Lilith is a modern invention

[MorganBlack]

Well said, Yazata

I get it sucks to be late to the party. But It dos not mean you have to 100% be beholden to history

Look. You have to find the cognate ideas ("archetypes") in your own culture.

And please do. Just don't try to destroy or erase the people whose stuff you are playing with .

This is how it works.

Take the Norse "magic" runestaves , which took Jewish Kabbalah, and other "Abrahamic" sources like Agrippa and then ret-conned them into the forms of "Norse" mythology , what were originally , way way back when, actually-ancient Afro-Semitic "archetypal" ideas

(Link removed)

It works. Not becasue the Odin, or Icelandic fairy tales are real - or at last not like a potato or a ham sandwich is really real. But because, in my UPG, we are all mini-gods, We can make anything work.

But you have to honor the people who came before you. Give credit to the people whose stuff you're claiming as you own, or it's just neo-Wiccan fakelore.


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Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 6:48 PM

Crap. I didn't even notice it has a webshop attached.
Apologies. I hate occult commercialism.

And alternate educational source to go with the above.

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[voidcat]

I'm going to answer this as someone who mixes multiple paths and has a draw towards Jewish mysticism despite not being Jewish...

My path isn't based on historical understanding. Its based on what works for me and what resonates with me. I try not to culturally approrate stuff. In terms of Lilith I don't think she belongs to just Judaism. I think her mythology has evolved into its own thing. Many religions take from each other. Heck I'm thinking of one modern path right now as i write this called Trinitarian Wicca(also called christian wicca). It's my opinion when you mix more then one religion together it's not two conflicting religions but it's own thing that mixes those religion. Trinitarian Wiccan as a result isn't Wicca or Christianity it's a mix of both paths and will have elements that don't line up with either path. It's a new thing it's own thing.

I think people who are concerned about dogma get too caught up on labels. They are guides not definers. A term that resonates and helps you explain things. One way to be all about dogma is to restrict things and say a Pagan can't take ideas or characters they like that work for them from an abrahamic path. That's creating a dogma a rule. Ironic.

 

[aviaf]

Yeah, Lilith, as she's commonly represented, is a relatively modern invention. But so what? Not one of my spirit court, but plenty of modern magicians call "her" and report in with good results (in my book) whatever "she" is.

The grimoires do magicians a disservice by presenting the daimons as D&D Monster Manual entries, as whole, distinct, and separate persons. The grims weave together four mythic threads and root cultures: the Jewish (with Babylonian in the background), Christian, Arabic, and "pagan" Greek.

What other stories do you prefer?

Usually, people railing against "the Jewish influence" in magic are a bunch of dumbfuck Odinists who try to shoehorn in some of the 20th-century Theosophical Neopagan horseshit masquerading as "Ye Ancient Northern Magic" - from the wise, sagely and mostly hallucinated "Ancient Frozen Paganistan" peoples, we have to presume.

I’ll agree with you up front on Lilith — she’s a modern synthesis, and calling her invention isn’t a problem. Plenty of currents, spirits, and archetypes we work with today are composites that have evolved over time. What matters is whether the current answers when engaged, not whether it has pristine antiquity.

That said, the thing that really gets me is the Abrahamic frameworks dominating so much of modern magical thought. Monotheistic religion isn’t spirituality — it’s ideology. It exists to control behavior, generate wealth for its priests, and enforce obedience through fear. Everything pre-existing — the Old Ones, ancestral currents, runes, folk traditions — gets flattened, moralized, and sanitized. Magic becomes rule-following; spirit becomes guilt and obedience instead of wonder and engagement.

The Norse current, by contrast, resonates because it’s real, alive, and relational. It’s grounded in land, ancestors, the seasons, and the cosmos. It doesn’t demand kneeling, confession, or tithes. It responds to courage, insight, and practice. That’s why I work with it — it’s potent, uncorrupted by ideology, and a living continuity with powers older than the dogma trying to erase them. As for the “dumbfuck Odinists” jab… wow. I laughed, I cringed, and I think the only thing flatter than that insult is the depth of thought behind it.

 

[Faria]

Monotheistic religion isn’t spirituality — it’s ideology. It exists to control behavior, generate wealth for its priests, and enforce obedience through fear.

Most of what people hate about "Abrahamic" religion was exactly the same for non-Abrahamic religion. Vikings had to pay tithes, too. Some of the Celtic societies imposed strict appearance standards and would tax people for being too fat. Socrates' big crime was refusal to believe in Zeus. If you think Jesus fans impose some crazy BS on people, look at what Babylonians, Mayans, Celts, and other societies imposed on their people. If you think the Buddhists are exempt, look at Japan before WWII. Priesthood corruption has been going on forever. Everywhere you have Big Religion, you will find people being forced to believe nonsense and forced conformity to arbitrary behavioral standards. It's a feature of organized religion across the board, with a few exceptions here and there. Even in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, you can easily find serious depth of thought and people who see those as fulfilling and liberating spiritual traditions.

 

[MorganBlack]

Monotheistic religion isn’t spirituality — it’s ideology.

Man, I do get where you're coming from Aviaf. I many not sound it, but I am sympathetic, but that's too broad a brush.

Here's hoping a little of this might be useful, for everyone's effort at mythic syncretism for practical sorcery, be it with Lilith or any mythic figure, especially any "dramatis personae" that becomes a spirit or full theophanic manifestation. Cherish those. Wherever they come from. In whatever mythic framework you prefer.

My ancestors, on my mom's side, the Nahua Native Americans, changed Catholicism much as Catholicism changed us. Western Magic is closer to the boots-on-the-ground practices of so-called "Folk" Catholicism than most suspect. We take those tools, stories, and spirits and apply them for our own purposes. None of it requires taking any of it literally. (Many do, but that is on them).

You have probably not spent much time around Mexican Catholicism, but while it's not all perfect, Catholicism - outside the tiny church hierarchy- is very diverse. On a practical level it works less as a dogma as much as a gigantic umbrella for many, many kinds of practices, from mystical theology to exorcism, and spirits. All the things you like: the spirits, the ancestors, connection to the land, the dead, brujeria and folk magic, angels are contained inside the Curch which functions as an distributed ancient time capsule of many culture's sorcerous practices.

(Not recruiting anyone here, btw)

Not that long ago, it included very "pagan" practices like burying your baby who has died in the attic, so its shade can protect you from hostile spirits. There is nothing more "pagan" today than that, even if presented in an "Abrahamic" mythic framework.

My point here is not to advocate for the Holy See, a bunch of pedophile bankers, but not to throw all the "Abrahamic" babies out when looking for the Pure Religion, and assume you can do better without learning why that magical and necromancy is preserved inside the "Abrahamic" carrier signals in the first place. After that, do whatever.

I love Lovecraft myself and the GV spirits decide to sometimes appear in those eldritch forms. It's a joke they play. It also does not mean they are literally Lovecraftian entities any more than they are Catholic ones. These are just useful languages for us to communicate with each other in the Mystery Play.

 

[SerpentBakery]

Occultists have always had some sort of arousal towards the exotic, because it allows them to feel as if they're tapping into a well of hidden knowledge without having to think about it too much. I refer mostly to actual historical elites and the like, not necessarily people on this forum - I have no idea what you nerds practice, and I say this as some type of nerd myself.

The Lilith thing is to be expected. Corrupt/ignorant people looking for power use an incomplete archetype as a straw doll to shove a bunch of perception into, so it gains power through means of being witnessed and addressed/named under a certain label by others, and then use it for their own purposes (which vary from dark magician to dark magician).

Half of it was intentional, the other half was a bunch of wizards tripping over their own robes, and now we have university students dedicating pot noodles to "Lilith". Names have power insofar as they are conduits for vitality/perception. The more attention a name is given, the more magical potential it holds in terms of ritual manipulation alone, generally and theoretically speaking. The practice of this theory has more factors going into it of course, but I'm not about to drop an entire grimoire on this website. The catch is that it holds no objective power under the world's structure and if you know anything about jack you can easily dissolve it and return to sender.

For what purpose? Easy, to corrupt the magical potential of people that have the ability for it with false archetypes (the whole "pulling wool over one's eyes" shebang). Mostly. A lot of the people that have done such things have essentially eaten their own delirium, also, and now suffer from the same sickness they have cast over others. Simply how causality works. If you act like a clown, God will allow you to be a clown by sending down your facepaint with a paint gun. Demonic bread is never worth eating, for this reason and more, y'see...

So, yes, OP, you see well and "Lilith" isn't the only one this has happened to. Some are actual archetypes twisted in meaning into something that is literally just not true (which also makes them incomplete in another sense), or they are simply minor spirits that are completely taken out of context and caste for.... God knows what reason.

More twisted than a pretzel. But this is simply how I see things, others likely disagree.

 

[Fr. Maximagus]

Lilith, more than most other feminine spirits/deities, has a special place of reverence in contemporary culture, especially along occultists. Almost any other deity, there is a mountain of evidence that such a thing existed as an object of devotion at some time, somewhere. The details are often sketchy, but nobody denies the existence of Hera-worship or Isis-worship, or hundreds of other types of spirits from all religions.

I contend that Lilith is not pagan at all, but (like Satan) is actually just a character within the Judeo-Christian religion, and that it is hypocritical to attempt to escape or reject Christianity while praying to one of its components. And I think that is a trap laid by design, marketed to women falling out of Judaism and Christianity. Lilith fan base allows people to think they've created distance from the cult when in fact they are going deeper into it, following an idea whose skeleton is entirely controlled by Bible doctrine no matter what they might point at in terms of archaeology.

So just to be clear, you are ganging on all satanists (&Lilith followers) calling them all hypocrites?
You very well might be, I’m only asking for clarification.
Cause that would be QUITE a statement! lol

 

[Faria]

So just to be clear, you are ganging on all satanists (&Lilith followers) calling them all hypocrites?

Not long ago, pagandom hitched onto the Margaret Murray bandwagon. Many of them thought of witchcraft as some kind of pre-christian paleo-cult, and more recently it has been soundly proven that a lot of those assumptions were wrong. Gardnerian Wicca in its early forms was a lot of flogging and nudity, a blend of the Malleus Maleficarum, the Key of Solomon, and the Book of the Law, all things that grew out of Christian mania and not from paleo-paganism. So the attempt to escape Christianity led them to something ultimately defined by Christianity.

You cannot have Satanism without Christianity. Satanism is a kind of Christianity. The church doesn't get to define what the Satanists reject, but the organized rejection of church cannot exist without church.

There are tons of superstitions about Lilith in Judaism. Believing in Lilith is not Babylonian or some other thing, it's Judaism. It was invented by rabbis and has propagated (until quite recently) exclusively among Jews and in Jewish lore. People who equate Lilith to figures of Babylonian religion are.. the Bible, and one 19th century book referencing one word and edited by two Jewish people. You can make of that what you want but to me it looks more like Lilith is part of Judaism.

If someone has been maltreated by a religion or think it sucks, they might do better by getting involved in something that isnt built by the same people running the evil cult they don't like.

 

[Fr. Maximagus]

Not long ago, pagandom hitched onto the Margaret Murray bandwagon. Many of them thought of witchcraft as some kind of pre-christian paleo-cult, and more recently it has been soundly proven that a lot of those assumptions were wrong. Gardnerian Wicca in its early forms was a lot of flogging and nudity, a blend of the Malleus Maleficarum, the Key of Solomon, and the Book of the Law, all things that grew out of Christian mania and not from paleo-paganism. So the attempt to escape Christianity led them to something ultimately defined by Christianity.

You cannot have Satanism without Christianity. Satanism is a kind of Christianity. The church doesn't get to define what the Satanists reject, but the organized rejection of church cannot exist without church.

There are tons of superstitions about Lilith in Judaism. Believing in Lilith is not Babylonian or some other thing, it's Judaism. It was invented by rabbis and has propagated (until quite recently) exclusively among Jews and in Jewish lore. People who equate Lilith to figures of Babylonian religion are.. the Bible, and one 19th century book referencing one word and edited by two Jewish people. You can make of that what you want but to me it looks more like Lilith is part of Judaism.

If someone has been maltreated by a religion or think it sucks, they might do better by getting involved in something that isnt built by the same people running the evil cult they don't like.

So if Christianity died tomorrow there would be no more satanists, according to you?

Thats clearly absurd. You honestly think the satanic current didn’t exist before Jesus allegedly walked the earth?

obviously it wasn’t called satanism, but I assure you, the current is more ancient than Christianity.

 

[Faria]

You honestly think the satanic current didn’t exist before Jesus allegedly walked the earth?

obviously it wasn’t called satanism, but I assure you, the current is more ancient than Christianity.

The term satanist was first applied to Martin Luther. Self-identifying Satanism, much later. I do not subscribe to the notion of "currents."

 

[MorganBlack]

Faria, yep yep. History, muh brothers.

19th and 20th century ""pagan" revivalism was the result of scads of academics looking at fairy tales. Neopagan "witchcraft" was never a thing... at least not how they thought of it, and is basically the result of mass academic confirmation bias in English speaking countries.

For newcomers , especially any non-native English speakers who have only recently encountered this very late Anglophone manifestation of "magic" on the internet:

Professor Ronald Hutton's book, The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft, published in 1998 originally if I recall, pretty much single handidly nuked pagan "magic" revivalism and from space. The various neo-pagan "Wiccan-isms" have spent the past 26 years wanderings in the desert after the book came out.

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Not recruiting, but Chaos Magic is a much better place for that cringe suburban "pagan" theater-kid LARP.

I hammer on this more than I really want to becasue they left their maypole, blot , coven, and have been invading trad sorcery and Goetic spaces over the past decade or so.

Bcak to the main topic. I love the Demonolators, btw. Just fam. Even if I am not one, nor use their modern magic techniques (which work, I hear)

 

[Evara]

Nobody is "accepting Jewish dogmas." That is a straw-man logical fallacy.

For those of us who work in the 'Western Magic tradition' which is a more of a hodge-podge than we prefer , we have all had to grapple with that fact that most of it is transmitted through "Abrahamic" source material. Chaos magic aside, your other option for more trad magic is "pagan" Greek, which is totally valid.

I mean... the pantheon that doesn't really have much to show in terms of godforms having a tradition that uses a lot of black magic shouldn't be a shocker... If anything, it makes perfect sense.

And it would be terrible if things weren't hodge-podge. I love the cultural chaos of black magic.