Lilith is a modern invention

[Lurker]

"The Huluppa Tree" dates to about 2000 b.c., so it's a reasonable conjecture that its idea of a lawless, wild Lilith was transmitted to Judaism later during the Babylonian captivity.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 10:03 PM

Do the scholars still agree that "dark maid Lilith" belongs in that verse?

You tell me. If not, what does? The mid-20th Century term "vampire"? There is nothing in the myth that supports vampirism.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 10:05 PM

Kramer and Wokstein (were both Jewish?) want you to see this Jewish figure inserted into Gilgamesh.

So, you're claiming that they rewrote the myth?

 

[MorganBlack]

75% of Western Magic is "Abrahamic " in mythic structure - with the other 25% Greco-Egyptian through Roman Hellenic syncratism. It was what was just going on in the Mediterranean area, North Africa, Syria, and the Near Middle East at the time.

You can try to get past it, and roll your own. Good luck, kids, Chaos magic and 'Luciferianism' both work great with the Infernal Hierarchy, but often not why people think they do.

But usually what most people want to add into the mix is neo-Wiccan or Norse baby pablum. You know, the stupid shit.

 

[Faria]

So, you're claiming that they rewrote the myth?

About 90% of what I've heard about Lilith comes from collected superstitions of otherwise stable conservative and orthodox Jews. Almost all of it, to me, smacks of sexual paranoia that developed as a side effect of their understanding Jewish law and custom.

I am suggesting that the original source from 1873 might have used Lilith because Lilith was a figure in Bible lore at that time when women's roles were being re-examined. Then later on in the 1980s Wokstein and Kramer use that source, which validates a thousand years of Jewish superstition regarding Lilith. This one word in Gilgamesh gives a pedigree to what would otherwise be medieval Bible fanfiction.

So my question is... do the actual Akkadian-Sumerian language scholars endorse this translation, as "dark maid Lilith," or is it just a large number of people parroting this 1873 book using that word? Where does the linguistic archaeology rest today on this verse in Gilgamesh?

This is also one of those cases where ChatGPT is going to give you crap data because it has been crap data for a long time in a lot of places.

 

[Romolo]

To the monotheistic sky-god religions, a woman who lives her sex life freely, outside of the towns and cities (desert folks, nomads, bedouins...) must have been an intimidating threat. Maybe that was reason enough for a caricature/parody in the shape of ”wild” Lilith? From Peter Grey’s “Red Goddess”: “All of the names related to Lilith have a trill fluttering sound like the call of an owl. This is the sound of the bird-like calls of the women you can still hear in lonely Moroccan villages. The easiest way to get in touch with this Goddess is by using her name as a mantra and let it echo out across the landscape lililiililiilililiilililiili….” (Peter Grey, “The Red Goddess”, page 55)

I do believe it is possible to connect with the original/archetypical Lillith, beyond the “parody“ (or simulacrum) that she has become throughout the ages. But the same can be said about Babalon/Ishtar, and even of noble Hecate. Deities seem to appear on a sliding scale from abstract/elemental to anthropomorphic.

 

[Lurker]

The only other book I have with this particular myth is The Sumerians by Samuel Noah Kramer, which was published in 1963. He uses the term "vampire". Why does it matter?

You can take a look at his credentials

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Yes, he was Jewish too.

I'm not using ChatGPT, I'm using my own resources. I own both of the books I've mentioned. Thirty years ago I had a bit of a fetish for Sumerian history and myths. Those are the only two I can find that discuss this particular myth.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 10:44 PM

About 90% of what I've heard about Lilith comes from collected superstitions of otherwise stable conservative and orthodox Jews. Almost all of it, to me, smacks of sexual paranoia that developed as a side effect of their understanding Jewish law and custom.

I am suggesting that the original source from 1873 might have used Lilith because Lilith was a figure in Bible lore at that time when women's roles were being re-examined. Then later on in the 1980s Wokstein and Kramer use that source, which validates a thousand years of Jewish superstition regarding Lilith. This one word in Gilgamesh gives a pedigree to what would otherwise be medieval Bible fanfiction.

So my question is... do the actual Akkadian-Sumerian language scholars endorse this translation, as "dark maid Lilith," or is it just a large number of people parroting this 1873 book using that word? Where does the linguistic archaeology rest today on this verse in Gilgamesh?

This is also one of those cases where ChatGPT is going to give you crap data because it has been crap data for a long time in a lot of places.

 

[Faria]

The only other book I have with this particular myth is The Sumerians by Samuel Noah Kramer, which was published in 1963. He uses the term "vampire". Why does it matter?

You can take a look at his credentials

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Yes, he was Jewish too.

I'm not using ChatGPT, I'm using my own resources. I own both of the books I've mentioned. Thirty years ago I had a bit of a fetish for Sumerian history and myths. Those are the only two I can find that discuss this

I cannot be more clear here, I think Kramer has a personal desire to validate a host of common superstitions within Judaism using Gilgamesh to prove that Judaism adopted the idea of Lilith from the Babylonians. Maybe? But the case for it is not solid. If we take Kramer or his source as face value it places Lilith as an individual in a pre-Bible source. That would give Lilith historical and cultural legitimacy outside of rabbinical lore.

But is that a valid rendering of the text? Maybe. But maybe not. The language experts (not me) have done an impressive job at translating early texts, and this would be a case where a clear rendering would have a large impact on the case for Lilith as pre-medieval lore.

 

[MorganBlack]

If you think Judaism hates women, you guys really need to get out more. I can tell you've never spent time around Jewish families.

With matrilineal descent Jewish identity passes through the mother. Women the literal gatekeepers of Jewish community. And Jewish women had property rights 2000 years ago

And jeez, ya'll really don't know how to read myth, do you? Do I even have to do this?

The whole rib story. Consider what the text actually says. When Adam first sees woman, he is not claiming ownership or authority. What he exclaims is recognition: "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh!" This is the language of reunion, love, connection. He's been naming animals, finding no partner among them, and suddenly encounters someone who is like him - his mirror, his completion. It's the first poetry in the Torah, suggesting this moment is about deep connection and wholeness.

Really. Not that hard. Stop listening to neo-Wiccan dumbfucks, and crack a book on occasion.

 

[Lurker]

I cannot be more clear here, I think Kramer has a personal desire to validate a host of common superstitions within Judaism using Gilgamesh to prove that Judaism adopted the idea of Lilith from the Babylonians. Maybe? But the case for it is not solid. If we take Kramer or his source as face value it places Lilith as an individual in a pre-Bible source. That would give Lilith historical and cultural legitimacy outside of rabbinical lore.

But is that a valid rendering of the text? Maybe. But maybe not. The language experts (not me) have done an impressive job at translating early texts, and this would be a case where a clear rendering would have a large impact on the case for Lilith as pre-medieval lore.

I do not believe that S.N. Kramer indulged in fraud for the sake of his religious bias. Other scholars would have called him out. His book that I cited is a scholarly work and was published by The University of Chicago Press.

 

[Romolo]

If you think Judaism hates women, you guys really need to get out more. I can tell you've never spent time around Jewish families.

With matrilineal descent Jewish identity passes through the mother. Women the literal gatekeepers of Jewish community. And Jewish women had property rights 2000 years ago

And jeez, ya'll really don't know how to read myth, do you? Do I even have to do this?

The whole rib story. Consider what the text actually says. When Adam first sees woman, he is not claiming ownership or authority. What he exclaims is recognition: "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh!" This is the language of reunion, love, connection. He's been naming animals, finding no partner among them, and suddenly encounters someone who is like him - his mirror, his completion. It's the first poetry in the Torah, suggesting this moment is about deep connection and wholeness.

Oh yes, Muslims, Christians and Jews certainly love their own women as long as they conform to the purity expectations (“bone of my bone”), but do they love the OTHER woman, the witch, the freak, the whore, the woman that bleeds, the woman that lives on her own outside of the community (according to her own rules), the woman that freed herself from the schemes of reproduction?

 

[Morell]

If you think Judaism hates women, you guys really need to get out more. I can tell you've never spent time around Jewish families.

Saying things nicely doesn't mean that the things are in fact that nice.

What you read in the books is theory and in matter of religions like this it is the ideal that hardly ever truly reflects objective reality. It is true that people in those religions might not notice that it could be better and accept what they see as normal. And if you think that there are no extremists Jews misusing women, think again.

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Now that you people mention Islam, same case. They will insist that women are equal to men, just few small restrictions. Like that she cannot go anywhere without male to be there with her. Just minor limitation to protect her, they say. But in truth, if all males are sick, she cannot go. If no male wants to go outside, she cannot go unless she is capable of changing their mind, but how long can they tolerate going outside whenever she needs or wants to? She is practically at mercy of men in the house. All it takes to see it is changing the angle of view.

With Judaism it is similar. What people say, write and what people do, is rarely exactly the same thing. Sometimes it even turns out very different. And I say that as a person who actually visited Israel. I've met various people there. Just like everywhere there are good people and there are bad people. Some do the best they can with their scripture, others misuse the parts that give them advantages...

 

[MorganBlack]

 

[BBBB]

What if Lilith is not an artificially created deity, but an integral part of humanity, which was repressed, so it became a shadow aspect?
If so, it will not simply "go away". It must be recognised properly for what it is.

 

[MorganBlack]

Hear me out:

LHP "Satanism is just mob trolling of actual Goetia.

Favor returned.

 

[Morell]

What if Lilith is not an artificially created deity, but an integral part of humanity, which was repressed, so it became a shadow aspect?
If so, it will not simply "go away". It must be recognised properly for what it is.

That's interesting theory. Worth considering.

 

[MorganBlack]

To take this out of making a simple point, into a more nuanced one:

To be fair, originally, we magicians originally trolled you.

Well, not you specifically, but your Left-Hand Path grandpappies.

This is not meant to be harsh, well not too much, but will sound harsh.

The Lurianic concept of "ascending the Inverse Tree of Life" is actually a continuation of Robert Anton Wilson's (RAW) Operation Mindfuck. If you were in the OTO, you'd know this history.

RAW used to sit on his couch with Lon Milo DuQuette, and between bong hits, they came up with the whole idea that ascending the Sephiroth of the Tree of Life was equivalent to reaching Buddhist Vijnana (Non-Perceptive Consciousness) states of consciousness. They are not the same thing. Seriously, anyone who practices both traditions knows this. Trying to claim it's all Left-Hand Path "shamanism" fixes nothing and demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of both systems.

To compound the error, in the late 1980's, non-native English speakers , like Swedish Left-Hand Path dweeb Thomas Karlsson read way too much Crowley (and simultaneously far too little) and they cherry-picked without understanding the broader context.

We know Karlsson loved that idiot Kenneth Grant, and and probably read books like Mishlen Linden, Typhonian Teratomas: The Shadows of the Abyss , probably while tripping balls. He was what? 19 at the time? That tracks. And hallucinated what amounts to a confused "LHP" syncretism masquerading as a legit historical tradition, and also "confusing the planes."

LHPers, the nasty, toxic, dark kind, all seem to get spawned in these in dank European necro-states. Now they retun home, jumping the Atlantic in digital backrooms, The mutant spawn of what started out as a joke.

Again, becasue they don't understand the source material, or even where it comes, too much lost much in translation. Now comibg back., these sad kids from a decaying EU, who know nothing, with their 5-minute old LHP "traditions" who can't tell postmodern occult satire and deliberate counter-cultural pranks for genuine esoteric lineage.

 

[Yazata]

The story that Lilith is an invention / myth because the oppressive Jews were afraid of female power is well known, but if it is a symbol that in some way empowers anyone, does it then really matter if a being was created by humans 300 years ago, or by God 5 million years ago, or by AI last week as long as you can achieve anything with it?
Let's all be adults and keep it on topic

 

[StarOfSitra]

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The story that Lilith is an invention / myth because the oppressive Jews were afraid of female power is well known, but if it is a symbol that in some way empowers anyone, does it then really matter if a being was created by humans 300 years ago, or by God 5 million years ago, or by AI last week as long as you can achieve anything with it?
Let's all be adults and keep it on topic

The point is: why do some people who consider themselves pagan or opposed to Jewish dogmas still tend to accept the Jewish framework and base their understanding of the occult and mysteries on Jewish texts?
Is that a true form of rebellion or rejection, or just a way to play the victim?
I’m not talking about Jewish Kabbalah practitioners or other authentic Jewish traditions; I mean those who claim to be free thinkers — the ones who are supposed to question dogmas.

 

[Morell]

The point is: why do some people who consider themselves pagan or opposed to Jewish dogmas still tend to accept the Jewish framework and base their understanding of the occult and mysteries on Jewish texts?
Is that a true form of rebellion or rejection, or just a way to play the victim?
I’m not talking about Jewish Kabbalah practitioners or other authentic Jewish traditions; I mean those who claim to be free thinkers — the ones who are supposed to question dogmas.

It is neither rebellion, nor rejection, it is building their path, practice and understanding from what is available to them.

 

[MorganBlack]

Nobody is "accepting Jewish dogmas." That is a straw-man logical fallacy.

For those of us who work in the 'Western Magic tradition' which is a more of a hodge-podge than we prefer , we have all had to grapple with that fact that most of it is transmitted through "Abrahamic" source material. Chaos magic aside, your other option for more trad magic is "pagan" Greek, which is totally valid.

 

[Yazata]

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The point is: why do some people who consider themselves pagan or opposed to Jewish dogmas still tend to accept the Jewish framework and base their understanding of the occult and mysteries on Jewish texts?
Is that a true form of rebellion or rejection, or just a way to play the victim?
I’m not talking about Jewish Kabbalah practitioners or other authentic Jewish traditions; I mean those who claim to be free thinkers — the ones who are supposed to question dogmas.

Probably because it's cohesive and fits the purpose they have in mind?