[Opinion] Is magic part of religion, or can it be separated from religion?

[Firetree]

It seems 'the east' has a narrow view of magick then Mr Angel.

You criticize only one aspect of it.

Just looking at one of the many faults in your post ; '' As for religion, it has always been opposed to magic:''

Nah ... in many ancient and indigenous cultures, clear lines did not exist between religion and magic. Priests, shamans, and holy figures routinely perform rituals, spells, or incantations to heal the sick, predict the future, or bring rain . Even within European Christian traditions they frequently blended official liturgy with folk charms. Medieval priests and laypeople used prayers, holy water, and saints' names in healing remedies. Later, during the Renaissance, respected scholars studied "natural magic," alchemy, and Kabbalah alongside Christian theology .

Your view on religion is also narrow and biased .

And this ; ''Even leftists were not spared during the heyday of democracy and the exaltation of individualism; they are always viewed as selfish and frightening people. ''

 

[Angelkesfarl]

always? especially in general?

And this ; ''Even leftists were not spared during the heyday of democracy and the exaltation of individualism; they are always viewed as selfish and frightening people. ''

See my response: So, at the very least, we are looking at one of the common aspects—for minds are imprisoned in an iron cage from which the human path has been stripped away.

Magic is multifaceted, and its interpretation falls within the realm of human thought; some separate it from religion, while others view it as intertwined and intermingled with religion. Of course, the presentation of the Eastern perspective is not so much a generalization as it is a view broadened by discussions that have come to encompass the East—even its pagan religions—and the connections between the three Abrahamic religions and Shinto and Hinduism.

This stems from the connection between religious thought and the exchange of ideas between the East and the West; I do not believe this is a generalization so much as it is a manifestation of the bigger picture.

However, we must distinguish between the different schools of human thought: if we conduct a thorough investigation, we will find that most religions reject magic because it constitutes human interference in the free will of others…

This is one perspective; the other is that magic is rejected because it involves harmful acts that may hurt the innocent—for there is no justice in magic. Furthermore, it grants some people powers that are stronger and more extensive than those of others. And also because it is an act detested by God.

That is how I understand it, while the other camp believes that the use of magic was practiced by monks, priests, and high Jewish priests. In fact, one of the most damaging claims spread was the idea that King Solomon himself used it, and also that Solomon allowed his followers the freedom to adopt or worship the idols of other nations…

This is precisely what Islam has completely rejected in the Qur’an, branding the priests themselves as having strayed from the true path of religion—following sorcery and demons and pursuing magic rather than worship, supplication, and invocation of the true God. This is also what your previous remarks confirmed…

Therefore, we can now conclude that sorcery resembles religion in many ways but is not the complete and true religion. Can we say this and agree on it, or are there other responses, opinions, and criticisms...?

 

[dcwilson]

There are magick techniques that don't require religion. Still, religion provides cover for some practices that the authorities might persecute, er prosecute in the US if you don't have one; fortune-telling, e-meters, psychic readings, and seances used to be prosecuted for fraud and other things, because there's no constitutional guarantee or right to do magick! Psychic ability, "mind power", poetry, and using subtle energies, reality manipulation doesn't require gods, spirits, devils, or occult entities. Using the states of matter, leaving out Spirit, and substituting "wood", or another element for it, is just fine. You're the Artist, and no one can dictate what is proper unless you join a group. Most magic books have a heavy dose of religion-like entity summoning, evocation, and invocations, and it's hard to just skip by it - it's ubiquitous. However, pouring a libation to a deity doesn't cost much, and you suddenly have Constitutional protection.

 

[ahathoor]

Therefore, we can now conclude that sorcery resembles religion in many ways but is not the complete and true religion. Can we say this and agree on it, or are there other responses, opinions, and criticisms...?

I'm not sure what your position, the role of you having started this thread, or even the final "conclusion" really is.

I don't know what you mean by "complete and true religion" - I'd guess you mean Islam, based on some contextual clues, and the fact that in Muslim culture the word "religion" per definitionem singularly means Islam, but like... then be honest and say you are trying to convert people here.

No I don't think we can agree on the generalizations about "religion" or what God thinks or has said, nor do I feel like you made any attempt at summing up any of the thoughts brought in by others.

The thread has led to some really fascinating discussion, but I don't think you can expect or even hope for the general "agreement" on some "answer" that you may be hoping to get (or to spoonfeed the community).

 

[Firetree]

See my response: So, at the very least, we are looking at one of the common aspects—for minds are imprisoned in an iron cage from which the human path has been stripped away.

What ? That's you response to me questioning your ; '' leftists ... are always viewed as selfish and frightening people. ''

Why do you keep insisting your personal weird opinions apply 'across the board ' and for all people ??? #

Magic is multifaceted,

It IS .. so why do you restrict it so narrowly below then ?

... it constitutes human interference in the free will of others…

Thelemic magic supports the expression of will of others , it is its core precept .

harmful acts that may hurt the innocent—f

There is a vast field of magic that does no such thing . What about those traditions that are focused on d=self development and balance ?

Furthermore, it grants some people powers that are stronger and more extensive than those of others.

So does study, athletic training, martial arts practice , art school ... etc .

And also because it is an act detested by God.

Says some religion , that practices magic itself ! They just dont want the people to do it but reserve it for the priests and clergy .

That is how I understand it, while the other camp believes that the use of magic was practiced by monks, priests, and high Jewish priests. In fact, one of the most damaging claims spread was the idea that King Solomon himself used it, and also that Solomon allowed his followers the freedom to adopt or worship the idols of other nations…

This is precisely what Islam has completely rejected in the Qur’an, branding the priests themselves as having strayed from the true path of religion—following sorcery and demons and pursuing magic rather than worship, supplication, and invocation of the true God. This is also what your previous remarks confirmed…

Do you know what theurgy is ? Its a type of magic ;

Theurgy, or "divine work," is a specialized branch of ritual practice aimed at uniting the practitioner with the divine and purifying the soul rather than seeking material or profane gains

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Therefore, we can now conclude that sorcery resembles religion in many ways but is not the complete and true religion. Can we say this and agree on it, or are there other responses, opinions, and criticisms...?

See below ...

Post automatically merged: Friday at 8:58 AM

I'm not sure what your position, the role of you having started this thread, or even the final "conclusion" really is.

He started with a fake 'garnering of opinion' in order to do a mass quote and 'tech us' what he believs about 'magic' - which is a very narrow viewpoint .

I don't know what you mean by "complete and true religion" - I'd guess you mean Islam, based on some contextual clues, and the fact that in Muslim culture the word "religion" per definitionem singularly means Islam, but like... then be honest and say you are trying to convert people here.

Or try to prove by say so, that magic must be ( .... - his definition of 'bad stuff' .... ) so therefore wrong ... as Islam says . Yet he keeps writing about 'Islamic magic' .

No I don't think we can agree on the generalizations about "religion" or what God thinks or has said, nor do I feel like you made any attempt at summing up any of the thoughts brought in by others.

Well , there was the mass quote and refutation lecture

The thread has led to some really fascinating discussion, but I don't think you can expect or even hope for the general "agreement" on some "answer" that you may be hoping to get (or to spoonfeed the community).

Good one ! Yes that seems to be what he thinks he is doing ; 'spoon-feeding' and instructing us in 'the right way ' .

 

[Robert Ramsay]

I joined in this thread because it's a genuinely interesting question. Also, I was fully aware of @Angelkesfarl 's proselytising tendencies

As expected, he didn't want to address my viewpoint as it is 180 degrees away from his, and I don't blame him for that

 

[Angelkesfarl]

I should clarify my opinion somewhat, in that I believe as far as magic goes, religions are magical models, the same as any other magical model. I know that this is not a popular opinion.

There are magick techniques that don't require religion.

but I don't think you can expect or even hope for the general "agreement" on some "answer" that you may be hoping to get (or to spoonfeed the community).

Do you know what theurgy is ? Its a type of magic ;

I did not come here to spread Islam; this is not the place for that. I have expressed Islamic views and traditions simply to present a range of perspectives. Otherwise, the concept of “shim” itself is disputed; there are Jewish rabbis who deny it as a divine attribute from the outset, But can we focus on the question: Do we consider magic to be a non-religious act and therefore completely separable from religion? Note that we will find certain types of it that fall into this category, but it is not acceptable to say that magic is different or has a non-religious basis. As you yourselves have written, theosophy is a magical act and belongs to religion, as do the names of angels and the names of powers. We would be forced to separate them, and thus they would have no place here…?

But then, let’s say that while there are aspects of magic that do not require religion, which religion is it that does not require it? Even Wicca is, after all, a religion. This is yet another philosophical and doctrinal barrier we will encounter…
Veteran writer, there is no attack on your opinion, but it is limited to the form of religion and its classification, as well as the classification of magic. But I have a question: which came first, religion or magic?

Or are they—and here I mean religion and magic—like longitudes and latitudes, intertwined, creating a metaphysical perspective on things beyond human perception?

Or is this a kind of deliberate confusion created by sorcerers, blending magic with religion so that they appear as a single entity—since, at their core, both are based on the belief in obtaining benefit, whether from an intermediary or a higher entity?

Finally, I believe all these questions are genuine and touch on the very essence of how we view things. Let us not forget that every beginner or scholar who encounters this topic will either need to respond, ask a question, or find an answer to a pressing question that we all face first and foremost.
My aim here is not so much to impose my own point of view or perspective as it is to explore all the different paths, compare them, and draw conclusions—for we are human beings who possess the tools to judge things. I am part of humanity, and this is everyone’s right.


Translated with DeepL.com

 

[Robert Ramsay]

But I have a question: which came first, religion or magic?

In my opinion, magic. Religions, as far as magic goes, are codified magical models.

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 9:07 AM

But then, let’s say that while there are aspects of magic that do not require religion, which religion is it that does not require it?

which indeed?

 

[Firetree]

I did not come here to spread Islam; this is not the place for that. I have expressed Islamic views and traditions simply to present a range of perspectives. Otherwise, the concept of “shim” itself is disputed; there are Jewish rabbis who deny it as a divine attribute from the outset, But can we focus on the question: Do we consider magic to be a non-religious act and therefore completely separable from religion?

Again - it depends on what type of magic . I already made that clear but you chose to simply ignore what some people have contributed and continue to ask the same questions .

Note that we will find certain types of it that fall into this category, but it is not acceptable to say that magic is different or has a non-religious basis.

Some of it does . It can be totally non religious .

As you yourselves have written, theosophy is a magical act and belongs to religion, as do the names of angels and the names of powers. We would be forced to separate them, and thus they would have no place here…?

'Theosophy ' ? Theosophy is not ' a magical act' , it is a system of esoteric philosophy, religion and cosmology .

But then, let’s say that while there are aspects of magic that do not require religion, which religion is it that does not require it? Even Wicca is, after all, a religion. This is yet another philosophical and doctrinal barrier we will encounter…

All religions use a form of 'magic' .

Veteran writer, there is no attack on your opinion, but it is limited to the form of religion and its classification, as well as the classification of magic. But I have a question: which came first, religion or magic?

Or are they—and here I mean religion and magic—like longitudes and latitudes, intertwined, creating a metaphysical perspective on things beyond human perception?

No ; religion uses magic but magic need not use religion.

Or is this a kind of deliberate confusion created by sorcerers, blending magic with religion so that they appear as a single entity—since, at their core, both are based on the belief in obtaining benefit, whether from an intermediary or a higher entity?

Finally, I believe all these questions are genuine and touch on the very essence of how we view things. Let us not forget that every beginner or scholar who encounters this topic will either need to respond, ask a question, or find an answer to a pressing question that we all face first and foremost.

i doubt it, most will simply ignore this . . . you left that 'option' out .

My aim here is not so much to impose my own point of view or perspective as it is to explore all the different paths, compare them, and draw conclusions—for we are human beings who possess the tools to judge things. I am part of humanity, and this is everyone’s right.


Translated with DeepL.com

 

[iceiceice]

I think any religion to be taken seriously as a religion needs some aspect of what could be classified as magic, like prayers.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

In my opinion, magic. Religions, as far as magic goes, are codified magical models.

Post automatically merged: Saturday at 9:07 AM

which indeed?

If magic predates religion, then I have a question: Where did the spirits and angels of magic come from?

All religions use a form of 'magic' .

Likewise, are they one and the same, or are they two distinct things?

I think any religion to be taken seriously as a religion needs some aspect of what could be classified as magic, like prayers.

Does this mean that religion is the primary factor, and that magic is an aspect of it and is necessary?

 

[Robert Ramsay]

If magic predates religion, then I have a question: Where did the spirits and angels of magic come from?

IMO they are egregores. We built them, decided they were real, and they then started to take on a life of their own. I often quote the Thomas Theorem: "If men define a thing to be real, then its consequences ARE real". The kicker is that the consequences can be magical in nature, and thus appear to be created by 'the supernatural'.

As usual, I poot forth the disclaimer that I do not expect anyone to agree with me.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

IMO they are egregores. We built them, decided they were real, and they then started to take on a life of their own. I often quote the Thomas Theorem: "If men define a thing to be real, then its consequences ARE real". The kicker is that the consequences can be magical in nature, and thus appear to be created by 'the supernatural'.

As usual, I poot forth the disclaimer that I do not expect anyone to agree with me.

I agree with you that humans have invented many of these symbols, cloaked them in religious garb, and attributed magical powers, rituals, and methods of communication to them—when in reality they are simply markers for astronomical locations, earthly sites, or even esoteric meanings.
It seems we’ve finally agreed, man. Thank you.
But does this prove that magic arose as a product of movements that were originally religious in nature, and that religion, in this context, naturally predates magic?

 

[Robert Ramsay]

But does this prove that magic arose as a product of movements that were originally religious in nature, and that religion, in this context, naturally predates magic?

I don't think we're going to be proving anything very much

It's easy to imagine a religion inspired first and foremost by natural phenomena - lightning equals "sky god angry" - but then to imagine that you, as a person, could influence the sky god in any way - that is magical thinking.

I say that magic came first purely because it's a functional use of the human mind, and religion a construction thereof, but I can see there could be times and places where one or the other came first.

 

[Kepler]

It's easy to imagine a religion inspired first and foremost by natural phenomena - lightning equals "sky god angry" - but then to imagine that you, as a person, could influence the sky god in any way - that is magical thinking.

I say that magic came first purely because it's a functional use of the human mind, and religion a construction thereof, but I can see there could be times and places where one or the other came first.

That goes along with the modern anthropological view that animism was early humans' first attempt at a relational spiritual and physical cosmology, which philosophies and religions were later developed upon.

 

[Aeternus]

Is magic part of religion, or can it be separated from religion?
Hello, everyone. I wanted to start a discussion about magic and religion.
Is magic a product of religion?
Or is religion merely a veneer for magic, and does true magic not require religiosity?
Your opinions and experiences would be helpful.

Well, it depends on case. If one looks at the major religions of the world, or as they are known based on their founder Abraham; "Abrahamic religions", albeit their supposed denial of magic practices, they all are full to the brim with recorded magical practices, some detailed some not. For example, Christianity has the mention of the Bronze Snake that God commanded Moses to craft during the wilderness (Book of Numbers 21:4-9). The Serpent had healing properties and the person bit by a venomous snake was able to heal themselves just by looking at the snake.

In Islam, we have the Surah Al-Fatiha prayer who is recited to seek protection and recovery from illness.

In Judaism then comes the Mi Shebeirach prayer which means a communal prayer recited during Torah services asking God for refu'ah shleimah (complete healing) of both body and spirit.

I could extend longer on this but that would mean 10-20 or even more paragraphs as to how much mainstream religions actually have references, subtle and not-so-subtle-at-all references to magic.

Now, when it comes to whether magic is to be applied with religion, I think it depends more on the practitioner's choice. In my opinion, religion is what provides the starting point / background for magical practices, the exoteric side of things. The esoteric one comes then when someone wishes to know the hidden things behind the religion they may or may not practice, or are interested to practice. The idea is to strip away the useless political, dogmatic and power-limiting aspects that are dictated today by various modern "gurus" and phony practitioners of the occult that suffer from ego and power trips.

For example, one may have an eclectic path (multiple practices), and they can integrate reading Psalms (also found in Christianity), with Runes, Rosaries, and any other suitable methods. The craft is the result of what you, as the practicioner decide to put on the canvas called the path, essentially after receiving valuable spiritual insight that some form of practice from a religion will fit your work or not.

 

[Firetree]

If magic predates religion, then I have a question: Where did the spirits and angels of magic come from?

Zoroastrianism .... technically and in the textual traditions . They started as 'qualities of mind' ( Mainyu ) and, as a mind can have good or bad thoughts these qualities became 'good or bad' and it was realized there were specific types of 'good' qualities 'spenta mainyu' . But as time went on, and as people do , they became anthropomorphized because it is an innate human tendency to connect with pets, gods, and gadgets by viewing them through a familiar, human lens. But this changes the original form and understanding ( and particularly in this case , of Zoroastrianism , as when mainyu is interpreted as mind , the whole philosophy changes to something more like Buddhism , in its aspect as a 'science and understanding of the mind and consciousness' .

Likewise, are they one and the same, or are they two distinct things?

Religion and magic are two different things (if that is what you are asking ? ) ... that is why we have two very different names ( with different roots and etymology ) for them , they derive from completely different linguistic roots and historical concepts in Latin and Persian.

Does this mean that religion is the primary factor,

No.

and that magic is an aspect of it and is necessary?

Yes.

 

[ahathoor]

Zoroastrianism

really? that's where spirits came from?! like all of them? seriously?! wow, you really cracked the code, didn't you?

so what about the kami, the loa, the totems of the ojibwe, the devas of Hindi peoples, the daimons of Hellas, the shidhe of the Celts...? do i need to go on?

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 11:22 AM

i think looking around in the world and seeing the absolute multitude of spiritual practices, which do not conform to any clean division of religion or magic, the only valid response can be that magic and religion are arbitrary and culturally specific boundaries drawn on a terrain that is both and neither at the same time

 

[Hakon]

Is magic part of religion, or can it be separated from religion?
Hello, everyone. I wanted to start a discussion about magic and religion.
Is magic a product of religion?
Or is religion merely a veneer for magic, and does true magic not require religiosity?
Your opinions and experiences would be helpful.

I would say that magic and religion are deeply intertwined, but they are not identical, and neither one is necessarily dependent on the other.

Historically, the distinction between “magic” and “religion” is often much less clear than modern people imagine. Prayer, sacrifice, consecration, divination, invocation, healing, exorcism, the use of sacred names, talismans, and ritual purity can all appear within what we call religion, while many of the same practices can also be classified as magic depending on context.

For me, the important distinction is more about function and relationship than about the external form of the ritual.

Religion generally establishes a relationship between the practitioner and a sacred order: God, gods, spirits, cosmology, community, revelation, tradition, etc. Magic is more specifically concerned with operative interaction with that order - producing change, obtaining knowledge, establishing contact, consecrating something, influencing circumstances, or transforming the practitioner.

Because of that, religion can contain magic, but religion is not reducible to magic.

Likewise, magic can theoretically be practiced outside a formal religion. Someone can work with planetary forces, symbols, spirits, altered states, or ritual techniques without belonging to a religious institution or accepting a complete theology.

However, I am less convinced that magic can ever be completely separated from something resembling a worldview.

The moment we say that a ritual works because angels exist, because planets possess intelligences, because consciousness interacts with symbols, because spirits respond to offerings, or even because the unconscious responds to ritual structures, we have already adopted some kind of metaphysical or philosophical framework.

So perhaps the real question is not whether magic requires religion, but whether magic can exist without cosmology.

Personally, I do not think it can.

Even supposedly “secular” magic usually rests upon assumptions about consciousness, causality, symbolism, spirits, nature, or reality itself. Those assumptions may not constitute religion in the conventional sense, but they still form the intellectual and metaphysical ground upon which the magical practice operates.

 

[Ohana]

I agree with you that humans have invented many of these symbols, cloaked them in religious garb, and attributed magical powers, rituals, and methods of communication to them—when in reality they are simply markers for astronomical locations, earthly sites, or even esoteric meanings.
It seems we’ve finally agreed, man. Thank you.
But does this prove that magic arose as a product of movements that were originally religious in nature, and that religion, in this context, naturally predates magic?

I think that this question is similar to a situation of what came first the chicken or the egg. From my perspective the egg came first because from an evolutionary perspective what we define as a chicken would have probably have its first egg laid by something that we do not classify as a chicken but is similar enough till eventually the chicken was born from the similar non-chicken.

I think the same is true for this question. I think magick came first then religion but what started magick practices was something similar enough to religion but from our understanding wasn't. It helped create magick but its not from our modern perspective we would call religion even if its really similar. Thats what I think atleast.

Magick and religion I think are tied since both involved ritual, a good deal of symbolism and symbol work, and other similarities but to go back to previous metaphor might be like chickens and eggs in relation to one another.

Eggs can grow into chickens so like magick based systems and thought can grow into religions but later down the line the chicken or I guess rooster can reject magick or I guess egg laying?? Or letting eggs grow into new systems.

Its up to the new religious system/people in it what it wants to do and I think no matter what religion despite its origins maybe being magick doesn't have to include it but it can and in certain parts of religions or entire religions it does. It just depends on the religion.

Magick also doesn't have to even lead to a new system in this metaphor and sometimes the egg stays an egg and then is just used to help sustain others and nothing more nothing less.

I admit this metaphor is a little strange and might not be others people perspective on it but this is just how I thought best to relate the two together.