[Help] Looking For Practical Step By Step Training Systems Similar To Initiation Into Hermetics (I've Already Seen Quareia)

[Elementriloquist]

IIH (Initiation Into Hermetics) is the best one I've found so far. I'm using it for my training, but I'm looking for another system that melds well with it so it can fill out the gaps (in time), and hopefully have an effect of increasing one's results.

The only system I've found that comes close is Quareia but the two don't really go well together. I can already see that the very first exercise in Quareia (meditation exercise) conflicts with the step by step system of IIH. Quareia also seems to bring in a lot of things that are later in the IIH system to the beginning of it's own system.

Bardon's entire system revolves around training yourself mentally, psychically and physically, in a very specific step by step order, in order to get the most effective results and control, even warning readers not to skip steps as not to spoil their progress and end up becoming an incomplete (unbalanced) magician.

IIH and Quareia can't be the only two detailed practical occult training systems in a step by step format. There has to atleast be a few more that I'm simply not aware of.

I only found iIH because I stumbled upon it by chance, so there has to be more that I just haven't found yet.

Once again I'll list the criteria of what I'm looking for:
1. Practical Training (the book is more focused on explaining training methods and practice of magic rather than theory).
2. Step by Step System (the book guides you through a step by step process).

Thank you in advance to anyone who offers their suggestions. Even if what you offer doesn't fit what I'm looking for it may lead me to find that very thing.

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2023

Even if you don't have a book that has mental, psychic and physical exercises all together but instead it's just a step by step system of mental exercises alone, or psychic exercises alone, please mention it.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Modern Magick? 72 Angels of Magick?

 

[Elementriloquist]

Modern Magick? 72 Angels of Magick?

Thank you for the suggestions.

I know that the 72 Angels one is by an author named "Damon Brand" (Gallery Of Magic) and it is nowhere near anything like Initiation Into Hermetics or Quareia (I've looked through that book long ago, have it on my PC already). TBH I think all of the Gallery Of Magic books are kinda "gimmicky" and if they are legit they will only be of benefit to people who aren't beginners (like myself) and already have a foundation.

It just sounds dangerous for a beginner to just jump into trying to evoke angels.

If you are talking about Modern Magick by Donald Kraig I just downloaded it. It seems close enough, it's definitely exercise focused but it seems to align more with Quareia than Initiation Into Hermetics. I'll spend some time reading through to see how well it fits. Maybe I'm actually expecting too much by thinking I'll find a book that syncs with Initiation Into Hermetics.

 

[Al-Zalaam]

You're not going to find what you're looking for, I suspect.

That is one of the distinctive qualities of the IIH in comparison to other works, it is a profoundly comprehensive set of straightforward instruction meant to lead from beginning to end, from neophyte to adept, developing every brick and every inch from head to toe.

The IIH isn't all-encompassing of all the kinds of magic there are, but in terms of practical magical development, you're probably not going to find another work that neatly covers every step of development in careful consideration like the IIH does.
But other traditions and magical practices can be incorporated into the IIH just fine, as I have known others who use the IIH as their foundation while still involving with other traditions like nordic practices, daoism, divination, ancestor worship, etc. to fulfill their personal path.

I am curious what "gaps" you perceive in the IIH and are trying to fill, though.
As I've said, the IIH makes a good foundation regardless of whatever else you may be interested in, so perhaps what you're looking for can just be added into your path with the IIH without trying to pursue two distinctly whole systems at the same time.

 

[Elementriloquist]

You're not going to find what you're looking for, I suspect.

That is one of the distinctive qualities of the IIH in comparison to other works, it is a profoundly comprehensive set of straightforward instruction meant to lead from beginning to end, from neophyte to adept, developing every brick and every inch from head to toe.

Sadly I think you are right. But I don't necessarily need to find another system, just books that are exercise focused that I can choose from and try to blend them together in a manner that they do not conflict with Bardon's order of progress.

I am curious what "gaps" you perceive in the IIH and are trying to fill, though.

1. I mostly mean gaps in time. For example I'm on Mental Exercise 3 right now, you do it once in the morning and once in the evening, but I'd like to find some other things to do inbetween that are relevant to my mental training and will speed up my progress.

2. I also mean gaps with respect to "efficiency". For example, I only began seeing an increase in my time duration when I started doing other mental exercises from another book (kinda keeping that one hush hush as I'm basically trying to create my own "custom system" that has IIH as it's core).

So I'm searching for other books to test the waters and see what other exercises I can blend into this custom system.

Basically I'm trying to make an IIH system that is optimized to speed up my progress.

IIH is already perfect as it is, but I think it's possible to make it "more perfect" (with respect to the individual)

IIH is perfect for the beginner, but each beginner has their own set of problems. For example, I have an extremely overactive imagination. I can imagine anything on the spot and see it in clear detail in my mind. My mind is also always racing and my internal monologue is endless. Now think about how exercise 3 where you have to focus on a single thought/concept will be for someone like me lol.

I'm trying all these different things because I know myself, I know my mind and my own flaws, and I know I'll need extra training to help me progress with my main training.

Think about it like doing side quests so that you can grind exp and level up, so that the main quest line is easier

 

[KjEno186]

Have you already looked into The Universal Master Key, The Practice of Magickal Evocation, and The Key to the True Quabbalah, all by Bardon? (I only just started reading The Universal Master Key and have pdf's of the other two books for when I feel ready to read them.)

In the beginning I enjoyed reading McCarthy's book, The Magical Knowledge Trilogy. However, when it came to the Quareia course material itself, it just didn't click with me. Her book on Tarot was helpful and provided me with my personal favorite layout.

You might enjoy Between the Gates by Mark Stavish (there's a pdf on archive dot org that someone uploaded). It is a step by step "introductory and intermediary text on specific hermetic practices for students desiring direct experience of nonmaterial reality." In other words, it uses Qabala and Hermeticism to guide students through lucid dreaming and astral projection to the creation of the Body of Light and the Assumption of the Godform. I cannot offer any commentary on effectiveness at this time.

 

[Al-Zalaam]

Sadly I think you are right. But I don't necessarily need to find another system, just books that are exercise focused that I can choose from and try to blend them together in a manner that they do not conflict with Bardon's order of progress.


1. I mostly mean gaps in time. For example I'm on Mental Exercise 3 right now, you do it once in the morning and once in the evening, but I'd like to find some other things to do inbetween that are relevant to my mental training and will speed up my progress.

2. I also mean gaps with respect to "efficiency". For example, I only began seeing an increase in my time duration when I started doing other mental exercises from another book (kinda keeping that one hush hush as I'm basically trying to create my own "custom system" that has IIH as it's core).

So I'm searching for other books to test the waters and see what other exercises I can blend into this custom system.

Basically I'm trying to make an IIH system that is optimized to speed up my progress.

IIH is already perfect as it is, but I think it's possible to make it "more perfect" (with respect to the individual)

IIH is perfect for the beginner, but each beginner has their own set of problems. For example, I have an extremely overactive imagination. I can imagine anything on the spot and see it in clear detail in my mind. My mind is also always racing and my internal monologue is endless. Now think about how exercise 3 where you have to focus on a single thought/concept will be for someone like me lol.

I'm trying all these different things because I know myself, I know my mind and my own flaws, and I know I'll need extra training to help me progress with my main training.

Think about it like doing side quests so that you can grind exp and level up, so that the main quest line is easier

Before we go racing into other practices, let's first make sure you've got a grasp on the IIH itself.

Your mental racing and internal monologue strikes me as odd - have you thoroughly mastered the first Thought Control exercise?
That kind of issue is usually put under control and largely silenced with the mastery of that specific exercise.
If you have, perhaps you should deepen it beyond the required standards Bardon gives.

Bardon's standards are generally given with efficiency in mind so are often the minimum necessary, as the IIH was designed to fit into even the most busy man's life - but they are not the highest standards attainable and may not suite the needs of every individual.
Some teachers of Bardon's work I have met recommend not just 10 minutes of perfect practice of an exercise, but 15 or even a full 30 minutes.

So if this issue of yours stubbornly persists despite reaching Bardon's standards, you may need to extend its mastery.

Also, since you are interested in having more practice and efficient development, I'd like to clarify the technical practice of these exercises.
Bardon's standard of 10 minutes is not necessarily the maximum of practice that you can take part in.
Of course, when you first begin, you are instructed to start small at 5 minutes of practice and work up to 10 minutes, but if you have been practicing for quite some time and are eager for more practice and faster development, you are more than welcome to practice these exercises for as long as you are capable of.
I did this myself, and would practice exercises like Thought Control and the last Thought Mastery exercise from 30 minutes up to an hour each.

I was much like you, zealously determined to devour as much practice as possible like a soldier in boot camp.

It's also important to understand, though you may already, that the 10 minute mark that Bardon instructs is not met by practice alone. It entails the absolutely perfect execution of the exercise for 10 minutes straight, not merely the capability of practicing that long.
So when I ask if you have met Bardon's standards for the first Thought Control exercise, I'm asking if you are capable of executing Thought Control perfectly for 10 minutes without any digressions.
And as I've said previously, if that is the case, it may be a good idea for you to push that bar higher to compensate for your unique mental needs.
You can still continue to practice the second Thought Discipline exercise as you deepen your mastery of Thought Control as well.

So, if you really have the desire for it, you can easily find an hour or two of practice within these two exercises alone, especially if we consider the possibility of practicing them twice a day.
I wouldn't recommend jumping straight into 30 minutes or an hour of practice for each exercise, though - first practice 15, then 20, then 30, then an hour if you need to take it that far.
You don't want to fry your brain in pursuit of more practice, so be responsible with it and pay attention to the strain on your mind.

Patience is a skill in itself that is necessary for initiation, so don't neglect that portion of practice either.
There is something I think you should think about though.
If what you say about your imagination is true, then take comfort in knowing that you will likely breeze through Step II of the IIH, and the Step you find yourself in now is likely going to be the hardest challenge for your personal attributes.
So I wouldn't worry about taking too long on this first step, you're going to make up for it with step that comes after.

Anyways, as for other exercises...... unfortunately I can't think of many. I used to practice exercises from outside the IIH a long time ago, but I eventually found them lacking and just opted for more practice of the IIH itself.
"Focal meditation" was one of those exercises I previously practiced. It is often practiced in Psionic communities and resembles the Thought Discipline exercise, but it doesn't quite develop the mind in the way the IIH needs and the Thought Discipline exercise itself does a better job.

If you have exercises that you've personally found somewhere else and you find them useful, then that's absolutely fine - just make sure that your practice of these exercises do not detract from your mastery of the IIH exercises.

 

[Elementriloquist]

Have you already looked into The Universal Master Key, The Practice of Magickal Evocation, and The Key to the True Quabbalah, all by Bardon? (I only just started reading The Universal Master Key and have pdf's of the other two books for when I feel ready to read them.)

I've created Audiobooks for all three of Bardon's books (they're on my YouTube Channel). The 2nd book (The Practice Of Magical Evocation) isn't even supposed to be attempted until you've reached atleast Step 8 in the 1st book (Initiation Into Hermetics). Nothing in the later books is going to help with my progress in the first book, because the first book is the prerequisite.

As for The Universal Master Key, that book is more about the elements and what traits are associated with them, so it can only really help you with the whole soul mirror exercise thing that starts in Magic Psychic Training 1 (of the 1st book). It isn't really an exercise focused book. Also I don't even think it was really written by Bardon either, but instead by one of his students (Josef Drabek), at best it was co-authored (that's why I didn't bother to create an audiobook for it and I stopped at book 3).

You might enjoy Between the Gates by Mark Stavish (there's a pdf on archive dot org that someone uploaded). It is a step by step "introductory and intermediary text on specific hermetic practices for students desiring direct experience of nonmaterial reality." In other words, it uses Qabala and Hermeticism to guide students through lucid dreaming and astral projection to the creation of the Body of Light and the Assumption of the Godform. I cannot offer any commentary on effectiveness at this time.

Thanks for the info, checked it out, it's not what I'm looking for at all.

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2023

Your mental racing and internal monologue strikes me as odd - have you thoroughly mastered the first Thought Control exercise?

If you are talking about the 1st one, this is another perfect example of how our mental differences/quirks can make our experience in the training drastically different.

For example, in the book it says:
"At first, you will find that there are rushing up to you thoughts concerning every-day affairs, professional worries and such like. Take the behavior of a silent observer towards these trains of thoughts, freely and independently."

When I do the exercise, I get thoughts of nothing, my mind is blank with respect to those things. All that happens is segments of silence and nothing and then random sounds and visuals. No thoughts of work or everyday affairs pops into my mind at all.

It's also important to understand, though you may already, that the 10 minute mark that Bardon instructs is not met by practice alone. It entails the absolutely perfect execution of the exercise for 10 minutes straight, not merely the capability of practicing that long.

I know, I did the exercise up to 10 minutes my first time and gave up and moved on to exercise 3 because It just didn't seem like it applied to me lol. Only just recently have I decided to do the whole 5 minutes on day one then 6 minutes on day 2 etc etc until 10 minutes, just for the sake of "doing it completely". But I can really just sit there for 10 minutes and if I observe my thoughts, there are no thoughts to be observed. What usually causes my mind to go into a frenzy and start imagining all manner of things is if a flash of light goes by my face and that sets of a chain reaction, but if I sat in a completely pitch black room and put ear plugs in my ears, I won't think of anything at all.

I guess that would be "cheating" if applied to exercise 4 though (vacancy of the mind). Are there rules against doing that for exercise 4?

Exercise 3 is really just the worst exercise for me. I'm getting more time without interruptions but the progress is slow and worse it fluctuates. I only reached a new "tier range" for fluctuation when I started doing a supplementary exercise. Before that I couldn't even last 1 minute. To me that's just a proof of concept. There are things I can do to greatly speed up my progress.

If you have exercises that you've personally found somewhere else and you find them useful, then that's absolutely fine - just make sure that your practice of these exercises do not detract from your mastery of the IIH exercises.

I know. That's the reason why I didn't bother with Quareia, that systems skips a lot of steps in Bardon's training. I'm only looking for exercises that don't conflict with Bardon's methods.

 

[Al-Zalaam]

If you are talking about the 1st one, this is another perfect example of how our mental differences/quirks can make our experience in the training drastically different.

For example, in the book it says:
"At first, you will find that there are rushing up to you thoughts concerning every-day affairs, professional worries and such like. Take the behavior of a silent observer towards these trains of thoughts, freely and independently."

When I do the exercise, I get thoughts of nothing, my mind is blank with respect to those things. All that happens is segments of silence and nothing and then random sounds and visuals. No thoughts of work or everyday affairs pops into my mind at all.

I must say, that is very interesting.
Most people absolutely suck at the thought control exercise in the beginning, many never getting past it.
My experience with Thought Control is similar to yours, a bit - I mostly receive random sensory impressions and few "thoughts", but either way they're treated all the same.
I also found the thought exercises of Step I quite easy in general and passed through them quickly - it would be the visual plastic imagination exercise in Step II that would force me into a near decade-long stalemate.

I know, I did the exercise up to 10 minutes my first time and gave up and moved on to exercise 3 because It just didn't seem like it applied to me lol. Only just recently have I decided to do the whole 5 minutes on day one then 6 minutes on day 2 etc etc until 10 minutes, just for the sake of "doing it completely". But I can really just sit there for 10 minutes and if I observe my thoughts, there are no thoughts to be observed. What usually causes my mind to go into a frenzy and start imagining all manner of things is if a flash of light goes by my face and that sets of a chain reaction, but if I sat in a completely pitch black room and put ear plugs in my ears, I won't think of anything at all.

That almost sounds neurological, have you ever been examined by a medical practitioner for any reason related to this trigger?
Not that I think you'd get a solution out of it, but still, it is interesting and I wonder if there's a neurological issue at work here.

Does practice in a completely illuminated room or outside during the daytime have different effects on your experience of Thought Control?
Or must it specifically be a sudden flash of light?

I guess that would be "cheating" if applied to exercise 4 though (vacancy of the mind). Are there rules against doing that for exercise 4?

Not explicitly, but I do worry that there may be a fundamental issue that will get swept under the rug if done this way.
This light-triggering thought-stream thing..... seems like something that should be dealt with or gotten to the bottom of, and breezing through Thought Control and Thought Vacancy by practicing in the dark seem like avoiding an issue that should be explored, if possible.

On one hand, luckily for you, you seem to have a great disposition for Thought Control and Thought Vacancy exercises under optimal circumstances and don't seem to need to "develop" it much.
But on the other hand, you may have to deal with a cryptic issue most others don't have to.
Assuming this triggering thing isn't unsafe or seizure-related, I would try to find a way provoke it and tame it through practice.
It doesn't seem like good protocol to let uncontrollable mental disturbances go by simply avoiding them.

It would be easier to advise your course if only I knew more about this issue and why it happens.

Exercise 3 is really just the worst exercise for me. I'm getting more time without interruptions but the progress is slow and worse it fluctuates. I only reached a new "tier range" for fluctuation when I started doing a supplementary exercise. Before that I couldn't even last 1 minute. To me that's just a proof of concept. There are things I can do to greatly speed up my progress.

Now this is where I get a little lost.
What disturbances are affecting your practice of Thought Discipline?
If you remain relatively undisturbed during Thought Control except in the case of this strange trigger, what kind of disturbances could be interrupting your concentration on a thought during Thought Discipline?
Is it that you simply lose the thought and that is the interruption, or are there actual mental intrusions breaking your focus?

On a side note, I will say this personally speaking - the third exercise under Thought Discipline was easily the most difficult exercise of Step I. It took quite a disproportionate degree of time and effort in comparison to both Thought Control and Thought Vacancy.
So, I wouldn't get too frustrated or hasty over this exercise - it's not entirely you, it really is just that hard.

Oh, and one other thing - what kind of thoughts are you using for your subject during the Thought Discipline exercise?

 

[akenu]

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[DiLoco_DelEted]

IIH (Initiation Into Hermetics) is the best one I've found so far. I'm using it for my training, but I'm looking for another system that melds well with it so it can fill out the gaps (in time), and hopefully have an effect of increasing one's results.

The only system I've found that comes close is Quareia but the two don't really go well together. I can already see that the very first exercise in Quareia (meditation exercise) conflicts with the step by step system of IIH. Quareia also seems to bring in a lot of things that are later in the IIH system to the beginning of it's own system.

Bardon's entire system revolves around training yourself mentally, psychically and physically, in a very specific step by step order, in order to get the most effective results and control, even warning readers not to skip steps as not to spoil their progress and end up becoming an incomplete (unbalanced) magician.

IIH and Quareia can't be the only two detailed practical occult training systems in a step by step format. There has to atleast be a few more that I'm simply not aware of.

I only found iIH because I stumbled upon it by chance, so there has to be more that I just haven't found yet.

Once again I'll list the criteria of what I'm looking for:
1. Practical Training (the book is more focused on explaining training methods and practice of magic rather than theory).
2. Step by Step System (the book guides you through a step by step process).

Thank you in advance to anyone who offers their suggestions. Even if what you offer doesn't fit what I'm looking for it may lead me to find that very thing.

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2023

Even if you don't have a book that has mental, psychic and physical exercises all together but instead it's just a step by step system of mental exercises alone, or psychic exercises alone, please mention it.

There is a mental alchemy booklet I have. Will try to upload tonight. Gareth Knight has a qaballistic exercises book here in the library.
What about Bardons other books. Or the Kyballion putting your IIH grasp to the test?

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2023

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Thank you!

 

[Elementriloquist]

it would be the visual plastic imagination exercise in Step II that would force me into a near decade-long stalemate.

Exercise 2 kind of confuses me though, because it doesn't even sound like an "exercise", it's more like a "lifestyle practice" you are taking on. But the thing is, I've already always been doing it before I even found the book.

The exercise states:
"The next exercise will consist in not giving way in our mind to thoughts obtruding themselves on our mind, unwanted and obstinate. For instance, we must be able not to occupy ourself any longer with the tasks and worries of our profession when we come home from it and return to the family circle and the privacy. All thoughts not belonging to our privacy must be set aside, and we ought to manage to become quite a different personality instantly. And just the other way round: in our job, all our thoughts have to be concentrated in it exclusively, and we must not allow them to digress or wander, say, home, to private affairs or somewhere else. This has to be practised time and again, until it has developed a habit. One ought to accustom oneself, above all, to achieve whatever one does, whether in professional work or in privacy, with full consciousness, regardless of the point being a big or a trifle one. This exercise should be kept for a lifetime, because it is sharpening the mind and strengthening the consciousness and the memory."

I never got any problems with Step 2, but like I said before, the individual differences that we all have with respect to our brain chemistry, personality, etc will affect how the exercises are for us.

I don't drink or smoke, I don't put myself in stressful situations, most people I talk to speak about credit cards like they are evil but I have no problem using a credit card because I have self control and I pretty much treat it like a debit card and only spend money that I have in my savings account to immediately pay off the debt, etc. I don't really socialize much, I don't date women that like drama and like to argue, I don't join friend groups of people who have chaotic lives, because the chaos of their lives can often bleed over into yours, etc. Also, a lot of people in this modern era are living outside of their means for the sake of appearances and fitting in (brand name clothing, vehicles, devices, etc), which likely leads to them always having to stress about their finances (even when at home).

Most people live "exciting" "chaotic" lives, I don't, I prefer peace and being worry free. Maybe that's why the stresses of work never intrude upon my home life (because I'm not stressed out about trying to pay bills because I'm living outside of my means). Vice versa, I don't have a complicated drama filled home life either, so thoughts about my home life don't intrude upon my mind when I'm at work.

I think with the way my mind works and the life I've chosen for myself, things will just work differently for me. For example, most people in the occult world either have children or plan on having children. I don't want any children at all and I'd prefer to live alone and just travel the world. So I'm not going to have to worry about "making time" for my practice or anything like that (whereas this will be a common problem most occultists will face in life). A lot of problems many occultists will face simply won't apply to me, because I'm kind of a "pseudo-hermit" already.

Does practice in a completely illuminated room or outside during the daytime have different effects on your experience of Thought Control?
Or must it specifically be a sudden flash of light?

No, it's light period. If my eyes are open I can imagine anything in detail in my mind, I only really struggle to imagine when my eyes are closed. It can still imagine things in detail, but there's color degradation to what I'm seeing, it's like everything is dimly lit.

Here's a good example, I'm actually doing it right now before typing this out. With my eyes open, if I imagine a bright light it will stay bright, if I imagine a bright light with my eyes closed, it will start off bright and then it will start to become dimmer over time.

Maybe it's just normal that it's easier to imagine bright environments/scenes when your eyes are exposed to light, and it's easier to imagine dark environments/scenes when your eyes aren't exposed to light.

The flash of light I'm talking about is my phone or my laptop. Don't worry, it's nothing neurological like epilepsy. I should probably try some complete sensory deprivation to test the results. But I figure doing something like that would be "cheating", because you should be able to focus under almost any circumstance.

I use earplugs because the cars passing nearby always mess up the exercise. If I'm focusing on something and I hear a car pass by, I'll immediately imagine a car driving. I can suppress it a bit better because of the training, but it'll pop into my mind at some point.

Is it that you simply lose the thought and that is the interruption, or are there actual mental intrusions breaking your focus?

Oh, and one other thing - what kind of thoughts are you using for your subject during the Thought Discipline exercise?

Maybe I'm being too strict, but right now the way I'm doing the exercise is that I'm focusing on the idea of fire. What fire does & what it feels like (warmth). But my mind is very chaotic, it's almost like my subconscious is messing with me because it thinks it's funny. When I'm thinking about fire, naturally I'll starting imagining fire, to make it easier for me to keep that visual, I imagine a vast space covered in flames, but suddenly sometimes the flames will warp and freeze themselves and become ice lol. Or something else random may happen, depends on what visuals I've been exposed to recently (watched a movie, etc).

Also sound will cause an interruption too. My mind is just highly responsive to stimuli.

I'm getting better, and it happens less often, but my imagination has just always been vivid and very active. So this exercise is me literally trying to force my brain to not do what it's been doing ever since I was born. Often times I'd day dream on purpose out of boredom.

My rule is if I imagine anything that isn't aligned with the thought/concept I'm trying to focus on, I end the exercise and mark the duration (in minutes and seconds - I use the stopwatch on my phone).

I remember speaking to someone on reddit that said they only focused on the thoughts alone and that what they imagined wasn't what they considered as part of the exercise, but to me that doesn't make sense, because if you are focusing on something but imagining the opposite, that should count as an interruption to your flow of thoughts.

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2023

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Thanks I'll check it out, looks exercise focused. This is your own training system right?

 

[akenu]

Exercise 2 kind of confuses me though, because it doesn't even sound like an "exercise", it's more like a "lifestyle practice" you are taking on. But the thing is, I've already always been doing it before I even found the book.

The exercise states:
"The next exercise will consist in not giving way in our mind to thoughts obtruding themselves on our mind, unwanted and obstinate. For instance, we must be able not to occupy ourself any longer with the tasks and worries of our profession when we come home from it and return to the family circle and the privacy. All thoughts not belonging to our privacy must be set aside, and we ought to manage to become quite a different personality instantly. And just the other way round: in our job, all our thoughts have to be concentrated in it exclusively, and we must not allow them to digress or wander, say, home, to private affairs or somewhere else. This has to be practised time and again, until it has developed a habit. One ought to accustom oneself, above all, to achieve whatever one does, whether in professional work or in privacy, with full consciousness, regardless of the point being a big or a trifle one. This exercise should be kept for a lifetime, because it is sharpening the mind and strengthening the consciousness and the memory."

I never got any problems with Step 2, but like I said before, the individual differences that we all have with respect to our brain chemistry, personality, etc will affect how the exercises are for us.

I don't drink or smoke, I don't put myself in stressful situations, most people I talk to speak about credit cards like they are evil but I have no problem using a credit card because I have self control and I pretty much treat it like a debit card and only spend money that I have in my savings account to immediately pay off the debt, etc. I don't really socialize much, I don't date women that like drama and like to argue, I don't join friend groups of people who have chaotic lives, because the chaos of their lives can often bleed over into yours, etc. Also, a lot of people in this modern era are living outside of their means for the sake of appearances and fitting in (brand name clothing, vehicles, devices, etc), which likely leads to them always having to stress about their finances (even when at home).

Most people live "exciting" "chaotic" lives, I don't, I prefer peace and being worry free. Maybe that's why the stresses of work never intrude upon my home life (because I'm not stressed out about trying to pay bills because I'm living outside of my means). Vice versa, I don't have a complicated drama filled home life either, so thoughts about my home life don't intrude upon my mind when I'm at work.

I think with the way my mind works and the life I've chosen for myself, things will just work differently for me. For example, most people in the occult world either have children or plan on having children. I don't want any children at all and I'd prefer to live alone and just travel the world. So I'm not going to have to worry about "making time" for my practice or anything like that (whereas this will be a common problem most occultists will face in life). A lot of problems many occultists will face simply won't apply to me, because I'm kind of a "pseudo-hermit" already.


No, it's light period. If my eyes are open I can imagine anything in detail in my mind, I only really struggle to imagine when my eyes are closed. It can still imagine things in detail, but there's color degradation to what I'm seeing, it's like everything is dimly lit.

Here's a good example, I'm actually doing it right now before typing this out. With my eyes open, if I imagine a bright light it will stay bright, if I imagine a bright light with my eyes closed, it will start off bright and then it will start to become dimmer over time.

Maybe it's just normal that it's easier to imagine bright environments/scenes when your eyes are exposed to light, and it's easier to imagine dark environments/scenes when your eyes aren't exposed to light.

The flash of light I'm talking about is my phone or my laptop. Don't worry, it's nothing neurological like epilepsy. I should probably try some complete sensory deprivation to test the results. But I figure doing something like that would be "cheating", because you should be able to focus under almost any circumstance.

I use earplugs because the cars passing nearby always mess up the exercise. If I'm focusing on something and I hear a car pass by, I'll immediately imagine a car driving. I can suppress it a bit better because of the training, but it'll pop into my mind at some point.



Maybe I'm being too strict, but right now the way I'm doing the exercise is that I'm focusing on the idea of fire. What fire does & what it feels like (warmth). But my mind is very chaotic, it's almost like my subconscious is messing with me because it thinks it's funny. When I'm thinking about fire, naturally I'll starting imagining fire, to make it easier for me to keep that visual, I imagine a vast space covered in flames, but suddenly sometimes the flames will warp and freeze themselves and become ice lol. Or something else random may happen, depends on what visuals I've been exposed to recently (watched a movie, etc).

Also sound will cause an interruption too. My mind is just highly responsive to stimuli.

I'm getting better, and it happens less often, but my imagination has just always been vivid and very active. So this exercise is me literally trying to force my brain to not do what it's been doing ever since I was born. Often times I'd day dream on purpose out of boredom.

My rule is if I imagine anything that isn't aligned with the thought/concept I'm trying to focus on, I end the exercise and mark the duration (in minutes and seconds - I use the stopwatch on my phone).

I remember speaking to someone on reddit that said they only focused on the thoughts alone and that what they imagined wasn't what they considered as part of the exercise, but to me that doesn't make sense, because if you are focusing on something but imagining the opposite, that should count as an interruption to your flow of thoughts.

Post automatically merged: Feb 7, 2023

Thanks I'll check it out, looks exercise focused. This is your own training system right?

Yes. It's a combination of different elements of my past practice, including the information on hypnotism by Papus, etc.

Just don't mind the English, I used to write the book on the phone and it would deserve a thorough proofreading.

 

[KjEno186]

Have you read any supplemental works? For example, A Bardon Companion by Rawn Clark:

According to his own words, Bardon arranged IIH as if it was “meant for the busiest man”, and even though Bardon’s way of phrasing things may seem somewhat archaic and oftentimes confusing to a modern reader, the exercises he is describing in Step One are rudimentary and the essence of simplicity, designed with the absolute beginner in mind. Furthermore, according to Bardon’s own instructions, they are each to be completed relatively quickly, within one to two weeks in most cases.​

I found that Clark's ability to rephrase the goals of each exercise was helpful.

There are four distinct mental exercises in Step One. The very first exercise of the mental training is the simplest of all. Simply sit down, close your eyes and observe your mind. [additional explanations not included for brevity] ...​

​

The second mental exercise... in this exercise you are simply ignoring the mind chatter as you learned in the first exercise and now, instead of observing your mind, you are focusing your attention upon what you are physically doing.​

​

The main difference here is that you are actively participating with your awareness instead of passively observing. However, since you are not devoting the major portion of your awareness to your mind chatter, the quantity and indeed the quality of your attention focused upon the present moment will seem unusually sharp and powerful compared to "normal." ...​

​

The third mental exercise is a natural extension of the second, namely the focusing of your attention upon a specific internal idea or train of thoughts instead of an external activity. This means that you turn your awareness inward once again and while ignoring the mind chatter, you focus all of your attention upon a pre-chosen idea. ...​

​

...empty silence is the focus of the fourth mental exercise. Of course the maintaining of this focus upon emptiness requires that you completely detach yourself from any thoughts that might arise within your mind, similar to the detachment you achieved in the first mental exercise, and also like in the first exercise, you must passively observe the emptiness without any expectation.​

​

Frankly, this four step process has made more sense to me in a very short amount of time compared to all the meditation exercises in Quareia and other books I've read up until now. The subsequent Astral work is closely related, and I see no reason why creation of the 'mirrors' need wait until perfect thought control is achieved.

There should be no delays in this process of self-cataloging, no lingering over it for months on end without ever finishing. This sort of lingering and obsessing is a manifestation of subconscious self-sabotage which must be banished if you are to generate something useful. Just be serious about it and get it done, without delays and excuses. Making your first list of negative character traits should take no longer than two weeks at the most.​

​

I recommend that you aim for at least 100 items in your list. It does not have to be “perfect”. Perfection has no place in this process. The soul mirror you are creating is to be an organic, living, changing thing that will be your companion for the rest of your life, so let it evolve over time by not demanding that it be perfect at birth.​

​

Perfection, or at least the striving for perfection, also has no place in the subsequent process of assigning each item on your list to an Elemental influence. Just do the best you can by meditating briefly on each item and note which Element feels correct. Don’t over-intellectualize this process either! You should spend no more than a few hours total on this, spread over no more than a few days. Remember, this mirror will be with you from now on so you can always correct errors that reveal themselves a day, a month or a year from now.​

​

Give this a try:

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Thanks for providing this! You might consider putting it into the Book Shares section of the forum.

 

[Crows&Ravens]

Give this a try:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Thanks for sharing that.

 

[Elementriloquist]

Have you read any supplemental works? For example, A Bardon Companion by Rawn Clark:

According to his own words, Bardon arranged IIH as if it was “meant for the busiest man”, and even though Bardon’s way of phrasing things may seem somewhat archaic and oftentimes confusing to a modern reader, the exercises he is describing in Step One are rudimentary and the essence of simplicity, designed with the absolute beginner in mind. Furthermore, according to Bardon’s own instructions, they are each to be completed relatively quickly, within one to two weeks in most cases.​

I found that Clark's ability to rephrase the goals of each exercise was helpful.

There are four distinct mental exercises in Step One. The very first exercise of the mental training is the simplest of all. Simply sit down, close your eyes and observe your mind. [additional explanations not included for brevity] ...​

​

The second mental exercise... in this exercise you are simply ignoring the mind chatter as you learned in the first exercise and now, instead of observing your mind, you are focusing your attention upon what you are physically doing.​

​

The main difference here is that you are actively participating with your awareness instead of passively observing. However, since you are not devoting the major portion of your awareness to your mind chatter, the quantity and indeed the quality of your attention focused upon the present moment will seem unusually sharp and powerful compared to "normal." ...​

​

The third mental exercise is a natural extension of the second, namely the focusing of your attention upon a specific internal idea or train of thoughts instead of an external activity. This means that you turn your awareness inward once again and while ignoring the mind chatter, you focus all of your attention upon a pre-chosen idea. ...​

​

...empty silence is the focus of the fourth mental exercise. Of course the maintaining of this focus upon emptiness requires that you completely detach yourself from any thoughts that might arise within your mind, similar to the detachment you achieved in the first mental exercise, and also like in the first exercise, you must passively observe the emptiness without any expectation.​

​

Frankly, this four step process has made more sense to me in a very short amount of time compared to all the meditation exercises in Quareia and other books I've read up until now. The subsequent Astral work is closely related, and I see no reason why creation of the 'mirrors' need wait until perfect thought control is achieved.

There should be no delays in this process of self-cataloging, no lingering over it for months on end without ever finishing. This sort of lingering and obsessing is a manifestation of subconscious self-sabotage which must be banished if you are to generate something useful. Just be serious about it and get it done, without delays and excuses. Making your first list of negative character traits should take no longer than two weeks at the most.​

​

I recommend that you aim for at least 100 items in your list. It does not have to be “perfect”. Perfection has no place in this process. The soul mirror you are creating is to be an organic, living, changing thing that will be your companion for the rest of your life, so let it evolve over time by not demanding that it be perfect at birth.​

​

Perfection, or at least the striving for perfection, also has no place in the subsequent process of assigning each item on your list to an Elemental influence. Just do the best you can by meditating briefly on each item and note which Element feels correct. Don’t over-intellectualize this process either! You should spend no more than a few hours total on this, spread over no more than a few days. Remember, this mirror will be with you from now on so you can always correct errors that reveal themselves a day, a month or a year from now.​

I've checked out all those other books and they won't really help with my problem. My problem right now is controlling my chaotic mind, so I just need more mental exercises that help be build up that ability as a habit, through repetitive practice. Those supplemental works focus on explaining how to understand and execute Bardon's exercises more effectively, but they don't focus on specific root problems that individual students may have that slow down their progress (lack of concentration). People have to be self aware enough of their own shortcomings and then seek out remedies.

TBH I think some those supplemental works are unnecessary and in some cases are just a cash grab. I've seen one guy who has books that is also selling training in IIH for like $1500 on his website lol. Like come on, he's just going to be regurgitating Bardon's work and pretending to be a guru. Anybody whose mastered up to Step 3 wouldn't even need to sell a course, because they could very easily make a lot of money very quickly by using magic. If you search "Initiation Into Hermetics" in YouTube most of the results are his videos.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I don't really trust those other works, I think a lot of these individuals are just trying to "cash in" and become a guru. Bardon is a "sweet spot", he's obscure enough that a lot of "wannabe gurus" haven't saturated the niche, but his work is prominent enough and detailed enough that a lot of new comers would trust in it's validity. This makes it prime real estate for people who want become an occult guru and make money off of students (heck, all I did was create some audiobooks for personal study and I have people in the comments of my youtube video asking me to be a mentor, if I was a scammer and a liar I could very easily take advantage).

No matter how far I reach in my training, I would never attempt to become a guru on Bardon's teachings, because I believe that his system is the most complete and perfect system for training.

The only reason I am searching for extra exercises, is because of the specific quirks (short comings) that I have with respect to my mind. I think this is the part that will differ for each student. It's not Bardon's system that's lacking, I'm lacking. There are people like me who have problems concentrating due to having an over active imagination. We would still progress (slowly) if we simply did only Bardon's exercises, but if we seek out other exercises to improve our concentration, we'll advance in Bardon's exercises even faster (at least that's what happened in my case).

It all depends on how badly you want to advance and what "quirks" you have. I'm trying to get over the first few hurdles as fast as possible because I believe I will hit a point very early (around Step 2) where there is a snowball effect, and then I'll naturally begin to progress even faster.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

Perhaps set aside fifteen minutes to meditate, first five minutes get into meditation, five minutes meditate in trance, five minutes come out of trance and meditation. Journal. Then do cathartic writing, where you start writing a journal entry or story and let your mind and spirit take control of your writing. When done, read it with an open mind and see the psychology need for therapy.
Case in point -- if you cannot get past thought control, I dont meditate and thus dont have thought control.
I do meditate really, but not regularly. Not even daily, every 2-3 days I will meditate and skip a day and repeat. These loops you must bind break and be freed from. Therapy can help in this regard.
What suggestions have you earnestly followed?
Im not one to talk, mind you. Just my two cents.

 

[Al-Zalaam]

Heydi said:
it would be the visual plastic imagination exercise in Step II that would force me into a near decade-long stalemate.

Exercise 2 kind of confuses me though, because it doesn't even sound like an "exercise", it's more like a "lifestyle practice" you are taking on. But the thing is, I've already always been doing it before I even found the book.

Oh no, you misunderstood what I said.
I wasn't referring to the second mental exercise in Step I, I was referring to the Plastic Imagination exercise found in Step II of the IIH (visualization).
I completed Step I a very long time ago, and found all the mental exercises within it relatively easy, with the exception of the third mental exercise(the second Thought Discipline exercise which you are currently practicing), which took significantly more time and effort than the other mental exercises found in Step I.
However, when I moved on to Step II, I would end up in a stalemate with the Visual Plastic Imagination exercise and remain stuck for nearly a decade.

I think with the way my mind works and the life I've chosen for myself, things will just work differently for me. For example, most people in the occult world either have children or plan on having children. I don't want any children at all and I'd prefer to live alone and just travel the world. So I'm not going to have to worry about "making time" for my practice or anything like that (whereas this will be a common problem most occultists will face in life). A lot of problems many occultists will face simply won't apply to me, because I'm kind of a "pseudo-hermit" already.

I am similar, I have absolutely no plans of having children ever, and I'm uncertain whether I care for any romantic relationships either.

Anyways, the second mental exercise of Step I, aka the first mental exercise described under the Thought Discipline category, is a cryptic exercise but it is actually quite important for long term developments, and ties into an exercise which comes much later in the IIH.
It is one of the prerequisites of Self-Realization/God-realization.

But yes, you are right, it is more of a lifestyle/healthy habit exercise than an actual meditation like the other mental exercises.
The goal is simply to maintain yourself in the center of your consciousness and remain focused and aware of yourself and the actions you are taking at any given time.
It's about not getting lost in mental wandering throughout your day, about not letting intrusive thoughts detract from your focus on whatever you happen to be doing.
It's a fundamental exercise of Conscientiousness that follows you everywhere, all the time, and helps lead to Self-Realization in the long run.

Heydi said:
Does practice in a completely illuminated room or outside during the daytime have different effects on your experience of Thought Control?
Or must it specifically be a sudden flash of light?

No, it's light period. If my eyes are open I can imagine anything in detail in my mind, I only really struggle to imagine when my eyes are closed. It can still imagine things in detail, but there's color degradation to what I'm seeing, it's like everything is dimly lit.

Here's a good example, I'm actually doing it right now before typing this out. With my eyes open, if I imagine a bright light it will stay bright, if I imagine a bright light with my eyes closed, it will start off bright and then it will start to become dimmer over time.

Maybe it's just normal that it's easier to imagine bright environments/scenes when your eyes are exposed to light, and it's easier to imagine dark environments/scenes when your eyes aren't exposed to light.

The flash of light I'm talking about is my phone or my laptop. Don't worry, it's nothing neurological like epilepsy. I should probably try some complete sensory deprivation to test the results. But I figure doing something like that would be "cheating", because you should be able to focus under almost any circumstance.

I use earplugs because the cars passing nearby always mess up the exercise. If I'm focusing on something and I hear a car pass by, I'll immediately imagine a car driving. I can suppress it a bit better because of the training, but it'll pop into my mind at some point.

I think there may have been a bit of confusion of what I was asking about.
When you practice Thought Control, the first mental exercise of Step I, does it make a difference if you are in an illuminated room/outside in the daylight, as opposed to being in the dark and quiet?
You mentioned that you usually have a completely still mind when you practice Thought Control when you practice in the dark, with very few thoughts/sensory impressions that come across, unless there is a sudden flash of light which causes your mind to go a little wild with sensory impressions, which is usually caused by things like your phone or laptop flashing apparently.

The flash of light I'm talking about is my phone or my laptop. Don't worry, it's nothing neurological like epilepsy. I should probably try some complete sensory deprivation to test the results. But I figure doing something like that would be "cheating", because you should be able to focus under almost any circumstance.

I use earplugs because the cars passing nearby always mess up the exercise. If I'm focusing on something and I hear a car pass by, I'll immediately imagine a car driving. I can suppress it a bit better because of the training, but it'll pop into my mind at some point.

Yes, you should be able to focus under any normal circumstance, and that's exactly why I'm trying to better understand these triggers of yours so that they may be tamed and put under control.

I would recommend removing the earplugs and practicing Thought Control outside in the daylight if possible (or a completely illuminated room if that's not possible), and seeing how that goes.
The external distractions like lights and sounds are an important part of the challenge of all of these mental exercises, and you must develop the conscious discipline to ignore them and keep them from being capable of breaking your focus or provoking unwarranted thought trains. You must become like a stone, blind and deaf to the outside world and impervious to its distractions while practicing.

One detail I should also mention - make sure you are practicing Thought Control (and the rest of the mental exercises) with your eyes closed. Thought control is not an external visualization exercise, it's entirely an internal observation exercise.
Little details like these can accidentally alter the functioning of these exercises in ways that are not obvious.

Heydi said:
Is it that you simply lose the thought and that is the interruption, or are there actual mental intrusions breaking your focus?

Heydi said:
Oh, and one other thing - what kind of thoughts are you using for your subject during the Thought Discipline exercise?

Maybe I'm being too strict, but right now the way I'm doing the exercise is that I'm focusing on the idea of fire. What fire does & what it feels like (warmth). But my mind is very chaotic, it's almost like my subconscious is messing with me because it thinks it's funny. When I'm thinking about fire, naturally I'll starting imagining fire, to make it easier for me to keep that visual, I imagine a vast space covered in flames, but suddenly sometimes the flames will warp and freeze themselves and become ice lol. Or something else random may happen, depends on what visuals I've been exposed to recently (watched a movie, etc).

Also sound will cause an interruption too. My mind is just highly responsive to stimuli.

I'm getting better, and it happens less often, but my imagination has just always been vivid and very active. So this exercise is me literally trying to force my brain to not do what it's been doing ever since I was born. Often times I'd day dream on purpose out of boredom.

My rule is if I imagine anything that isn't aligned with the thought/concept I'm trying to focus on, I end the exercise and mark the duration (in minutes and seconds - I use the stopwatch on my phone).

I remember speaking to someone on reddit that said they only focused on the thoughts alone and that what they imagined wasn't what they considered as part of the exercise, but to me that doesn't make sense, because if you are focusing on something but imagining the opposite, that should count as an interruption to your flow of thoughts.

The focal point of the Thought Discipline exercise can be any mental figment or thought you desire, so if you want to imagine a flame, that's entirely fine.

Your extreme responsiveness to sensory stimuli is part of why I'm suggesting that you practice Thought Control outside if possible and seeing how that goes.
Trying to put you in a position where these issues will be brought out into the open and can be combatted directly.

I'm getting better, and it happens less often, but my imagination has just always been vivid and very active. So this exercise is me literally trying to force my brain to not do what it's been doing ever since I was born. Often times I'd day dream on purpose out of boredom.

That's ok, that just means Step I is going to be the gauntlet you must get through in order to reach the rest of initiation.
It seems like this is going to be one of those uniquely tough hurdles for you that demands your utmost patience and effort, it is the test you will have to pass to move forward.

Everyone will find their own part in the IIH that are just their crux. For me, it wasn't any of the exercises in Step I, it would be Step II where I found my own unique challenge in the Plastic Imagination exercise.

My rule is if I imagine anything that isn't aligned with the thought/concept I'm trying to focus on, I end the exercise and mark the duration (in minutes and seconds - I use the stopwatch on my phone).

Oh nononono, do not do this.
I don't wish to sound rude, but this is very bad practice, and may be part of why you are moving slowly.

Distractions in the Thought Discipline exercise are entirely expected - you are meant to persevere through them and continue your practice, just as you would during Thought Control.
That is how you most efficiently condition your mind.

If you get distracted during Thought Discipline, simply recall the thought/imagination you are focusing on and continue the exercise without hesitation. This is a very normal part of the process, don't end the exercise due to distractions.
That's why I said that you can practice these exercises for as long as you are capable, if you wish for more practice.
You can sit down and expedite your progress in any of these exercises by practicing for 15 minutes, 30 minutes, or an hour straight if you really want to (don't overstrain yourself though).
It doesn't matter if there are distractions, that's the whole point of practice, you're conditioning your mind to overcome them.

I remember speaking to someone on reddit that said they only focused on the thoughts alone and that what they imagined wasn't what they considered as part of the exercise, but to me that doesn't make sense, because if you are focusing on something but imagining the opposite, that should count as an interruption to your flow of thoughts.

He's...... yeah no comment lol.
There are many people out there who really just don't know what they're doing, don't mind them.

 

[DiLoco_DelEted]

OP -- are you depressed by any chance? My depression affects my visualization and thought control.

 

[Elementriloquist]

OP -- are you depressed by any chance? My depression affects my visualization and thought control.

No, but depression has never affected my visualizations. My mind has just always been this chaotic.

Oh nononono, do not do this.
I don't wish to sound rude, but this is very bad practice, and may be part of why you are moving slowly.

Distractions in the Thought Discipline exercise are entirely expected - you are meant to persevere through them and continue your practice, just as you would during Thought Control.
That is how you most efficiently condition your mind.

So basically, mark the time where I failed at the exercise and then continue to do the exercise for an extended duration anyways for the sake of building up a tolerance.

Ok, makes sense.

He's...... yeah no comment lol.
There are many people out there who really just don't know what they're doing, don't mind them.

Lol dude, he is not the worst one. The worst comment I've seen on reddit is from a guy who said he COMPLETED the entire IIH training, then when I clicked on one of his YouTube videos he says in it that you should move on to the next step even if you haven't mastered the current one. I was dumbfounded.

It's crazy how some people can use mental gymnastics to rationalize things. His idea of "completing the training" is simply moving on whenever he feels like, regardless of whether or not he gets the results.