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One who practice nothing in all of his life how could write about magic and from where he got the moral to judge practical magic this is stunning thing.
How could a person said my theory is correct without practicing even a single practice in his whole life?
How could logic and theory heal person, bring wealth, etc? How could a magician be
Writing 1st, logic 1st, theory 1st, criticism 1st, moral 1st, practice 0, result 0, prove 0 just bla bla bla
You don't practice magick, and you don't know the theory either. Every single time in this thread you were asked to prove something, you couldn't. Every source you cited had none, or was wrong. You hold a dualistic worldview you never once examined, and you're not humble enough to even entertain the idea you might be wrong, that's not confidence, that's just closed.
You practicing "0" and getting "result 0" ain't the flex you think it is either, since you also admitted your own rules list was guesswork without the "actual correspondence," so by your own math you at 0 too.
And this dishonesty across the thread, misreading people on purpose, moving the goalpost every time you get cornered, is what actually proves this was never a genuine conversation for you, it's trolling or an ego boost dressed as debate.
You also been ignoring the whole time that there's actual practitioners in this thread, people in real magical orders, real traditions, real paradigms, not just theorists. I'm a member of Fraternitas Saturni and a Candomblé priest myself. So drop the "you never practiced" line, it was never true.
Just discussed on the topic if you have not answer simply being silent is better than criticism only saying you are not correct in long paragraph can not be answer if you have answer just write to me based on your real thinking.
Your practice chaos, your answer chaos, your discussion chaos, so what give reasonable answer
Sometime in debate theory alone can not make the debate full so if your theory is real show against me practically and aslo i show you my rule magic practically against you then let me show who will itch his ass this idea is better than laughing
I'm not engaged in a debate with you, I've just made a couple of comments. It was clear from the beginning that this wasn't going to go very far. Your "rule magic" as you're calling it is simply basic, beginner level information, drawn from sources like Agrippa. You are entirely failing to grasp some of the other basic and beginner level information which Agrippa and most other sources discuss. Belief/Faith is a key component of how all of this works. It would seem that English is not your first language, so I understand if you misinterpret the scope of some of these words and concepts. But when people are trying to present clear explanations to you, it seems your ego wont allow you to give these things a second thought. Making this whole discussion pointless.
You trying to call back to my comment earlier about the circle vs the armchair is hilarious to me. This isn't some magical dick measuring contest of experience. But for the record I've been practicing for 20+ years, and was very active on another now-dead forum that was a lot less tolerant towards newbies than this one. Just because the users you're talking to on here may not have lots of posts that doesn't tell you anything about their experience. But many of us can gauge the level of someone's experience and understanding based on the content of their posts. You should try to be less hostile and more open to discussion, rather than trying to present your beliefs as fact.
Sidenote, all of these systems of correspondence and classification are arbitrary. Just because some ancient scholars believed the universe was composed of the 4 classical elements, that does not make it so (in fact, we now know this is very far from reality.)
I dont think it is that far from 'reality ' (whatever that is ) . I am not defending this spiritual quack ... I mean spiritual doctor though ... but in the spirit of post 30 ;
I am into Neo-hermetics . That means I have studied heremetics and science for decades and seek to find correlations . In many cases there are valid ones but they are masked by the restricted terms of the past ... and frankly some of the terms and ideas physics comes up with now ! Most are even more wack than the ancients thought up .
Not only can we see how everything fits into the four element theory we can see how one element generates another , in principle , within its correlations in the human psyche and thought / creation process ; fire - inspiration , brain, nervous system . Water - feelings emotions intuitions unconscious . Air - mind mentation and 'rational facilities'. Earth ; body work materila output .
or process ; we get inspired with a concept, we see how we feel about it ( maybe even 'sleep on it' , which is running it through the unconscious ) , next we think it through, make a plan and lastly we do it , pit it into action .
Now we have the 4 Universal forces thats all there is ; the weak force, the strong force, electro-magnetism and gravity . We can easily correlate the four elements to those . But what for ? Whats the point in all this ? Well, consider this ; with this idea of one 'element' generating the other ( not a some wild idea , I have cross referenced all this , just one example of the process is in CH 42 of the Tao te Ching { I site that as this form is 'bare bones' of the process , most forms describe the process after it has taken a form or a metaphore } )
So the first three 'forces' for convenience terming them fire water and air 'give the resultant ' 'earth' . All manifestations seem to some from an ideal ( ie not real ) arrangement of three primal energies creating a forth 'manifesting principle ' ( think of the Supernal triad in kabalah , above the 'abyss' in the 'ideal' world .
Now science has always wanted unify these three fundamental forces of physics ... but it cant , it remains a problem they do not understand . Why ? because they see these four forces as sorta being all there at the same time , all 'came into creation ' at once . But hermetically and metaphisically that has necer been the case . They are not going to 'unify the field' becasue the fouth principle ( earth element and fundament al force 'g' - gravity ) are th e results of the first three .
A crazy waffle ? I dont think so . We may be on the verge of 'cracking it ' ;
- this is just one small part of the much larger study of neo-hermetics . Its not so much the old wisdom was unwise , but it has been mostly misinterpreted by the then cultural clothing being taken literally . We might find we suffer the same at the hands of those in the future ; '' Ha ! Those dumb old 21st century guys ... they thought a sub atomic particle could have 'charm' and 'flavor'
In particle physics, flavor is an intrinsic quantum property that distinguishes different types of elementary particles, such as quarks and leptons. [
] Charm is one of those specific flavors of quarks—along with up, down, strange, top, and bottom—adding a playful, whimsical naming convention to the serious science of the
Same with the rest of your "rules." And if we're to assume that tables of correspondence are the secret formula for real magic, then the question is which ones? Because there are dozens of famous ones, and hundreds if not thousands of lesser known ones, and most of them contradict each other. And that's not to mention, we're only talking about western/european esoteric traditions here, what about the rest of the world?
It sounds like you're trying to work out the perfect universal system for yourself, and I think that's great. I think that's what we all do. But I don't assume my philosophy and working model is universal, even if it's right for me, and neither should you. Just because you can't get meaningful real world results from scribbling on a dirty napkin in a truck stop then flushing it down the toilet, doesn't mean that someone else can't. You can have your magical philosophy of purity, and someone else could disregard everything entirely, put not thought into how or why things work, and just Will something into reality. These can be equally valid approaches, it just depends on the person. Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
I dont think it is that far from 'reality ' (whatever that is ) . I am not defending this spiritual quack ... I mean spiritual doctor though ... but in the spirit of post 30 ;
It's an interesting line of thinking for sure. I've always associated the 4 classical elements with the 4 phases of matter (air/gas, fire/plasma, water/liquid, earth/solid), but I can see arguments made for association with the 4 forces, it's just less obvious how they would line up. I definitely think you're onto something worth exploring. Even moreso, I could see THIS as a worthy direction to take one's personal working model. My comment was mainly directed towards the idea of taking these things at face value as some sort of absolute truth.
I find a lot of these correspondences useful as a way to describe and categorize things, but outside of their use for us it's hard to find them objectively meaningful. They were an important stepping stone on the path towards the development of modern science, but I don't think they can fully encompass our modern understanding of the universe. They might have always been closer than we usually give them credit for, but the information is scattered and incomplete.
The Chinese system of 5 elements for example is completely unrelated to the western 4 elements, and it provides a much cleaner explanation of elemental forces producing and opposing one another. It could be argued that it fits more neatly with some aspects of physical science as well. I don't think that means we should consider one or the other more true or better even; they are entirely different, and in the grand scheme of things I think all of our systems of classification are limited by our subjective human experiences, and are therefore inherently flawed. Still that doesn't make them any less useable or 'real'.
I see no conflict with say starting from a position where you're dealing with intense grief, projecting into the sephirot Binah to help find a deeper understanding of the grief, performing a ritual centered on elemental water and directing undines to help dissolve the negative emotion, and finally performing chinese internal alchemy to move the water(emotion) into wood(growth) through an action like creating a painting inspired by what's happened in your life. These are 3 entirely unrelated (ignoring the GD) systems, each playing by their own independent set of "magic rules," but they are all effective.
Idk, I don't have a strong argument to make for one system over another here. The only point I think is important is that anyone in their right mind realizes that none of us know how all this works, and that's perfectly fine as far as practical application is concerned. For one to claim that ritual purity is a requirement for some specific act, that person should be able to explain what that means and why it is required. I think very good arguments can be made for and against that idea. All but one of us are aware that a reasonable explaination is not simply "because that's the rules." Unfortunately, we don't get to have the good version of this debate this time around.
Thanks for the food for thought Firetree, now I'll be busy for the rest of the night down a physics rabbit hole lol.
Warned: do not threaten people about making their ass itch
After this i will reply for you practically then you will understand what true magic mean when you get assache then let me see the theory and logic of those 3 chaosian heal this ache
After this i will reply for you practically then you will understand what true magic mean when you get assache then let me see the theory and logic of those 3 chaosian heal this ache
I don’t know about the rules of magick, but what I do know is that the rules of WF don’t allow you to threaten anyone with an ass itch, ass ache, dysentery, hemorrhoids or whatever other anal affliction you typically enjoy on your own time.
. Dude need some rest.
