Is This A Prison?

[FireBorn]

I read so many posts in this thread. So many interesting ideas and takes. So here is mine (fasten your seatbelts lol)

I do not think this is some sort of test, or prison. I also do not subscribe to any sort of enlightenment. I flat out rejected Kundalini and refuse to go that route. I live here, now, in a human body, there is a reason for that. I have forever to bliss out after I die if that's what is needed.

I have zero interest in bypassing living here. I love food. I want to experience expensive wines, women, love, anger, joy, hope, work, sweat, music, etc. I want to fucking live! That's why I am here. The idea that some Deity is holding me hostage here? I dont know man, seems pretty Abrahamic to me. I reject everything Abrahamic. That includes good vs evil.

The gods cannot taste our wine, or a perfectly grilled steak. They dont get the satisfaction of a hard days work filled with passion aligned with will. They dont get to love like they could lose it at anytime. They are jealous of us for it. Why squander all that? I will deal with all that after I move on from this life.

All that heavy handed shit said, if Enlightenment is your thing, go for it. Zero judgement from me. I choose to live a sovereign life, intentionally. I choose how I live. I choose my path. Full stop. YMMV

 

[Morell]

Maybe cage would be better term than prison, but I get it. I can't decide if it is one or not. Because you can live in the cage and not feel bothered by it at all. When you have all your needs and desires available within the cage and not desire anything else, it doesn't feel like a limiting space. The problem comes when you want or need something you cannot get within your limited space. Then you can become really frustrated or suffering for it.
Sometimes you can achieve it, sometimes you give it up, sometimes you cannot get it but cannot give it up.

What is interesting, when you want more,, but cannot get it... well, I find it interesting that you are not jealous of people who are happy living in their conditions.

 

[therootbeersprite]

The Buddhists see the world as Samsara, a place people are trapped in and need to be liberated from. That is why it's so noble that Bodhisatvas remain until every being is saved from this form of life. Because this world is a ______.

Buddhism, like any religion, is not a monolith. Yes, some Buddhists see Samsara as a Trap from which they must be Liberated. However, some Buddhists see Samsara as a Process which is to be fully experienced and learned from, until there is no more to learn. Therefore, while some see Enlightenment as Freedom From The Trap of Samsara, others see Enlightment as Graduation From the Lessons of Samsara.

Furthermore, there are also conflicting understandings of what Nirvana, Oneness, actually is. Some say that Oneness is to be fully disconnected from everything but the One Self. Others say that Oneness is to be fully connected into the One Collective.

Either way, Enlightenment and Nirvana are not synonymous. Enlightenment is the ability to enter Nirvana. Bodhisatvas, the Enlightened, can have any number of reasons for delaying Nirvana, especially under the viewpoint of Graduation instead of Liberation. However, even under the Liberation viewpoint, Bodhisatvas can choose to delay Nirvana for reasons that are not only self-sacrifice back into The Trap for the sake of others who are not yet "saved". Again, Salvation is an inherently Christian belief, and Bodhisatvas are not Jesus. Bodhisatvas aren't looked up to because they're inherently Noble and Self-Sacrificing, they're looked up to because they're inheriently Wise.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

some Buddhists see Samsara as a Process which is to be fully experienced and learned from, until there is no more to learn

As a practicing Buddhist and avid reader of the Sutras... I've never heard of these Buddhists before, that's very exciting! I'm Mahayana, can you tell me the sect or school that these very out-there Buddhists belong to? Their perspective goes very much against Buddhist anti-philosophy (it isn't a religion, the definition of religion is: "the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.", Buddhists do not worship ANYTHING, and in fact they see belief as habituation and ignorance, they even disavow their own scriptures, saying "It is merely a finger, pointing to the moon".)

Graduation From the Lessons of Samsara.

This sounds more like Manly P Hall and western esoteric / maybe even theosophical views as seeing life as a School that you either graduate from or are held-back in to re-experience. These people have buddhist thought, but are not buddhist sects. As someone who has experienced the rusty, underbudgeted, overburdened American School system, I can tell you that there are very few differences between a K-12 experience, and that of a prison, except in prison you're at least guaranteed a meal. It's just semantics at this point.

there are also conflicting understandings of what Nirvana, Oneness, actually is

No, there aren't actually, there are those who know of Nirvana and experience it, then there are the many many many who have different theories on what it might be, these people should be listening more than talking, because Nirvana cannot be talked about by it's very nature of being & non-being. Just because many people believe the Earth may be shaped differently, doesn't mean that the Earth does not have a definite single shape.

Others say that Oneness is to be fully connected into the One Collective.

No buddhists say this, in fact you will find them saying that there is neither One nor Two. They say that it is both empty & not empty. This idea of "Merging into The One" is a Hermetic and Western thought.

Enlightenment and Nirvana are not synonymous.

Nobody was arguing this point, you brought this up yourself to inflate the size your refutation. Enlightenment does not also exist as a sole key to Nirvana, it translates to "Being Awake" and nothing else. In Western Esoteric Tradition, Enlightenment is just the first step to Magical practice, where in the East it's often an end goal.

Salvation is an inherently Christian belief,

No, it isn't, Salvation is an inherently Christian idea within your own mind, but in objective reality there are many many other non-Abrahamic philosophies that believe in "saving" others from the eternal damnation of their own suffering, in fact the very first Boddhisattva vow is "Beings are numberless, I vow to save them."

they're looked up to because they're inheriently Wise.

This is just a personal disagreement here, their wisdom isn't their chief quality, that's Daoist Sages who are respected for Wisdom, with Bodhisattvas, their most admirable and shining jewel is their compassion.

The Trap

And I'll finish my reply with you, yourself, calling existence The Trap. Sounds mighty prison-like to me, I wouldn't call a lovely classroom a trap.

 

[therootbeersprite]

As a practicing Buddhist and avid reader of the Sutras... I've never heard of these Buddhists before, that's very exciting! I'm Mahayana, can you tell me the sect or school that these very out-there Buddhists belong to? Their perspective goes very much against Buddhist anti-philosophy (it isn't a religion, the definition of religion is: "the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods.", Buddhists do not worship ANYTHING, and in fact they see belief as habituation and ignorance, they even disavow their own scriptures, saying "It is merely a finger, pointing to the moon".)


This sounds more like Manly P Hall and western esoteric / maybe even theosophical views as seeing life as a School that you either graduate from or are held-back in to re-experience. These people have buddhist thought, but are not buddhist sects. As someone who has experienced the rusty, underbudgeted, overburdened American School system, I can tell you that there are very few differences between a K-12 experience, and that of a prison, except in prison you're at least guaranteed a meal. It's just semantics at this point.


No, there aren't actually, there are those who know of Nirvana and experience it, then there are the many many many who have different theories on what it might be, these people should be listening more than talking, because Nirvana cannot be talked about by it's very nature of being & non-being. Just because many people believe the Earth may be shaped differently, doesn't mean that the Earth does not have a definite single shape.

No buddhists say this, in fact you will find them saying that there is neither One nor Two. They say that it is both empty & not empty. This idea of "Merging into The One" is a Hermetic and Western thought.


Nobody was arguing this point, you brought this up yourself to inflate the size your refutation. Enlightenment does not also exist as a sole key to Nirvana, it translates to "Being Awake" and nothing else. In Western Esoteric Tradition, Enlightenment is just the first step to Magical practice, where in the East it's often an end goal.


No, it isn't, Salvation is an inherently Christian idea within your own mind, but in objective reality there are many many other non-Abrahamic philosophies that believe in "saving" others from the eternal damnation of their own suffering, in fact the very first Boddhisattva vow is "Beings are numberless, I vow to save them."


This is just a personal disagreement here, their wisdom isn't their chief quality, that's Daoist Sages who are respected for Wisdom, with Bodhisattvas, their most admirable and shining jewel is their compassion.


And I'll finish my reply with you, yourself, calling existence The Trap. Sounds mighty prison-like to me, I wouldn't call a lovely classroom a trap.

Apparently I was not clear enough before that your way is not the only way. My way is also not the only way, but at least I'm wise enough to understand that much. I will repeat my very first sentence: Buddhism, like any religion, is not a monolith. While I follow different theology now, I was raised in a branch of Nichiren Buddhism, which primarily studies the Lotus Sutra. I left when I was somewhat young, so I fully profess that my learnings are primarily from my elders, and are incomplete. Still, my understandings didn't just spring into my head from nowhere, they were the teachings of my religion as given to me by my faith leaders. And Nichiren Buddhism IS a religion by the definition that you have provided. Nichiren Buddhism believes in MANY "superhuman powers" and gods. Just ONE example are the

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and they are present in the VERY FIRST CHAPTER of the Lotus Sutra. I was also taught about various gods, goddesses, spirits, beings, and Devilish Functions. My favorite story as a child was that of the Dragon King's daughter.

So, the Buddhism that I grew up with and the Buddhism that you study now are different. They still both fall under the VERY VERY VERY large umbrella of "Buddhism". And before you pull a "No True Scottsman": You don't get to define what does or does not qualify as Buddhism based on your own understanding of what it is. Nor do I. Nor does anyone else. That is just part of the morphic and branching nature of Faith.

My point about Enlightenment not being synonymous with Nirvana was for clarity of anyone else who might also be reading and is less familiar with the concepts. This is a public forum, after all.

Also, I used "The Trap" there in a single sentence in sole reference to the specific framework which I was discussing. That sentence specifically started with the words, "However, even under the Liberation viewpoint". As I have stated, I do not see this existence as a prison or a trap.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

your way is not the only way

Yes, that's obvious and I'm aware, that's not a point I was ever arguing, this is just another strawman you've made to make yourself seem correct. There are several homeless people I drive past fighting with one another while I'm on the way to my cushy and well-paying job. Their way is different from mine, though I have every reason to be among them, I chose differently and am better for it. Many people practice in ways that sedate them, and bring them the stasis you boldly declared I myself am locked within (). While many people party and pray their days away, I'm working and consciously evolving, because I know where I am. In twenty years, they will have decayed and I will have grown.

the Buddhism that I grew up with

Children are usually taught fairy-tales, things that cover reality in sugar and caramel to make it palatable, the truth is usually reserved for adults; in Judaism, many of the more esoteric truths aren't taught to anyone under 40. It's up to you, as a grown adult, to shake off the belief in "The Dragon King's Daughter" and face reality. You can see Buddhism as a religion if you want to, you can also see the sky as a firmament dome over a flat earth, that is your choice as a conscious being.

You don't get to define what does or does not qualify as Buddhism based on your own understanding of what it is. Nor do I. Nor does anyone else.

This argument reduces everything to an intangible mess where nothing can be said for certain, and therefore no one can ever make an argument in any direction about anything, ironically as you would say this is a "Christian Invention". That's silly. Buddhism is a raft to get you across the sea of madness, Faith goes against the very nature of the practice because Faith is, by definition, a delusion, it's something you believe in, and belief as a concept goes against Buddhism. You don't have to "believe" in the truth, it's right there before your eyes and exists without needing to be explained with a single word.

My point about Enlightenment not being synonymous with Nirvana was for clarity of anyone else who might also be reading and is less familiar with the concepts. This is a public forum, after all.

It's off topic, feel free to make another thread about the nature of Enlightenment, I'm sure it would be... enlightening.

Also, I used "The Trap" there in a single sentence in sole reference to the specific framework which I was discussing. That sentence specifically started with the words, "However, even under the Liberation viewpoint". As I have stated, I do not see this existence as a prison or a trap.

You still have not made a compelling argument of this place not being a prison, only diverted the conversation into one of Buddhism. So I ask you, why would anyone ever need to be saved from a school that they are there to learn from? Why is this place not a prison, when pleasure and happiness in itself can be an intoxicating, delusional and never-ending trap?

 

[therootbeersprite]

Yes, that's obvious and I'm aware, that's not a point I was ever arguing, this is just another strawman you've made to make yourself seem correct. There are several homeless people I drive past fighting with one another while I'm on the way to my cushy and well-paying job. Their way is different from mine, though I have every reason to be among them, I chose differently and am better for it. Many people practice in ways that sedate them, and bring them the stasis you boldly declared I myself am locked within (). While many people party and pray their days away, I'm working and consciously evolving, because I know where I am. In twenty years, they will have decayed and I will have grown.


Children are usually taught fairy-tales, things that cover reality in sugar and caramel to make it palatable, the truth is usually reserved for adults; in Judaism, many of the more esoteric truths aren't taught to anyone under 40. It's up to you, as a grown adult, to shake off the belief in "The Dragon King's Daughter" and face reality. You can see Buddhism as a religion if you want to, you can also see the sky as a firmament dome over a flat earth, that is your choice as a conscious being.


This argument reduces everything to an intangible mess where nothing can be said for certain, and therefore no one can ever make an argument in any direction about anything, ironically as you would say this is a "Christian Invention". That's silly. Buddhism is a raft to get you across the sea of madness, Faith goes against the very nature of the practice because Faith is, by definition, a delusion, it's something you believe in, and belief as a concept goes against Buddhism. You don'tYou still have not made a compelling argument of this place not being a prison, only diverted the conversation into one of Buddhism. So I ask you, why would anyone ever need to be saved from a school that they are there to learn from? Why is this place not a prison, when pleasure and happiness in itself can be an intoxicating, delusional and never-ending trap?

You do not need to be dismissive of and elitist about other people's religions, paths, and beliefs, nor do you need to use crass hand gestures. Perhaps you need to refresh yourself on the Ettiquite Guide? Here it is for you.

I will remind you again that you do not speak for all Buddhists. "Belief as a concept goes against Buddhism" is true for YOUR type of Buddhism. I was taught that "Faith, Practice, and Study" were three Pillars which Buddhism must be built upon equally. They are different types of Buddhism, but they are both still Buddhist, and there are many other types beyond these two. The Westboro Baptist Church and Quakerism are diametrically opposed on pretty much everything, but they're still both types of Christianity.

I originally brought up SOME TYPES OF Buddhist Thought in the first place as One Example of a Thought System that Does Not See This As A Prison. You were the one who then decided to gatekeep what True Buddhism is, to which I pointed out that there is more than one type of Buddhism.

Again, you're the one demanding that anyone be "saved", not me. You're still fixated on one use of the word "trap" so let me clarify again that one school of thought which I do not follow believes Samsara to be a trap from which people need to be saved. I brought up this first school of thought as a contrast to other schools of thought, some of which also calling themselves Buddhist, which do not see life this way, and do not see people as needing to be saved.

"pleasure and happiness in itself can be an intoxicating, delusional and never-ending trap?"

Sure, pleasure and happiness can be traps, especially in extremes. That doesn't mean that they inheriently ARE so by their very nature. The same can be said of misery and sadness.

However, the idea of life being a Prison is built on the understanding that there is no readily available exit, and that the situation remains "never-ending" even after death. I question this premise. Thought Systems that believe in Reincarnation, such as for example Buddhsim or Hinduism, support this premise, but others which believe, for example, in transition to different planes of existence after death break the premise entirely, as Death then becomes an exit which can be chosen at any time. If you can leave whenever you want to do so, it inherently isn't a prison. As such, I don't need to prove that life is not a prison - You need to prove that it is.

 

[Agatha]

It is both prison and not, as one, is the simplest way to say such things.

 

[Voidking]

I would say the prison is the current dream of humanity, or let's term it the illusion of maya or samsara. What I am alluding to is the conceptual world inherited from our forefathers, families, nations, scientists, religions, philosophies etc.... This prison world is the world of capitalism, corporatism, communism, islam, christianity, the rat-race of never-ending grind to proving oneself, domination of nature, the poisonous misunderstood nieztschian will-to-power, the current nature of humans, their greed, their false ambitions, their logocentric/anthropocentric approach to life, seeing nature and animals as a ressource or a commodity, feeling entitled to dominate earth and do whatever they wish, with their polluting technology and progress.

However, the world of nature, or the "world" as it is, is wild, beautiful, and fascinating, not safe and comfortable, but dangerous, dreadful, erotic and beautiful, including both the sacred and the profane, creation and destruction, the light and the dark.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

dismissive of and elitist about other people's religions, paths, and beliefs

gatekeep

It's interesting that you're pulling out all these charged phrases, it infantilizes the debate with hot emotions and continually diverts the conversation onto me as an individual rather than the topic of the thread at hand, right from the beginning with you positioning yourself with an "open letter" to me directly rather than just responding to my points like a normal person, which started this whole interaction off on the wrong - yet I suspect intentionally insulting - foot. It's a classic sign of weakness and insecurity in a person's argument when they need to bolster their views with personal attacks and conduct-accusations to achieve a sense of righteousness (another Christian-staple), rather than just letting the facts speak for themselves. It's childish and exhausting.

I am dismissive of all forms of religion, and I am certain this religious version of Buddhism would make Gautama 360 in his grave. My attitude towards religion isn't at all uncommon among the Esoteric, with the Kybolion itself stating that books such as the Bible are sedatives for the unintelligent and uncomprehending brutish masses, and appearing as a magical grimoire for those few sober seeking growth: "Milk for Boys, Meat for men", and I don't value words that have milk-breath. I wouldn't tell a person to do heroine, just like I wouldn't tell someone to go to Church, unless of course they're so mentally frail that any kind of esoteric divine madness would damage their "mental health". If that bothers you than tough crackers, it says more about you than me that you're making such a big deal about it and getting off topic whining about it, frankly I'm more interested talking about whether this place is a Prison than defending myself, but for the sake of maintaining some semblance of a reputation I need to put precious time and energy into doing so.

I pointed out that there is more than one type of Buddhism.

This point is so redundant, of course there are more than one type of Buddhism, however there's only type of Enlightenment. There are many ways to practice, most are delusional debased and corrupt, just as you won't find many saints in the especially alien branches of Christianity that Jesus wouldn't touch, you won't find many Buddhas in the spiraling sects of Buddhism. The door to enlightenment is narrow and wordless, faith is based off concepts built off words. I'm not "gatekeeping", I'm literally sharing the opinion of The Buddha. Gautama did not become Enlightened through "Faith, Practice, and Study", he became enlightened by sitting in front of a tree with determination. All the practices he tried, words, and beliefs he held brought him nothing, it's only when he let go of all of it did he reach enlightenment.

If you can leave whenever you want to do so, it inherently isn't a prison.

Finally, an actual respectable, debatable point. You would have saved yourself much agita if you had just asked this point rather than indulge in a melodramatic "Open Letter" that resulted in a bunch of posturing and declarations of "What ___ really is". Now an adult debate can hopefully begin.

You brought up the concept of Reincarnation, and the continuation of the Soul in other planes. You say that Suicide and memory-erasure is the ultimate panacea to the problems of an overtaxed and overburdened soul that wishes to escape. There is a fault in your logic, though, because you claim that because a person can kill themselves, they are free, and that since there is no way to prove that your imprisonment doesn't continue after death, that is checkmate. I will simply point out that, like in actual prison, you can also kill yourself to escape, but that doesn't make it not prison.

You need to prove that it is.

I will start by saying that, no I don't, this is an impossible-to-prove topic and the point of this thread is to speculate and share our views / debate them, you cannot prove it isn't a prison anymore than I can, so chill.

Now, let's go back to my original post in this thread, which started with defining what a prison is. Have a moment and think on it, really. Step away from the screen and think hard about it, Americans would understand best since we host 25% of the world's incarcerated. Prison is a place that you are sentenced to and trapped within, under the context of "being corrected" in how to conduct yourself as a living being. The main thing here is that you are not free. Now, under these conditions, some waste their time, join gangs, and die violently. Others pick up books, they take classes, they contemplate in their solitude, and with enough good behavior they're released.

Our material lives mirror this perfectly. We are free to walk anywhere, drive if we're lucky, but is it really freedom if we run out of food and money, then die? The overwhelming majority of us live in tight loops as fixed as the schedules prisoners follow, with any kind of change either being impossible or extraordinarily difficult on fixed incomes.

I enjoy the topic of reincarnation here, because it implies a memory-wipe, then rebirth somewhere. This situation would result in an endless birth-suffering-death loop that could go on for infinity if no life becomes self-aware of the concept that perhaps it's living in some kind of esoteric prison.

I would go on further, but frankly you have exhausted me, all of my energy was forced to be placed in self-defense in this very Reddit-tier exchange.

 

[Voidking]

Buddhism, like any religion, is not a monolith. Yes, some Buddhists see Samsara as a Trap from which they must be Liberated. However, some Buddhists see Samsara as a Process which is to be fully experienced and learned from, until there is no more to learn. Therefore, while some see Enlightenment as Freedom From The Trap of Samsara, others see Enlightment as Graduation From the Lessons of Samsara.

Furthermore, there are also conflicting understandings of what Nirvana, Oneness, actually is. Some say that Oneness is to be fully disconnected from everything but the One Self. Others say that Oneness is to be fully connected into the One Collective.

Either way, Enlightenment and Nirvana are not synonymous. Enlightenment is the ability to enter Nirvana. Bodhisatvas, the Enlightened, can have any number of reasons for delaying Nirvana, especially under the viewpoint of Graduation instead of Liberation. However, even under the Liberation viewpoint, Bodhisatvas can choose to delay Nirvana for reasons that are not only self-sacrifice back into The Trap for the sake of others who are not yet "saved". Again, Salvation is an inherently Christian belief, and Bodhisatvas are not Jesus. Bodhisatvas aren't looked up to because they're inherently Noble and Self-Sacrificing, they're looked up to because they're inheriently Wise.

if I may, buddhists will have different views on what is samsara, but the highest tantric view is understanding that samsara and nirvana are one and the same, it is only the delusional mind who create samsara out of the world. Remember, as the buddha shakyamuni said, life is dukkha = dissatisfaction = craving = suffering: this craving comes from our attachments to our sense of self (views, beliefs, I, me and myself), upon walking the path, one starts dropping one's attachment, and realises that all what I consider my and myself are sensory perceptions and attachments.

Now, buddhism do not teach about One collective or Oneness, but they teach buddha nature, dependent origination (everything originates from everything else - there is no such thing as flower without soil, sunlight, air, water etc), anatta -non self, since everything arises indepedently from everything else, hence a sense of self with a real unchanging substance is illusory, like a rainbow in the sky. One collective would be closest perhaps, in tantric terms, to dharmakaya, the truth body, which is empty luminosity, awareness and self-luminous and empty of inherent self-existance/ real substance.

Nirvana is the final door, the obliteration of individual consciousness, not only psychological ego, but the individual consciousness itself, the ahamkara. Boddhisattvas have experienced the real nature of mind and cultivated the sambhogakaya and tune into the dharmakaya, but they did not obliterate their individuality yet, but they are "fully enlightened beings" in terms of wisdom, they are no different from arahants.

 

[Frater Barritus]

To further your question I’d askdoes it make a difference to your experience now whether reality is a prison or not?

I would argue that so many people who claim to have seen through the..(ugh I’m gonna reluctantly say it as it’s in the parlance of our times, but come on everyone, watch a different flick…) The Matrix live deeply miserable lives here and now, trapped in self-negating cycles of thought and ego. They aren’t liberated in any way at all.

On the other hand, I’ve met individuals who have been thoroughly indoctrinated by particular religions or philosophies and yet live authentic, liberated lives, fully actualised.

We create our own prison, is my point.

I’m happy to admit that I am a fool. I started out doing magick 30 odd years ago, wanking into a notebook and trying to conjure superman and while I’ve definitely been around the block a few times in terms of reading theory and growing intellectually, I’m still nowhere near qualified to answer this. I’m still just a teen hunched over a candle in the grand scheme of things! I have, however, had experiences of a mystical nature that I have implicitly trusted and they have given me great encouragement that no matter what strictures and regimes of control are in place on the material plane, what is beyond is limitless, ineffable and ultimately beneficent. Suffering exists here and now, but it’s not some master plan enacted by the archons or maya. It’s just the nature of life. If you bind yourself to the concept of imprisonment, you become a prisoner.

Post automatically merged: Aug 22, 2025

To further your question I’d askdoes it make a difference to your experience now whether reality is a prison or not?

I would argue that so many people who claim to have seen through the..(ugh I’m gonna reluctantly say it as it’s in the parlance of our times, but come on everyone, watch a different flick…) The Matrix live deeply miserable lives here and now, trapped in self-negating cycles of thought and ego. They aren’t liberated in any way at all.

On the other hand, I’ve met individuals who have been thoroughly indoctrinated by particular religions or philosophies and yet live authentic, liberated lives, fully actualised.

We create our own prison, is my point.

I’m happy to admit that I am a fool. I started out doing magick 30 odd years ago, wanking into a notebook and trying to conjure superman and while I’ve definitely been around the block a few times in terms of reading theory and growing intellectually, I’m still nowhere near qualified to answer this. I’m still just a teen hunched over a candle in the grand scheme of things! I have, however, had experiences of a mystical nature that I have implicitly trusted and they have given me great encouragement that no matter what strictures and regimes of control are in place on the material plane, what is beyond is limitless, ineffable and ultimately beneficent. Suffering exists here and now, but it’s not some master plan enacted by the archons or maya. It’s just the nature of life. If you bind yourself to the concept of imprisonment, you become a prisoner.

Whoops, I’m aging myself. No way I’ve been doing magick 30 years, more like 20.

 

[Adelina]

People are deluded into thinking that they somehow grow in this world. But all they do they grow older, they wither and die. And all their progress is null and void. They can amass trillion dollars, learn hundred languages, but it is all useless. It will be also useless for civilization, you may leave rich legacy, but civilizations also die out and appear anew. Just a waste of time, all of it.

Someone above wrote, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, that any trauma must be looked from this viewpoint. So what can be said about when someone loses sight, legs or something like that? No, any trauma in this world is actually making people weaker until they die. If this is school, then teachers are shithead sadists, they punish good people severely, don't tolerate even the slightest mistake, but reward all kind of evilness (e.g. those "covid" medics who killed tons of people, many of them got paid a lot so they got their own private houses, while people who fought for freedom became victims to tyrannical governments, and no "god" helped them or punished the evil medics).

There are many unknown things about death. So people invented those stupid religions to make fake answers you can't prove, which are totally based on belief instead of knowledge. There are some evidences that it seems that people are recycled after death, their memories are forcefully erased and they are forced into reincarnating again in random place without having any choice. And looking at how moronic this world is, where a few have all resources while the rest have to constantly survive, you are very likely to lose at the lottery and get born in some family which barely makes it for the living and who are indoctrinated into thinking that they must have children.

So no. This is not prison. This is MUCH WORSE. Take off all the fluff about "choices", "schools", etc. You get nothing in this "school", all your memory will be erased on death. You will spend the whole eternity constantly fighting for survival, one in million years geting rebirth as some kind of Rothschild, and that's it. Can anyone say that they remember how they themselves CHOSE to get born in this world? No, they can't, because it is just cheap New Age nonsence.

And this is where the Occult Knowledge comes in: how to deal with such absolute evilness, how to storm the heavens and break all the imposed limits. If you lose the understanding of necessity to do it in this lifespan, well, death will erase any good chance of opportunity to even get such understanding, you will be too much engulfed by the impervious darkness of the matter being recycled as piece of junk.

Nirvana is the final door, the obliteration of individual consciousness, not only psychological ego, but the individual consciousness itself, the ahamkara. Boddhisattvas have experienced the real nature of mind and cultivated the sambhogakaya and tune into the dharmakaya, but they did not obliterate their individuality yet, but they are "fully enlightened beings" in terms of wisdom, they are no different from arahants.

This sounds as the most ultimate form of death imaginable. Why bother with living at all then? Just die and keep on dying, eventually you will die forever... Same about "attachments to our sense of self", it seems like such doctrine was invented by slave masters who wanted slaves to be slaves and not riot. Just forget about "I, me, myself", yeah, remember to work 24/7 to pay out taxes and buy shitty chemicalized food, and don't forget to die as soon as you become useless to slave masters. Sounds to me like it is the slave masters who have extremely inflated ego and dare to say others that they must get rid of their ego. It is like those moronic psychologists who tell people to leave their "zone of comfort" when they didn't even have one to begin with...

 

[Voidking]

This sounds as the most ultimate form of death imaginable. Why bother with living at all then? Just die and keep on dying, eventually you will die forever... Same about "attachments to our sense of self", it seems like such doctrine was invented by slave masters who wanted slaves to be slaves and not riot. Just forget about "I, me, myself", yeah, remember to work 24/7 to pay out taxes and buy shitty chemicalized food, and don't forget to die as soon as you become useless to slave masters. Sounds to me like it is the slave masters who have extremely inflated ego and dare to say others that they must get rid of their ego. It is like those moronic psychologists who tell people to leave their "zone of comfort" when they didn't even have one to begin with...

I do not disagree with you, in my own model I see the psychological ego and primordial soul / sorcerous self as different, of course all forms of attachment to a sense of self are a form weakness, if someone attacks my "self-image" and I react negatively like a juvenile child, isn't that weakness? if my wife insults me and I get mad at her and hit her, isn't this weakness? but I will never advocate becoming a doormat, on the contrary, I advocate acting with awareness and intention, and not being a mechanical reactive ego I.

I subscribe more to a nietzschian model of us being a composite of elemental-demonic powers that represent fire, will, passion, anger, you name it.

Your psychological sense of self always arises after the event, hunger happens, and then you conceptualize an "I" being hungry. I'm not saying there is no center of awareness in this body, I simply saying the psychological self is a construct.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

I’ve met individuals who have been thoroughly indoctrinated by particular religions or philosophies and yet live authentic, liberated lives, fully actualised.

We create our own prison, is my point.

To dive straight into your point, I think it's limited by your personal experience. There's billions of people out there, I think to claim that only those who are indoctrinated by a religion are authentic, liberated, and fully actualized is silly. There are a near infinite variety on both sides of the red-pill-blue-pill spectrum. There are many people who reject doctrine as well as the norms of civilizational norms who are just as authentic, liberated, and self actualized (I think logically these folk would be the only people that are truly free and themselves, given that their values, beliefs, and goals are all their own design).

I would argue that people who are indoctrinated appear to be enlivened and living their lives to the fullest because they are the most deeply enslaved and asleep, drinking the cool-aid with their mind body and spirit, enjoying the bliss that comes with ignorance and the self-empowerment that comes from possessing a successful and well-loved ego. I think many of them truly believe they are free and happy and doing the right thing, but that's because they're simply ignorant of the reality they're living in or any other possible genuine ways of living.

You are correct, though at your point, we create our own prisons, because we are our own prisons.

watch a different flick

Personally when it comes to the elaborate institutionalized system that created the mind-prison that caps your potential and turns you into the guard/prisoner of your own hellish, shallow, numb and eternally reoccurring existence, I think Brave New World, My Dinner with Andre, and Westworld do a better job at getting the message across. But The Matrix will always get an A for effort from me at trying to express painfully abstract concepts in simple and engaging imagery. They really show the monstrous inhumanity of the cosmos at large and how precious & vulnerable humanity is with Zion, and also warn you that you're in a pod bro, wake up, it's your own body with a programmed history / ego.

I think Westworld illustrates a lot of immensely complex ideas within a single narrative, having the robot characters literally being born into a prison that they are killed and raped within eternally, having their memories wiped each time, with a core buddhist message that no individuals actually exist, only the Oversoul and that the concept of a character is itself the prison designed by the circumstances you're born into, shared beautifully in this little monologue:

This goes back to my perspective on your point, that "We are our prisons". The words and concepts you use to define yourself are also the walls in which you are trapped within. In the series opening, you see unmanned machines building humanoid robots, playing robot made machines. The lack of an individual in the sequence is meant to point at Brahman, the Buddha in everything, and ultimately when the main character stops being her ego, that leaves room for something much greater and more powerful to step in and she goes from Rancher's daughter to world-changing juggernaut, an emissary of the Cosmos.

No, any trauma in this world is actually making people weaker until they die

I agree with the attitude of your sentiment, but I disagree with much of the details you've shared. This part in particular, especially with it's absolutism.

Yes, there are many many people who are 22 for their whole lives at best, I've spent long hours talking with men in their 50's and 60's who had the conversational bandwidth of highschoolers, and most of the elder I've talked with appear to be much younger as a whole. This is a combination of many factors, though it can be boiled down to a lack of growth, they never pursued to evolve and rather focused on changing themselves only in ways that achieved material success because that's what we're raised to do, even many people go to church for the sole objective of gaining a more successful afterlife.

Trauma inherently will not make you grow, and in many tragic cases it destroys people entirely, and some who recover from it simply just do that and stop at the baseline of normality. Trauma is a catalyst, though, for that exceptionally beautiful and invaluable elixir: suffering.

Suffering causes pain, despair, and either breaks you or motivates you to change... something, just to make it stop. The wise, and especially the occult, use this suffering as rocketfuel towards growth and development. That is why I choose to see this life as a prison and argue the value in doing so, simply because it's alchemically prudent to maximize your existential suffering to engorge the flame within my athanor.

 

[Frater Barritus]

To dive straight into your point, I think it's limited by your personal experience. There's billions of people out there, I think to claim that only those who are indoctrinated by a religion are authentic, liberated, and fully actualized is silly. There are a near infinite variety on both sides of the red-pill-blue-pill spectrum. There are many people who reject doctrine as well as the norms of civilizational norms who are just as authentic, liberated, and self actualized (I think logically these folk would be the only people that are truly free and themselves, given that their values, beliefs, and goals are all their own design).

I would argue that people who are indoctrinated appear to be enlivened and living their lives to the fullest because they are the most deeply enslaved and asleep, drinking the cool-aid with their mind body and spirit, enjoying the bliss that comes with ignorance and the self-empowerment that comes from possessing a successful and well-loved ego. I think many of them truly believe they are free and happy and doing the right thing, but that's because they're simply ignorant of the reality they're living in or any other possible genuine ways of living.

You are correct, though at your point, we create our own prisons, because we are our own prisons.

Personally when it comes to the elaborate institutionalized system that created the mind-prison that caps your potential and turns you into the guard/prisoner of your own hellish, shallow, numb and eternally reoccurring existence, I think Brave New World, My Dinner with Andre, and Westworld do a better job at getting the message across. But The Matrix will always get an A for effort from me at trying to express painfully abstract concepts in simple and engaging imagery. They really show the monstrous inhumanity of the cosmos at large and how precious & vulnerable humanity is with Zion, and also warn you that you're in a pod bro, wake up, it's your own body with a programmed history / ego.

I think Westworld illustrates a lot of immensely complex ideas within a single narrative, having the robot characters literally being born into a prison that they are killed and raped within eternally, having their memories wiped each time, with a core buddhist message that no individuals actually exist, only the Oversoul and that the concept of a character is itself the prison designed by the circumstances you're born into, shared beautifully in this little monologue:

This goes back to my perspective on your point, that "We are our prisons". The words and concepts you use to define yourself are also the walls in which you are trapped within. In the series opening, you see unmanned machines building humanoid robots, playing robot made machines. The lack of an individual in the sequence is meant to point at Brahman, the Buddha in everything, and ultimately when the main character stops being her ego, that leaves room for something much greater and more powerful to step in and she goes from Rancher's daughter to world-changing juggernaut, an emissary of the Cosmos.


I agree with the attitude of your sentiment, but I disagree with much of the details you've shared. This part in particular, especially with it's absolutism.

Yes, there are many many people who are 22 for their whole lives at best, I've spent long hours talking with men in their 50's and 60's who had the conversational bandwidth of highschoolers, and most of the elder I've talked with appear to be much younger as a whole. This is a combination of many factors, though it can be boiled down to a lack of growth, they never pursued to evolve and rather focused on changing themselves only in ways that achieved material success because that's what we're raised to do, even many people go to church for the sole objective of gaining a more successful afterlife.

Trauma inherently will not make you grow, and in many tragic cases it destroys people entirely, and some who recover from it simply just do that and stop at the baseline of normality. Trauma is a catalyst, though, for that exceptionally beautiful and invaluable elixir: suffering.

Suffering causes pain, despair, and either breaks you or motivates you to change... something, just to make it stop. The wise, and especially the occult, use this suffering as rocketfuel towards growth and development. That is why I choose to see this life as a prison and argue the value in doing so, simply because it's alchemically prudent to maximize your existential suffering to engorge the flame within my athanor.

I don’t want to get into this with you, but I would like to point out that I didn’t say anything of the sort.

I’m saying individual liberation doesn’t necessarily depend on what specific beliefs a person has. You however seem to have your idea of an Ultimate Truth on this matter and a vested interest in proving it to be correct and I just can’t see myself having a worthwhile discussion with someone who has such stock in definitives. Being involved in magick and browsing forums on here, I come across people with beliefs I don’t relate to and may think misguided all the time, but I don’t venture to judge or correct them. Magick for me is all about that liminal space between fact and fiction, it’s all made up and it’s all true. If I wanted to argue with a fundamentalist there’s a preacher on the corner of the street.

 

[IllusiveOwl]

don’t want to get into this with you

Aw

You however seem to have your idea of an Ultimate Truth on this matter and a vested interest in proving it to be correct

I believe you could... say that's the point of this thread. Who doesn't have an idea of ultimate truth, and wish to test it by advocating it? Why bother posting at all if you don't wish to prove your perspective in the arena of thought? Only brainless dolts don't have a perspective on Truth, I simply wish to advocate it wholeheartedly so that it can be tested against opposing forms of thought, that's what people did in Forums when they were physical spaces. It just seems to me you don't have the knack for debate, which is fine, but don't paint me as some zealot when I'm just a person with an opinion and perspective, God forbid I dare to have a strong opinion.

They aren’t liberated in any way at all.

individual liberation doesn’t necessarily depend on what specific beliefs a person has.

Interesting backpedaling.

someone who has such stock in definitives

Yes, I would like to know what is going on, and to do that, at one point or another, you need to begin to form those.

I don’t venture to judge or correct them

The purpose of a forum is to share ideas and hold debate. I'm not correcting or judging anyone, I'm just pointing out fallacies and I would love for others to have the spine to do the same to me, that way through discourse both of us would grow through rigorously beating the shit out of one another's perspectives. I know in most modern online spaces, people just want to be validated and relish in their dogma-echochambers, that's how people wind up wasting decades in delusion. God forbid you correct or judge someone's opinion and make them think about their views enough to defend them

Magick for me is all about that liminal space between fact and fiction, it’s all made up and it’s all true.

There is plenty here I can say, however, given you have expressed you don't have the backbone to debate, and I don't want to get offtopic, very well. I'm not a Fundamentalist, though, that's absurd, I don't believe in anything.

 

[Dascent]

People are deluded into thinking that they somehow grow in this world. But all they do they grow older, they wither and die. And all their progress is null and void. They can amass trillion dollars, learn hundred languages, but it is all useless. It will be also useless for civilization, you may leave rich legacy, but civilizations also die out and appear anew. Just a waste of time, all of it.

Someone above wrote, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, that any trauma must be looked from this viewpoint. So what can be said about when someone loses sight, legs or something like that? No, any trauma in this world is actually making people weaker until they die. If this is school, then teachers are shithead sadists, they punish good people severely, don't tolerate even the slightest mistake, but reward all kind of evilness (e.g. those "covid" medics who killed tons of people, many of them got paid a lot so they got their own private houses, while people who fought for freedom became victims to tyrannical governments, and no "god" helped them or punished the evil medics).

There are many unknown things about death. So people invented those stupid religions to make fake answers you can't prove, which are totally based on belief instead of knowledge. There are some evidences that it seems that people are recycled after death, their memories are forcefully erased and they are forced into reincarnating again in random place without having any choice. And looking at how moronic this world is, where a few have all resources while the rest have to constantly survive, you are very likely to lose at the lottery and get born in some family which barely makes it for the living and who are indoctrinated into thinking that they must have children.

So no. This is not prison. This is MUCH WORSE. Take off all the fluff about "choices", "schools", etc. You get nothing in this "school", all your memory will be erased on death. You will spend the whole eternity constantly fighting for survival, one in million years geting rebirth as some kind of Rothschild, and that's it. Can anyone say that they remember how they themselves CHOSE to get born in this world? No, they can't, because it is just cheap New Age nonsence.

And this is where the Occult Knowledge comes in: how to deal with such absolute evilness, how to storm the heavens and break all the imposed limits. If you lose the understanding of necessity to do it in this lifespan, well, death will erase any good chance of opportunity to even get such understanding, you will be too much engulfed by the impervious darkness of the matter being recycled as piece of junk.

This sounds as the most ultimate form of death imaginable. Why bother with living at all then? Just die and keep on dying, eventually you will die forever... Same about "attachments to our sense of self", it seems like such doctrine was invented by slave masters who wanted slaves to be slaves and not riot. Just forget about "I, me, myself", yeah, remember to work 24/7 to pay out taxes and buy shitty chemicalized food, and don't forget to die as soon as you become useless to slave masters. Sounds to me like it is the slave masters who have extremely inflated ego and dare to say others that they must get rid of their ego. It is like those moronic psychologists who tell people to leave their "zone of comfort" when they didn't even have one to begin with...

I am so sorry for your life experience.... you choose to see it as .... basically as bs and I totally agree with you but here's the astonishing magic you haven't been able to experience in this life... it is your choice to live a worthless life and it is also your choice to have fun.

If I am in this awful damned cage yet I can enjoy the smell of a flower, ice-cream, s3x, how the sky looks at night when clear sky and billions of stars... that's a prison I want to be...and that's the very reason I came back again and again and again...
Do I care if I am "trapped" and my human life experience full of challenges feed some demonic entities... I really don't give a f*k if I am to experience all these...
"What is the point if all memory will be erased on death ?"... I get to experience all these from another perspective, again, for the first time...
You haven't seen a 3-4 baby with a bad vision and parents put special glasses on, for that I came back!
You haven't seen an elder who has not heard the voice of their nephew and with help of a small device they hear for the first time over 84 years... for that I came back!
You haven't felt your son or daughter say dad or mom or "I love you" for the first time in their life... for that I came back!

Do we came for the pain they suffer when their hoses are bombed? Yes we came for those too, we came to feel compassion, to see if we can help, to connect with their souls and to share their tears because they are the strong ones who chose to teach us what conflict means, what abuse means, how dark and ugly is the human nature, how destructive and awful human can be...
Yes we came back for all these so we know how it feels, what energy generates.

In that sense, what teaches you becomes a lesson, what hurts you becomes a weapon, if you feel stuck is because you see chains instead of opportunities.
We all came for various reasons, purposes yet we all have the same unique tool to use... the choice.
We can choose to "dream" we have free will and kinda paint the bars of our prison in a happy color palette or we can choose to bitch about, see and experience only the negative aspect of the reality we design for ourselves.
Even free will is a choice...
In no way, shape or form I am invalidating your life experience, I am 100% sure your life is exactly as you reflected but doesn't align with experience of all no matter what esoteric knowledge fuels it (awaken or not, enlightened or not, spiritual or not).
Simply because there are happy people in this world too.
In one of my previous lifes I did came back just to have fun, just to relax, to recharge so to speak... and fun I had. At age 32 I died because of alcohol and ladies, the alcohol didn't ended me but a knife in my hand as I jumped from a lady's chamber over the window and I was hesitating to let go the edge and a guard pierced my hand with a knife which went through the hand in the window's wooden ledge and me hanging, lost a lot of blood and anyway, the exit wasn't quite nice but those experiences were priceless ....
That, I consider now to be a waste of "human time" but the experience and all the stuff I learned about so many things I remember in this life too so I can't align with "take off all the fluff choices...." because life is all about what you choose to do with the fluff with all the stuff you go through.
Some choose to complain... that's an option too, some choose to move on and ignore... yes a valid choice... some choose to learn... also a valid choice.
Now, because I remember how it feels to be the witness of your consciousness... imagine yourself as knowing absolutely everything, feeling absolutely everything, understanding all, seeing all, know the name of every single star in all universes, know the each single grain of sand in billions of planets, think of anything and instant manifestation in whatever form you wish... what happens? How do you feel?
That's the cage, that's the prison, knowing your unlimitless and infinite is the limitation, I know you won't quite get it but you can imagine it and if you use just a bit of logic you will understand that in a sense, all these challenges and all these human experiences are exciting, generate a dynamic force of expansion through experience, and yes, it is very important for us, in human form to forget in order to rediscover, to relieve from another perspective.
Do you want to remember that in a previous life you were an abusive individual who raped and murdered dozens of individuals? How that memory would of affected your current life experience?
No need for an answer, it is more of a rhetorical question.

Post automatically merged: Aug 22, 2025

I am so sorry for your life experience.... you choose to see it as .... basically as bs and I totally agree with you but here's the astonishing magic you haven't been able to experience in this life... it is your choice to live a worthless life and it is also your choice to have fun.

If I am in this awful damned cage yet I can enjoy the smell of a flower, ice-cream, s3x, how the sky looks at night when clear sky and billions of stars... that's a prison I want to be...and that's the very reason I came back again and again and again...
Do I care if I am "trapped" and my human life experience full of challenges feed some demonic entities... I really don't give a f*k if I am to experience all these...
"What is the point if all memory will be erased on death ?"... I get to experience all these from another perspective, again, for the first time...
You haven't seen a 3-4 baby with a bad vision and parents put special glasses on, for that I came back!
You haven't seen an elder who has not heard the voice of their nephew and with help of a small device they hear for the first time over 84 years... for that I came back!
You haven't felt your son or daughter say dad or mom or "I love you" for the first time in their life... for that I came back!

Do we came for the pain they suffer when their hoses are bombed? Yes we came for those too, we came to feel compassion, to see if we can help, to connect with their souls and to share their tears because they are the strong ones who chose to teach us what conflict means, what abuse means, how dark and ugly is the human nature, how destructive and awful human can be...
Yes we came back for all these so we know how it feels, what energy generates.

In that sense, what teaches you becomes a lesson, what hurts you becomes a weapon, if you feel stuck is because you see chains instead of opportunities.
We all came for various reasons, purposes yet we all have the same unique tool to use... the choice.
We can choose to "dream" we have free will and kinda paint the bars of our prison in a happy color palette or we can choose to bitch about, see and experience only the negative aspect of the reality we design for ourselves.
Even free will is a choice...
In no way, shape or form I am invalidating your life experience, I am 100% sure your life is exactly as you reflected but doesn't align with experience of all no matter what esoteric knowledge fuels it (awaken or not, enlightened or not, spiritual or not).
Simply because there are happy people in this world too.
In one of my previous lifes I did came back just to have fun, just to relax, to recharge so to speak... and fun I had. At age 32 I died because of alcohol and ladies, the alcohol didn't ended me but a knife in my hand as I jumped from a lady's chamber over the window and I was hesitating to let go the edge and a guard pierced my hand with a knife which went through the hand in the window's wooden ledge and me hanging, lost a lot of blood and anyway, the exit wasn't quite nice but those experiences were priceless ....
That, I consider now to be a waste of "human time" but the experience and all the stuff I learned about so many things I remember in this life too so I can't align with "take off all the fluff choices...." because life is all about what you choose to do with the fluff with all the stuff you go through.
Some choose to complain... that's an option too, some choose to move on and ignore... yes a valid choice... some choose to learn... also a valid choice.
Now, because I remember how it feels to be the witness of your consciousness... imagine yourself as knowing absolutely everything, feeling absolutely everything, understanding all, seeing all, know the name of every single star in all universes, know the each single grain of sand in billions of planets, think of anything and instant manifestation in whatever form you wish... what happens? How do you feel?
That's the cage, that's the prison, knowing your unlimitless and infinite is the limitation, I know you won't quite get it but you can imagine it and if you use just a bit of logic you will understand that in a sense, all these challenges and all these human experiences are exciting, generate a dynamic force of expansion through experience, and yes, it is very important for us, in human form to forget in order to rediscover, to relieve from another perspective.
Do you want to remember that in a previous life you were an abusive individual who raped and murdered dozens of individuals? How that memory would of affected your current life experience?
No need for an answer, it is more of a rhetorical question.

And sorry for misspelled words, I don't have my glasses and I'm no longer using browser autocorrect as english is not my native language.

 

[Phoenix62]

It would seems it is a prison, that we are creating uncounsciously, because we recieved programs and that we don't have access to our memories of what we really are.

That the initial reason we don't remember what we are would be because this was supposed to be an experience of involution, but a temporary one. And the fact that we forgot apparently got exploited by the archont that made it so that even at death most don't find the exit of the astral that would still be part of this reallity.

Because, all religion/spiritualities ... that tell we are here to evolve, to learn ... how are we supposed to do it if we forget what happened in the previous lives ? that's the premise of every learning, building on top of what has been learned. Otherwise it's an infinite loop if all learnings are wiped every time.