern times while comparable practices in Europe are basically a matter of something like four centuries dissolving around the enlightenment and perpetrated in vast majority by protestants. Definitely not some 1500 years evidently pulled straight out of your ass.

Nothing to do with suppression of esoteric practices, but his preaching of what they termed 'atheism'. Irrelevant.

It is an example of the same pattern of power dynamics in a different situation. Clearly.

Catholicism is designed to restrict the personal growth and power of the individual, that's why even today they priggishly warn about the most vanilla of practices, such as yoga and energy healing

You're just making empty claims at this point. It's not an argument. What is asserted without reason or evidence requires neither to refute, so you know: no, it's not designed to do that and it is not why it warns about those practices.

 

[ahathoor]

Okay I guess the "systematic suppression of esoteric practices" went so incredibly badly that not only do we have a western magical tradition going now scientifically verifiably back to literal ancient Egypt, but also most of its preservation, further development and proliferation happened within the Catholic Church, and the stuff that doesn't come from there was preserved via the Muslim world.

And that's speaking of actually banned underground sorcery and heretical theurgy, not some vague idea of esoteric practices. If we understand that word correctly, monastic Catholicism was an absolute hotbed for those too.

And again, we can't forget that this was a church made into a Roman administrative state religion... and the Romans never needed to go far for a nice and bloody witch hunt or military spiritual suppression.

 

[Beyond Everything]

not only do we have a western magical tradition going now scientifically verifiably back to literal ancient Egypt,

There's no unbroken tradition that goes back to ancient Egypt. And when most people were compelled to be catholics, of course you will have 'catholics' dabbling in grimoires and other things that are of lesser importance in the esoteric arena anyway.

not some vague idea of esoteric practices. If we understand that word correctly, monastic Catholicism was an absolute hotbed for those too.

No, monastic catholicism was not a hotbed of esoteric practices. They were wedded to religious practices that for a few people crossed over into basic meditative states still within an entirely ignorant and repressive context. There is no understanding at all. Just look at the approach to sex. Simple repression, with no techniques or methodology to actually use sex and transmute sexual energy, which is a tremendous goldmine of potential. Hello, wake up, that should clue you in with what you're dealing with.

It's amazing how people will argue for their cages with the most ridiculous of arguments. I mean I was actually informed that catholicism has no dogma lol

It's a sickly religion designed to make slaves. How very sad for you that you can't develop your own power and your own subtle body and instead you bathe in energies that are at base preying on you. And yes, this is the left-hand path forum, so your whining about anti-catholicism is misplaced lol

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 12:13 AM

You're just making empty claims at this point. It's not an argument.

I suppose it is an 'argument' when you make a claim about how christianity is 'broadcast' in the astral? lol

 

[ahathoor]

okay i guess i can expound on this question...

lol it wouldn't piss me off. Why would it piss you off? What is inducing that?

because bad faith arguments are extremely annoying, especially when coupled with disrespect and / or disdain xD

Isn't that what catholicism says. They are the Answer?

No. It says Christ is the answer. And then you ask "what or who is Christ", and there's several libraries written full by trying to grapple with that question. Admitting to the mystery of Christ is core to Catholicism.

In contrast, you talk as if your worldview had been resolved as some mechanistic and ultimately homogeneous plane where everything's "just a thoughtform" and that's it. I find reductionism incredibly hybristic, whether one wishes to reduce existence to wave functions or egregores.

you don't appear to have one other than catholicism can't be defined by what the church hierarchy does for centuries

My argument is that the church. even with all its faults and mistakes, was ultimately just a human institutional religious system, and as such it did not particularly differ from other comparable institutional religious systems, whether Abrahamic or not.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 12:24 AM

They were wedded to religious practices that for a few people crossed over into basic meditative states still within an entirely ignorant and repressive context. There is no understanding at all

You sound like President Trump when he speaks of his political opponents. "Dumb. A oumb person. Very low IQ. No smartness at all."

If you really think this is true, then I'm certain none of us can convince you of the opposite... but it's really not true.

As for the Egyptian link, that's some quite recent stuff that I read in Hutton's work, will find references.

 

[Beyond Everything]

okay i guess i can expound on this question...



because bad faith arguments are extremely annoying, especially when coupled with disrespect and / or disdain xD

They aren't 'bad faith' arguments

No. It says Christ is the answer.

extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

In contrast, you talk as if your worldview had been resolved as some mechanistic and ultimately homogeneous plane where everything's "just a thoughtform" and that's it. I find reductionism incredibly hybristic, whether one wishes to reduce existence to wave functions or egregores.

Well if you want to say catholicism is true, then many other religions can't be, this means you're being reductionist yourself. Your argument is quite lame and as well I never said 'everything is just a thoughtform', but these energies people are experiencing are only taken literally by rubes.

My argument is that the church. even with all its faults and mistakes, was ultimately just a human institutional religious system, and as such it did not particularly differ from other comparable institutional religious systems, whether Abrahamic or not.

Well I'm not one to defend religions, but what is different about Catholicism (and Islam) is the degree to which it wouldnt tolerate other religions and practices. That wasn't isolated spurts in history, that was a consistent pattern over a very long time. This is settled history which people just have an emotional aversion to accepting.

 

[Nembra]

I suppose it is an 'argument' when you make a claim about how christianity is 'broadcast' in the astral? lol

It is quite interesting that now you're suddenly remembering this when you can make a half-assed deflection out of it.

No, monastic catholicism was not a hotbed of esoteric practices. They were wedded to religious practices that for a few people crossed over into basic meditative states still within an entirely ignorant and repressive context. There is no understanding at all. Just look at the approach to sex. Simple repression, with no techniques or methodology to actually use sex and transmute sexual energy, which is a tremendous goldmine of potential. Hello, wake up, that should clue you in with what you're dealing with.

Ah yes, the "they aren't doing it my way so they must be stupid and repressed" bullshit all over again, truly the singular thought you keep reiterating. I understand you must consider yourself very enlightened, but I'd bet something like 90% of people here distinctly remember this exact juvenile phase in their lives. When you're saying "just look" it only means "just look through my narrow, closed-minded perspective". You are not even able to distance yourself from your own perceptions enough to notice they're limited, how can you consider yourself an expert on meditation? What kind of meditation are you actually practicing? Repeating to yourself over and over that you can only ever be right about everything until you start believing it?

 

[Beyond Everything]

It is quite interesting that now you're suddenly remembering this when you can make a half-assed deflection out of it.

Ah yes, the "they aren't doing it my way so they must be stupid and repressed" bullshit all over again, truly the singular thought you keep reiterating. I understand you must consider yourself very enlightened, but I'd bet something like 90% of people here distinctly remember this exact juvenile phase in their lives. When you're saying "just look" it only means "just look through my narrow, closed-minded perspective". You are not even able to distance yourself from your own perceptions enough to notice they're limited, how can you consider yourself an expert on meditation? What kind of meditation are you actually practicing? Repeating to yourself over and over that you can only ever be right about everything until you start believing it?

Ok, more whining about me. I'll just repeat what I said since you were completely incapable of grappling with it

Just look at the approach to sex. Simple repression, with no techniques or methodology to actually use sex and transmute sexual energy, which is a tremendous goldmine of potential.

An entire field of personal potential that catholicism just bars, with the label of 'sin'. Quite primitive.

 

[Nembra]

Ok, more whining about me. I'll just repeat what I said since you were completely incapable of grappling with it

Just look at the approach to sex. Simple repression, with no techniques or methodology to actually use sex and transmute sexual energy, which is a tremendous goldmine of potential.

An entire field of personal potential that catholicism just bars, with the label of 'sin'. Quite primitive.

This is blatantly untrue. I'm, I realise, not likely to succeed in educating you but let me try once more. Christianity, as a massive memetic system, contains many spiritual insights difficult to uncover on one's own. This is one of them.

There is obviously a current of potential connected with sex but there is another one that lies in choosing to abstain from sex and neither is particularly "better" than the other. One empowers life, the other empowers will (the Two Trees are reflected here, by the way) - you obviously can't access both at the same time, unless through theosis.

"Sin" in this context means something the Church recognises as using given wells of potential outside of an ethos that makes them spiritually safe to harness (it is, interestingly, also considered a sin to abstain from sex with one's spouse). The whole thing with rules and commandments is really an attempt at finding the right ethos to access all the powers, physical and spiritual, without betraying and harming one's self.

 

[Beyond Everything]

This is blatantly untrue. I'm, I realise, not likely to succeed in educating you but let me try once more. Christianity, as a massive memetic system, contains many spiritual insights difficult to uncover on one's own. This is one of them.

There is obviously a current of potential connected with sex but there is another one that lies in choosing to abstain from sex and neither is particularly "better" than the other. One empowers life, the other empowers will (the Two Trees are reflected here, by the way) - you obviously can't access both at the same time, unless through theosis.

No, it has no techniques or methodologies. There are all sorts of possibilities that range the gamut in sexual activity and restraint, and it has none. 'Be celibate' isn't a technique. They don't have any esoteric techniques to deal directly with sexual energy and use it to transmute into a higher form of being, whether celibate or active. They have things to distract you from the energy (like prayer) or begging egregores like saints to help you overcome 'sin' or exhausting yourself in labor or other nonsense. Incredibly unsophisticated.

 

[Nembra]

No, it has no techniques or methodologies. There are all sorts of possibilities that range the gamut in sexual activity and restraint, and it has none. 'Be celibate' isn't a technique. They don't have any esoteric techniques to deal directly with sexual energy and use it to transmute into a higher form of being, whether celibate or active. They have things to distract you from the energy (like prayer) or begging egregores like saints to help you overcome 'sin' or exhausting yourself in labor or other nonsense. Incredibly unsophisticated.

I don't know where are you even getting all this information. You obviously have no idea what prayer is about. It is, actually, the "technique" as you would put it.

"Be celibate" is a choice made against one's desires, which by itself carries tons of power. It is a manifestation of radical freedom of will, claiming a soverign position of power over one's body. This is exactly what "higher form of being" means.

 

[ahathoor]

Honestly, you know what, yes the Catholic Church is in fact an organization with a strict dogmatic framework and a practice of repression. Everything I said I stand behind, just putting this down as an admission of fact.

I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion as our fundamental ways of evaluating ideas differ. I understand your standpoint, I just disagree, and I disagree based on ideas that you reject out of hand, making understanding impossible.

extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

And quoting this is supposed to prove what?

Well if you want to say catholicism is true, then many other religions can't be,

I reject the universal applicability of formal logic to tenets of faith (and to a lot of magic). You probably consider this wrong, which is likely the real dispute between us, and it's not one that's resolvable over a comment field.

Your argument is quite lame and as well I never said 'everything is just a thoughtform', but these energies people are experiencing are only taken literally by rubes.

Because you've been there at every saint's side and sampled the "energies"? Anyway, if you think so that's fine with me, just please try to accept it's not as self-evident as you think it is.

In fact you said mysticism is just dissolving in an egregoric current. That's like saying art is just puking paint on canvas and getting drunk and high when a rich rube buys it. Like yes it happens, but is that all what literally all art really is?
(and is it even really art??)

 

[Beyond Everything]

I don't know where are you even getting all this information. You obviously have no idea what prayer is about. It is, actually, the "technique" as you would put it.

"Be celibate" is a choice made against one's desires, which by itself carries tons of power. It is a manifestation of radical freedom of will, claiming a soverign position of power over one's body. This is exactly what "higher form of being" means.

Simply being celibate and praying is not a significant esoteric technique, otherwise every non-pederastic priest would be a well-developed higher spiritual being.

Celibacy combined with sophisticated energetic techniques (including subtle forms of sexual practice) is a different matter. But catholicism has precisely zero conception of that, and would toss that in the forbidden box. I'm not speaking from theory here.

 

[Nembra]

Simply being celibate and praying is not a significant esoteric technique, otherwise every non-pederastic priest would be a well-developed higher spiritual being.

Celibacy combined with sophisticated energetic techniques (including subtle forms of sexual practice) is a different matter. But catholicism has precisely zero conception of that, and would toss that in the forbidden box. I'm not speaking from theory here.

I don't think you are reading carefully what I'm saying. You are repeating points I have just directly addressed. Kind of like speaking to an LLM.

This kind of power doesn't require any sexual practices, subtle or unsubtle, you just seem unable to pinpoint what it actually is. The whole language of "energetic techniques" is only one of possible metaphorical frameworks, and in my experience quite a confusing and limiting one. Not every effective spiritual practice can be descriebed in the language you chose for your own esoteric bubble. You are trying to put what's unknown to you in terms of the known, not realising you don't really have a theory for it.

And you know, many of the priests I know are certainly quite spiritually developed. There are, however many dimensions to spirit, many colours, and while celibacy grants certain boons it is by no means sufficient - as is the case for every such current.

 

[Beyond Everything]

This kind of power doesn't require any sexual practices,

lol what kind of power? Catholics don't obtain any power. For instance, any (acceptable) paranormal experiences they have are ascribed to 'god's' grace. It isn't a personally empowering thing. It's all about subservience. Paint it all up, but it's subservience to egregores. That's all it is.

 

[Nembra]

lol what kind of power? Catholics don't obtain any power. For instance, any (acceptable) paranormal experiences they have are ascribed to 'god's' grace. It isn't a personally empowering thing. It's all about subservience. Paint it all up, but it's subservience to egregores. That's all it is.

I mean, you're quite clearly subservient to whatever egregore or other creature is wearing the mask of your "inner self". Even if, by on odd twist of logic, Catholicism is a cage, how is it more empowering to craft another, much smaller cage for yourself?

You seem to be perceptive in all matters that don't lie in your hate-induced blind spots. Have you not already noticed that every thing pursued is a current of its own that's ultimately not you? Your pursuit of a subtle body is exactly as much a divine domain as any other, only I worship what contains me while you worship what is contained by you.

How is it not personally empowering to claim absolute freedom and dominion over all that exists? Only a spirit as spiteful as Pride would call receiving it freely as a gift a "disempowerment". Is the freedom of an escapee diminished because his prison cell was opened by a friend from outside?

 

[HoldAll]

Among all this debate what Catholicism is, is supposed to be, secretly is but overtly isn't, etc., let's not forget that this is the Left Hand forum section and that the OP was intending to join the Catholic Church for purely pragmatic reason while still holding on to a 'spiritually diverse' worldview and invoking various pagan gods. Therefore, the real question should be whether the sacraments of baptism and holy communion afford protection against infernal spirits despite the recipient's refusal to bow down to official Church doctrine. My first reaction was no, you'd have to be in a state of grace to receive communion and therefore confessing your occult pursuits in advance would be an absolute precondition but now I'm not so sure - if Catholicism's mystical side indeed trumps its narrow-minded dogmas, couldn't its sacraments be efficacious all the same?

 

[Nembra]

Among all this debate what Catholicism is, is supposed to be, secretly is but overtly isn't, etc., let's not forget that this is the Left Hand forum section and that the OP was intending to join the Catholic Church for purely pragmatic reason while still holding on to a 'spiritually diverse' worldview and invoking various pagan gods. Therefore, the real question should be whether the sacraments of baptism and holy communion afford protection against infernal spirits despite the recipient's refusal to bow down to official Church doctrine. My first reaction was no, you'd have to be in a state of grace to receive communion and therefore confessing your occult pursuits in advance would be an absolute precondition but now I'm not so sure - if Catholicism's mystical side indeed trumps its narrow-minded dogmas, couldn't its sacraments be efficacious all the same?

The church doesn't actually a priori invalidate sacraments, even taken for such cynical purposes, as it doesn't really have that power. Maybe the baptisms, certainly not the communion. The "state of grace" is a very nebulously defined construction anyway. Now whether such a sacrament, though perhaps valid, would actually grant any kind of actual protection is dubious.

 

[Beyond Everything]

I mean, you're quite clearly subservient to whatever egregore or other creature is wearing the mask of your "inner self".

This bespeaks of your inexperience with the true mysterium, that of the depths of the 'I'.

How is it not personally empowering to claim absolute freedom and dominion over all that exists?

It is a bit farcical to announce one has 'dominion over all ' when the most intimate aspects of one's personal deployment of drives and forces are strictly governed by divine decree. Furthermore this just exemplifies the cognitive/energetic dissonance I alluded to earlier. Would we say a king's courier has dominion over the land? The entire religion is built upon the negation of personal will- thy will be done. The complete muddle of using the language of absolute power (that is certainly a draw for the individual) while one seeks to further and further negate one's own very will.

. Therefore, the real question should be whether the sacraments of baptism and holy communion afford protection against infernal spirits despite the recipient's refusal to bow down to official Church doctrine.

The church says itself that communion is not even absolute protection against demonic possession. I don't see catholics avoiding any of the problems of existence anyone else experiences. So what are we really talking about here.

 

[Nembra]

This bespeaks of your inexperience with the true mysterium, that of the depths of the 'I'.

You are in fact giving up your "I" to those depths, choosing to identigy yourself with them. They are only "you" because you choose to connect with their current.

It is a bit farcical to announce one has 'dominion over all ' when the most intimate aspects of one's personal deployment of drives and forces are strictly governed by divine decree. Furthermore this just exemplifies the cognitive/energetic dissonance I alluded to earlier. Would we say a king's courier has dominion over the land? The entire religion is built upon the negation of personal will- thy will be done. The complete muddle of using the language of absolute power (that is certainly a draw for the individual) while one seeks to further and further negate one's own very will.

"Divine decree", as you call it, is in essence knowledge not compulsion. Is personal will negated if it is used to choose what one knows to lead to happiness, spiritual growth and ultimately divinity? Is one only free when blind to consequences of his actions?