Lilith is a modern invention

[StarOfSitra]

In the Sumerian, Akkadian, and Babylonian texts (around 4,000 years ago), we find references to female air spirits (lilu or lilītu) and male ones (ardat-lilî). These words derive from the term lil (“air”), as in Enlil, the lord of the air. They were not unique characters but rather a type of entity.

It is in the 10th century, in a Hebrew satirical text called The Alphabet of Ben Sira, that the myth of Lilith appears as Adam’s rebellious wife (let us remember the context that it was a satire). It is here that the figure of Lilith as we know her today first arises.

It is only by the end of the 19th and 20th centuries that Lilith becomes a rebellious symbol of feminine power and an archetypal deity.

Up to this point, that is the chronology of the facts. Now then, I would like to leave a small question open for debate:

Given that humanity already has such a rich pantheon of both female and male deities throughout the world, is it really necessary to artificially create new deities within the Jewish framework?

Opinion: It seems that some people are aroused or fascinated by the Hebrew tradition — with all its Kabbalah and Jewish symbolism — and everything must somehow revolve around it.

 

[Morell]

New age, new definitions of the old... and new myths. Every age creates its own spirituality. Took me time but I decided to honor current age and rather develop and live today spirituality than looking back and idealizing the old, both spirituality and lifestyle. Which made me embrace completely rebellious way of using pop culture, but is that really new thing to use what is in fashion?

Anyway, looking at the net I would think that it really is so, that people are obsessed with the Bible and all around it, especially on YT, but there is a catch. Fair Use law that causes the American reaction culture to flourish on YT exist only in USA. We in EU have to make our own content or have approval of the author of what we want to use. So I assume that this fascination is only certain group of people that happens to be quite vocal, but there it ends.

Also I have no problem with this fascination despite having no love for Abrahamic religions myself, who am I to say that others should not enjoy it? In this case I say live and let live. In fact I turned to like how some parts of their legendarium took life of it's own independent on it like the angels and demons.

 

[StarOfSitra]

Personally, I like the ancient over the modern; the modern is built upon the ancient, and as often happens—like in the game of telephone—along the way everything gets distorted, creating something different and oftentimes meaningless.

That is why, in biblical matters, I don’t stay there either (I also put it in the bag of modernity). Rather, I like to know the origins. For example, the core myths of the Bible, such as the Garden of Eden, the Great Flood, etc., have their origin in Sumer.

We could say that for me the Bible is a compendium of ancient myths mixed with the chronicles of the birth of the people of Israel, as well as their cultural and identity defense. But nothing more important than that; likewise, we see that, as I have said in several posts, Yahweh was a god belonging to a Canaanite pantheon.

The myths and gods of antiquity have their origin in realities, not fantasies—they existed, exist, and will exist, because they represent the primordial energies of the cosmos, of nature, of human aspects, etc.—all of them together represent the whole.

By understanding the origins, you understand the results. Knowing the tree, you will know what fruits it bears and why (the reverse of how it is written). Knowing the origins of Judaism, then, you understand monotheism—the monotheism that has led to atheism (which, before this monotheism, did not exist).

For me, the origin is what explains everything. That is illumination: recognizing the divine origin of the true inner being.

 

[Morell]

Personally, I like the ancient over the modern; the modern is built upon the ancient, and as often happens—like in the game of telephone—along the way everything gets distorted, creating something different and oftentimes meaningless.

That is why, in biblical matters, I don’t stay there either (I also put it in the bag of modernity). Rather, I like to know the origins. For example, the core myths of the Bible, such as the Garden of Eden, the Great Flood, etc., have their origin in Sumer.

We could say that for me the Bible is a compendium of ancient myths mixed with the chronicles of the birth of the people of Israel, as well as their cultural and identity defense. But nothing more important than that; likewise, we see that, as I have said in several posts, Yahweh was a god belonging to a Canaanite pantheon.

The myths and gods of antiquity have their origin in realities, not fantasies—they existed, exist, and will exist, because they represent the primordial energies of the cosmos, of nature, of human aspects, etc.—all of them together represent the whole.

By understanding the origins, you understand the results. Knowing the tree, you will know what fruits it bears and why (the reverse of how it is written). Knowing the origins of Judaism, then, you understand monotheism—the monotheism that has led to atheism (which, before this monotheism, did not exist).

For me, the origin is what explains everything. That is illumination: recognizing the divine origin of the true inner being.

Yes and no.

You are right that understanding origins and history of any deity or spirit is rewarding. Well, I say rewarding, though in my opinion for a lot of people such research usually bring disillusion first, and the value later. And it transforms them, often causing them to stop value the being they researched. Well, reality can be hard. But the way we face it speaks things about us.

I must disagree with atheism being born from Monotheism. It is usually born from disillusion with practice. It doesn't work and the person then looses trust and faith. I believe that there were way more people who didn't really believe in supernatural during history than is written. Partly because it was religious temples that were places of knowledge that were writing history down. Saxo Grammaticus in Gesta Dannorum mentions a man who was fighting alongside pagans, yet he claimed that he "never sacrificed to the gods, nor prayed, yet he never lost a battle. He didn't need to appease the gods." Judge for yourself, how much atheistic that is, I wouldn't be surprised if it were based on truth.

I cannot find it right now, but I saw and heard that faith of people in spiritual phenomena is stable through the society. Meaning that there is always sure percentage of people who do not believe in supernatural. Though it doesn't mean that they do not do what is custom of their people. Culture is culture and it shapes how we behave. You need to fit in somehow.

 

[AbammonTheGreat]

New age, new definitions of the old... and new myths. Every age creates its own spirituality. Took me time but I decided to honor current age and rather develop and live today spirituality than looking back and idealizing the old, both spirituality and lifestyle. Which made me embrace completely rebellious way of using pop culture, but is that really new thing to use what is in fashion?

Anyway, looking at the net I would think that it really is so, that people are obsessed with the Bible and all around it, especially on YT, but there is a catch. Fair Use law that causes the American reaction culture to flourish on YT exist only in USA. We in EU have to make our own content or have approval of the author of what we want to use. So I assume that this fascination is only certain group of people that happens to be quite vocal, but there it ends.

Also I have no problem with this fascination despite having no love for Abrahamic religions myself, who am I to say that others should not enjoy it? In this case I say live and let live. In fact I turned to like how some parts of their legendarium took life of it's own independent on it like the angels and demons.

I tend to agree with the sentiment. Astrological magicians are playing with space-time essentially and so I always have to check myself about where my magic, corporeality, and outcomes are located in the "hypercube". I'm reminded that I may be conjuring a spirit from a grimoire based out of 11th century Iraq but i'm pulling that spirit into my current location in spacetime and so I have to stop thinking about things being more ancient or historically accurate or refusing to utilize the magic of the old in modern ways, as that is bad form when probing the limits of time.

There is also the extremely popular fallacy that "older = better" which is something our tradition has always fell victim too. I have to think to myself; if John Dee had an EEG would he be slapping it on Edward Kelly's head and recording his brainwaves during a scrying session? If Levi had ChatGPT would he be uploading a mega folder of pdf grimoires and asking it to give him a spark notes summary of the common symbols? If Abu Mashar had Astro-Dienst would he be organizing all his elections on it? Do you think Porphyry would sign up to debate Jay Dyer on youtube over Christian Theology?

I personally think all these men would 100% be using the tools and systems of modernity to further their esoteric and magical craft.

 

[Morell]

There is also the extremely popular fallacy that "older = better" which is something our tradition has always fell victim too.

I can't agree more.

Older is worth exploring, but new is consequence of the old, it's next stage in everchanging world. New is old that came to our time and adapted or adapts to it.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Atheists existed centuries before the old testament was written (greek philosophy).

People don't want to think their favorite deities could be egregores. As I've stated elsewhere, mankind has been around a lot longer than written records, they've had plenty of time to develop, and will appear under different names and with different guises.

 

[StarOfSitra]

Atheism does not arise from believing or not believing; it does not arise because a ritual doesn’t work. Atheism arises because monotheism is restrictive, and God, the supreme judge and executor, forbids, commands, and condemns those who do not obey. And as if that were not enough, rabbis, synagogues, priests, and the church add more fuel to the fire with their doctrine. The Talmud takes up as many or more volumes than a private library, all written about rabbis forbidding and commanding.

Atheism is society’s rebellious response to imposition. The atheist, normally, is hostile toward religion and the church (as happens with anarchist and revolutionary movements). Atheism in the West is the representation of the most primordial satanism—the opposition to “God” and His command.

This opposition is easier to bear if, instead of believing that you are facing the Supreme God, you simply believe that He does not exist. Then there will be no punishment, nor life after death—nothing.

To all this, moreover, we live in an era where people demand freedom—of gender recognition, racial equality, sexual freedom… And all this freedom is condemned. Therefore, that Supreme God must be brought down from the throne of tyranny.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 5:34 PM

Atheists existed centuries before the old testament was written (greek philosophy).

People don't want to think their favorite deities could be egregores. As I've stated elsewhere, mankind has been around a lot longer than written records, they've had plenty of time to develop, and will appear under different names and with different guises.

The oldest texts of the Tanakh (part of the Old Testament) date back to the 10th–9th centuries B.C. The Torah is from the 8th century B.C., and the earliest Greek philosophers appear in the 6th century B.C. (the classical ones like Plato, Socrates, etc., are from the 5th and 4th centuries B.C.). No atheist appeared until the atomist school (5th century B.C.) or with Epicurus (4th century B.C.). Therefore, the Old Testament is older—I mention this because of the idea that Greek philosophy came centuries before the Old Testament. That’s why it’s important to know antiquity.

 

[Beyond Everything]

Obviously I mispoke. What I meant is Atheist philosophers existed centuries before EXPOSURE to the old testament.

 

[Faria]

Given that humanity already has such a rich pantheon of both female and male deities throughout the world, is it really necessary to artificially create new deities within the Jewish framework?

The same situation exists for Satanism. You've got 3500+ years of mythology, with deities representing every facet of human philosophy, but people want to escape Christianity by embracing a major Bible character?

Almost all of it, the Satanism and the Lilith thing, is just a fancy way of saying, "I refuse do do what you want me to do." And it's never just beliefs. There's a fashion aesthetic, a lifestyle, a whole selection of tastes and attitudes that goes along with it, and the single defining character of those is rejection of the majority norms.

It's not enough to reject what you don't like and embrace something better. The people who you are rejecting have to know you're doing it, and not like it, or the rebellion doesn't count.

 

[Beyond Everything]

It's not enough to reject what you don't like and embrace something better. The people who you are rejecting have to know you're doing it, and not like it, or the rebellion doesn't count.

It's a good thing christians don't do public professions of faith, and attempted conversions.

 

[MorganBlack]

Yeah, Lilith, as she's commonly represented, is a relatively modern invention. But so what? Not one of my spirit court, but plenty of modern magicians call "her" and report in with good results (in my book) whatever "she" is.

The grimoires do magicians a disservice by presenting the daimons as D&D Monster Manual entries, as whole, distinct, and separate persons. The grims weave together four mythic threads and root cultures: the Jewish (with Babylonian in the background), Christian, Arabic, and "pagan" Greek.

What other stories do you prefer?

Usually, people railing against "the Jewish influence" in magic are a bunch of dumbfuck Odinists who try to shoehorn in some of the 20th-century Theosophical Neopagan horseshit masquerading as "Ye Ancient Northern Magic" - from the wise, sagely and mostly hallucinated "Ancient Frozen Paganistan" peoples, we have to presume.

 

[AbammonTheGreat]

Yeah, Lilith, as she's commonly represented, is a relatively modern invention. But so what? Not one of my spirit court, but plenty of modern magicians call "her" and report in with good results (in my book) whatever "she" is.

The grimoires do magicians a disservice by presenting the daimons as D&D Monster Manual entries, as whole, distinct, and separate persons. The grims weave together four mythic threads and root cultures: the Jewish (with Babylonian in the background), Christian, Arabic, and "pagan" Greek.

What other stories do you prefer?

Usually, people railing against "the Jewish influence" in magic are a bunch of dumbfuck Odinists who try to shoehorn in some of the 20th-century Theosophical Neopagan horseshit masquerading as "Ye Ancient Northern Magic" - from the wise, sagely and mostly hallucinated "Ancient Frozen Paganistan" peoples, we have to presume.

I'd make the argument that ive never met a lilithaboo that wasnt an absolute neurotic mess of a person. Magic working/"good results" is not just that the entity responds but that it doesnt absolutely destroy you in the process.

 

[MorganBlack]

Interesting. "She" is just not in my personal sub-universe, so no opinion.

Did the neuroticism happen before or after calling her?

That said, when I look at the untreated mental illness, wish fulfillment, and rampant shadow projection (The Joos!! The Catholics!!! Burning Times! Be afraid!! ) in post 1899 occulture I'd say it does not take Lillith for that hot mess to come true.

 

[Evara]

Given that humanity already has such a rich pantheon of both female and male deities throughout the world, is it really necessary to artificially create new deities within the Jewish framework?

My question is... how much of it is buried fragments resurfacing that were warped and twisted and how much of it is an "artificial creation"?

Some things were erased and don't like to stay dead. Some things aren't allowed to...

 

[Faria]

My question is... how much of it is buried fragments resurfacing that were warped and twisted and how much of it is an "artificial creation"?

The artificial creation is turning some random air spirits and a poem about owls into the matriarch of the occult feminist movement. Virtually everything the Lilith crowd mistakenly adores about Lilith can be said about Ishtar with no mistake. The difference is that Lilith is sourced from within the Judeo-Christian canon and represents a rejection of the same.

 

[Evara]

The artificial creation is turning some random air spirits and a poem about owls into the matriarch of the occult feminist movement. Virtually everything the Lilith crowd mistakenly adores about Lilith can be said about Ishtar with no mistake. The difference is that Lilith is sourced from within the Judeo-Christian canon and represents a rejection of the same.

Yeah, the Ishtar link is real.

But, I also know that there were many efforts to distort, overwrite and stack god forms in order to erase or subdue their archetypal currents.
So there very well could have been a Lilith that just got blended, chopped up and stacked with Ishtar and Inanna.
I don't trust the fragments that we have as, "this is what was and still is".
Those are just the bits and pieces that survived and there's a good chance that they're just curses and lies.

 

[MorganBlack]

Faria, totally agreed about the narrative being a late-stage bolt-on.

To soften it just a little, I also think much of the evocation rituals are mostly for the magician.

Not to get too Lovecraftian, but in my view , first "something forms" - the "astral matrix" (ugh, nomenclature!) we create in ritual works as as a sort of UI/UX - and then "something comes" (The Gregori. The Watchers, the daimons, the thought-beings. Fill in your fave name.) in response to us yelling and waving sticks in the air, and inhabits it.

As long as they agree to take on the role and Office and use those names, and give us what we want, then all good.

IMHO, it's all a Mystery Play with the us and the daimons. And even the attack-and-defense back and forth of more spirit-hostile 'Solomonic' side of magic is also a game we are playing together.

This is not to say the names used in magic are 100% arbitrary, and you can just unthinkingly scribble in whatever floats your more religious-minded boat.

You can try to summon them in the "Power of Pikachu", or "The Morrigan" or "Odin" or whatever names you decide you prefer. Well you can, sort of, but you're just making it harder for yourself. These are not names that mean anything to them. Like, why these stupid monkeys changing the script?

One day!
By the Power of Dr. Peter Venkman! The the intelligence of Dr. Egon Spengler! By the strength of Dr. Winston!

 

[Faria]

Those are just the bits and pieces that survived and there's a good chance that they're just curses and lies.

About a thousand years ago, Europeans were completely unhinged about sex. Centuries of female oppression followed the male-dominated militarization of every civilized land from Toulouse to Tehran. The "curses and lies" you reference are the elements of the Lilith story, put together by those same people Lilith-fans are trying to subvert.

The rationale: Genesis says God made "them Male and Female" and then the very next chapter Adam is alone in the garden. So how'd that happen? Rabbis figured that there must have been some other woman (Lilith) who was equivalent to Adam, rather than Eve who was made as a part of Adam and to be his helper. Lilith, then, was her own female version of Adam and not a subservient creature. Adam was spending his time with the animals, and Lilith was seduced by the serpent. After the Fall, Lilith married Cain and went eastward to found their dynasty, later destroyed in the Flood. These are not ancient traditions, it's fan fiction cooked up by medieval rabbis.

Relatively recently, someone got the idea that a word in Babylonian language has a similar syllable, and of course you've seen the relief carvings. That's about the extent of the "bits and pieces" you reference.

I mean sure do what you want, but to me it looks like there are plenty of actual feminist deities who represent a variety of strong female archetypes. And the Lilith thing is really shaky ground since most of the observable facts lean toward it being a big mistake built on bad archaeology and Bible commentary.

 

[Evara]

About a thousand years ago, Europeans were completely unhinged about sex. Centuries of female oppression followed the male-dominated militarization of every civilized land from Toulouse to Tehran. The "curses and lies" you reference are the elements of the Lilith story, put together by those same people Lilith-fans are trying to subvert.

The rationale: Genesis says God made "them Male and Female" and then the very next chapter Adam is alone in the garden. So how'd that happen? Rabbis figured that there must have been some other woman (Lilith) who was equivalent to Adam, rather than Eve who was made as a part of Adam and to be his helper. Lilith, then, was her own female version of Adam and not a subservient creature. Adam was spending his time with the animals, and Lilith was seduced by the serpent. After the Fall, Lilith married Cain and went eastward to found their dynasty, later destroyed in the Flood. These are not ancient traditions, it's fan fiction cooked up by medieval rabbis.

Relatively recently, someone got the idea that a word in Babylonian language has a similar syllable, and of course you've seen the relief carvings. That's about the extent of the "bits and pieces" you reference.

I mean sure do what you want, but to me it looks like there are plenty of actual feminist deities who represent a variety of strong female archetypes. And the Lilith thing is really shaky ground since most of the observable facts lean toward it being a big mistake built on bad archaeology and Bible commentary.

Grrrrr... I despise the Genesis origin curse. I hate it I hate it I hate it I hate it.
They twisted everything and made an abomination out of the divine. It's a curse placed on mankind by bitter desert warlocks.
And that is not the real Eve. She too got devoured and rewrote.

The "curses and lies" you reference are the elements of the Lilith story, put together by those same people Lilith-fans are trying to subvert.

Exactly, we agree.

These are not ancient traditions, it's fan fiction cooked up by medieval rabbis.

That what their entire tradition is. It's black magic, soul enslavement and mythic curses engineered to distort and program others into subservience.