[Opinion] Is magic part of religion, or can it be separated from religion?

[Grayhoss]

In my opinion, magic. Religions, as far as magic goes, are codified magical models.

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 9:07 AM

which indeed?

You're approaching it from a very European model. In animism there is no difference; magick and religion are part of eachother. They developed together and are expressions of eachother and as has been said previously by another poster Indigenous animistic 'religion' doesn't even trouble to recognize 'religion' as a separate category from 'the experience of reality' or magick as separate from either.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

You're approaching it from a very European model. In animism there is no difference; magick and religion are part of each other. They developed together and are expressions of each other and as has been said previously by another poster Indigenous animistic 'religion' doesn't even trouble to recognize 'religion' as a separate category from 'the experience of reality' or magick as separate from either.

You are correct, but it can still stand that you need a structure in which to implement the magic, regardless of whether you call it, or even think of it, as a religion.

I understand that I look at these things from a very detached (European?) point of view, because that is how I came to understand magic

 

[Angelkesfarl]

Well, it depends on case. If one looks at the major religions of the world, or as they are known based on their founder Abraham; "Abrahamic religions", albeit their supposed denial of magic practices, they all are full to the brim with recorded magical practices, some detailed some not. For example, Christianity has the mention of the Bronze Snake that God commanded Moses to craft during the wilderness (Book of Numbers 21:4-9). The Serpent had healing properties and the person bit by a venomous snake was able to heal themselves just by looking at the snake.

In Islam, we have the Surah Al-Fatiha prayer who is recited to seek protection and recovery from illness.

In Judaism then comes the Mi Shebeirach prayer which means a communal prayer recited during Torah services asking God for refu'ah shleimah (complete healing) of both body and spirit.

I could extend longer on this but that would mean 10-20 or even more paragraphs as to how much mainstream religions actually have references, subtle and not-so-subtle-at-all references to magic.

Now, when it comes to whether magic is to be applied with religion, I think it depends more on the practitioner's choice. In my opinion, religion is what provides the starting point / background for magical practices, the exoteric side of things. The esoteric one comes then when someone wishes to know the hidden things behind the religion they may or may not practice, or are interested to practice. The idea is to strip away the useless political, dogmatic and power-limiting aspects that are dictated today by various modern "gurus" and phony practitioners of the occult that suffer from ego and power trips.

For example, one may have an eclectic path (multiple practices), and they can integrate reading Psalms (also found in Christianity), with Runes, Rosaries, and any other suitable methods. The craft is the result of what you, as the practicioner decide to put on the canvas called the path, essentially after receiving valuable spiritual insight that some form of practice from a religion will fit your work or not.

The truth is that Al-Fatiha was revealed by God so that Muslims might pray with it. When a man in a neighborhood was bitten and no cure could be found for him, the Muslim man recited it over him—that is, sought refuge in it—and he was healed. The Prophet of Islam affirmed that it is a supplication, a seeker of refuge, and a divine call that is answered, and that by God’s command it wards off harm, sorcery, and the evil eye; it is also effective against illnesses and snakebites .

This is not meant to be a display; rather, there is a difference between a talisman associated with a specific entity and seeking refuge through verses, psalms, or other words attributed to God Himself.

This is how we distinguish between magic and religion: in religion, you seek refuge in the name of God and His attributes, and the matter does not require any rituals or complexities. In the example, the man simply recited the Fatiha, took some of his own saliva, and applied it to the bite, and he was healed. Here, the driving force is his faith in God.
Magic, however, requires complex rituals to communicate with these entities.

Religion and magic are two different things (if that is what you are asking ? ) ... that is why we have two very different names ( with different roots and etymology ) for them , they derive from completely different linguistic roots and historical concepts in Latin and Persian.

What I mean here is that there is magic that stems from religion itself—that is, through the use of divine, angelic, or even demonic names. Religion is different; it is about worship and purity, and it does not interfere in people’s lives or destinies, but rather is a source of pure good, as in the case of the previous bite.

i think looking around in the world and seeing the absolute multitude of spiritual practices, which do not conform to any clean division of religion or magic, the only valid response can be that magic and religion are arbitrary and culturally specific boundaries drawn on a terrain that is both and neither at the same time

Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that the line between magic and religion isn’t clear, but that the Abrahamic definition distinguishes between them—so that magic is forbidden and religion is permitted? Here, we must distinguish between simply seeking pure divine assistance and seeking the intervention of intermediary entities in life for specific matters—whether limited to bringing benefit or warding off harm...

Because of that, religion can contain magic, but religion is not reducible to magic.

I agree with you within the framework of my basic idea, which is that religion came first because it came with Adam and Eve when they were sent down to Paradise, while magic arose from the interactions of their descendants later on.

Its up to the new religious system/people in it what it wants to do and I think no matter what religion despite its origins maybe being magick doesn't have to include it but it can and in certain parts of religions or entire religions it does. It just depends on the religion.

Do I understand from what you've said that the difference between religion and magic is that religion is a divine matter that comes from God, while magic is a purely human creation?

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 11:25 AM

magick and religion are part of eachother.

I disagree—they are not the same thing; rather, they are distinct. Religion is about justice, mercy, and morality, whereas magic is purely utilitarian, regardless of the rituals involved.

I understand that I look at these things from a very detached (European?) point of view, because that is how I came to understand magic

I would appreciate it if you could explain that perspective in more detail.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I would appreciate it if you could explain that perspective in more detail.

It's purely because I came to magic by looking for a scientific explanation of how it works. I started with parapsychology, which is the closest thing to a mainstream study of magic. After a lot of research, I discovered that much of parapsychology is actually a subset of magic.

 

[ahathoor]

Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that the line between magic and religion isn’t clear, but that the Abrahamic definition distinguishes between them—so that magic is forbidden and religion is permitted? Here, we must distinguish between simply seeking pure divine assistance and seeking the intervention of intermediary entities in life for specific matters—whether limited to bringing benefit or warding off harm...

I wouldn't even reduce it to being about Abrahamic vs. non-Abrahamic... even though the Torah speaks of sorcery being forbidden, and sorcerers as challenges to the faith of Israel, what we today see in Western discussion as religion vs. magic is a markedly hybrid Greco-Roman-Hebrew distinction, and from my limited understanding, this partially informs the similar distinction in Islamic culture via Hellenistic influence. And in many areas within say, Christianity, the distinction is highly unclear. Eg. the Catholic mass, with its rules and ontological content, is not much different from many related forms of theurgic magical operation, but it is canonically approved.

My point is that "magic" and "religion" are arbitrary boundaries, that only have validity on some spiritual terrains (eg. in Hellenic polytheism and Abrahamic religions)... in some cases the lines are more clear, like in Calvinism or Salafism, while in others more permeable, like in Catholicism or Sufism. Even though, say, as a Catholic one can clearly say what is by canon obviously encouraged (the Holy Eucharist) and what is obviously forbidden (pacts with literal demons), even this is somewhat more involved than "religion vs. magic"...

And then we have the spiritual terrains where "religion" and "magic" become synonyms. Again, to stand in for all animistic / shamanistic systems of the world there's Shinto, an animistic system built upon the veneration and magical control of spirits, with a complex mystical machinery fit for Ghostbusters being core to its practice... There's the various currents of Hinduism, where often daily religious practice via mantras and prayers blends together with folk magic and charms for daily life... say, as a businessman might pray / recite mantras for Lakshmi, he both elevates his human striving for success to the region of religious devotion, but also invokes the deity's power as a charm to bless his striving...

Of course almost all, if not ALL spiritual systems have a concept of encouraged, tolerated and prohibited spiritual practices, but these more than often simply do not line up with our Western concept of "religion" or "magic".

 

[Aeternus]

The truth is that Al-Fatiha was revealed by God so that Muslims might pray with it. When a man in a neighborhood was bitten and no cure could be found for him, the Muslim man recited it over him—that is, sought refuge in it—and he was healed. The Prophet of Islam affirmed that it is a supplication, a seeker of refuge, and a divine call that is answered, and that by God’s command it wards off harm, sorcery, and the evil eye; it is also effective against illnesses and snakebites .

This is not meant to be a display; rather, there is a difference between a talisman associated with a specific entity and seeking refuge through verses, psalms, or other words attributed to God Himself.

This is how we distinguish between magic and religion: in religion, you seek refuge in the name of God and His attributes, and the matter does not require any rituals or complexities. In the example, the man simply recited the Fatiha, took some of his own saliva, and applied it to the bite, and he was healed. Here, the driving force is his faith in God.
Magic, however, requires complex rituals to communicate with these entities.



What I mean here is that there is magic that stems from religion itself—that is, through the use of divine, angelic, or even demonic names. Religion is different; it is about worship and purity, and it does not interfere in people’s lives or destinies, but rather is a source of pure good, as in the case of the previous bite.


Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that the line between magic and religion isn’t clear, but that the Abrahamic definition distinguishes between them—so that magic is forbidden and religion is permitted? Here, we must distinguish between simply seeking pure divine assistance and seeking the intervention of intermediary entities in life for specific matters—whether limited to bringing benefit or warding off harm...



I agree with you within the framework of my basic idea, which is that religion came first because it came with Adam and Eve when they were sent down to Paradise, while magic arose from the interactions of their descendants later on.


Do I understand from what you've said that the difference between religion and magic is that religion is a divine matter that comes from God, while magic is a purely human creation?

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 11:25 AM

I disagree—they are not the same thing; rather, they are distinct. Religion is about justice, mercy, and morality, whereas magic is purely utilitarian, regardless of the rituals involved.


I would appreciate it if you could explain that perspective in more detail.

Thank you for your explanation. I believe that the Al-Fatima was revealed by God to the Muslisms in order to heal themselves and pray for healing.

I think that Magic can also be interpreted as connecting with God. Psalms can be used in various magical evocative and invocation practices, like healing. Seeking refuge to God as you put it is also a way to say that you are petitioning to God. Furthermore, talismanic sigils are different, yes, as per their structure, but that doesn't mean that they are different from petitioning to God or the God governing the said talisman.

If I have a Talisman for healing that calls on Archangel Raphael, for example... that means I am sort of sending my request to Archangel Raphael to be healed and protected from illness, and have it been the situation to not wear the sigil, I wouldn't have been able to send my desire and intention to Archangel Raphael.

Prayer, regardless of its different forms across major religions, as I have said, is very similar to intercession and requesting help from God or another deity (depending on the practitioner's path), and letting the said Deity, through energetic channels and physical occurring, or even mental occurrences, help you in your problem. The terminology is different yet the operation is the same.

As for the rituals, unlike some ceremonial stuff which is hard to be replaced with today's modernity, still, magic doesn't require complex rituals. Focusing, visualizing, cleaning your aura and chakras, contacting deities / angels / planetary spirits by meditating on their sigils doesn't require complex things. The willpower and strong desire to connect are the key. In the Shem HaMephorash system for example, I found it very useful to use Psalm 51 to connect with the Archangel Nithaiah, which is my Moral Guardian, in order to know a lot about the occult and hidden things:

The person born under Nithhaiah will receive revelations in dreams from him. Nithhaiah gives wisdom and discovers the truth of hidden mysteries. Governs occult sciences. Astrologically, this spirit signifies spiritual wisdom.

Nithhaiah rules over the Goetic demon Glasya-Labolas.

Now take a look at Psalm 51 KJV:

Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

.

So, no expensive ritual equipment, just the sigil of the Angel, the Psalm, my willingness to connect .

 

[Firetree]

The truth is that Al-Fatiha was revealed by God so that Muslims might pray with it. When a man in a neighborhood was bitten and no cure could be found for him, the Muslim man recited it over him—that is, sought refuge in it—and he was healed. The Prophet of Islam affirmed that it is a supplication, a seeker of refuge, and a divine call that is answered, and that by God’s command it wards off harm, sorcery, and the evil eye; it is also effective against illnesses and snakebites .

This is not meant to be a display; rather, there is a difference between a talisman associated with a specific entity and seeking refuge through verses, psalms, or other words attributed to God Himself.

...

What I mean here is that there is magic that stems from religion itself—that is, through the use of divine, angelic, or even demonic names. Religion is different; it is about worship and purity, and it does not interfere in people’s lives or destinies, but rather is a source of pure good, as in the case of the previous bite.

...

Again with that .

1. There are magical paths that are not re;ligious that do not do this at all.

2. What good is following a religion if it does not 'interfere' with your life and destiny ?

( not that I expect a reasonable answer form you )