Magick, humanity and its "limitations"

[whimsicalwarlock]

I'm not an expert at all when it comes to magick and I am also not particularly eloquent so I will do my best to make my point so here goes,

In magick there seems to almost always be this sort of template thats in place that you have to follow, like theres always some "higher" form of dogma or rules to follow. when it comes to spirits, gods, etc, there's always this idea that the human always knows lesser than and anything in the spiritual world knows more than and you're always "lesser" than something.

Even on the left hand path, which seems to preach self empowerment and self liberation and such, theres still always this being "above" you that you have to learn from, this being possibly not being one who actually cares about humans or puts humans first, its always about bringing spiritual aspects of the god/goddess/spirit to the world, but when it comes to the basic human self its always coming across as being presented as flawed or inferior, hence the reason for the magickal work in the first place. I find this somewhat...brainwashing? or indoctrinating? There seems to be this pretense that you almost are required to accept that you are unrefined or flawed or in a state of imperfection.

Maybe this is just my own upbringing and perspective being brought up to me so I can deal with or deconstruct it, I don't know for sure.

Maybe I'm not making my point very well but its like in order to "gain" something, don't you first have to believe you don't have it to begin with? In order to get "better" don't you have to first believe you aren't good enough?

Its feeling sort of...imposing almost. Like theres an inherent flaw in most magickal systems, but I do acknowledge that perhaps I'm just looking at this from a flawed standpoint.

Am I making any sense at all?

I appreciate any insight or discussion on this.

 

[Beyond Everything]

In magick there seems to almost always be this sort of template thats in place that you have to follow, like theres always some "higher" form of dogma or rules to follow. when it comes to spirits, gods, etc, there's always this idea that the human always knows lesser than and anything in the spiritual world knows more than and you're always "lesser" than something.

Even on the left hand path, which seems to preach self empowerment and self liberation and such, theres still always this being "above" you that you have to learn from, this being possibly not being one who actually cares about humans or puts humans first, its always about bringing spiritual aspects of the god/goddess/spirit to the world, but when it comes to the basic human self its always coming across as being presented as flawed or inferior, hence the reason for the magickal work in the first place. I find this somewhat...brainwashing? or indoctrinating? There seems to be this pretense that you almost are required to accept that you are unrefined or flawed or in a state of imperfection.

A lot of religion and occultism involves egregores, which seek their own survival and expansion regardless of whether this is ultimately beneficial for humans.

Then there are actual forces out there which have a vested interest in preventing humans from evolving into higher beings. Keeping deep levels of subserviance in the human primate is paramount to them.

Obviously there is some overlap between the two in practice.

In my view religion shouldn't have anything to do with occult development. Yet you have occultists quoting their preferred religious texts as if those are 'authorities' and not dogmatic forms of control.

One of most important things in development is rooting out and extirpating all forms of subserviance and dependence. This isn't meant in some Ayn Rand way, but has to do with reclaiming very deep aspects of one's self. This has nothing to do with 'doing one's true will' or performing the bornless ritual or soaking in egregoric energies while declaring one's self a living god. A lot of this is uncharted, and for good reason, ie see above.

 

[whimsicalwarlock]

A lot of religion and occultism involves egregores, which seek their own survival and expansion regardless of whether this is ultimately beneficial for humans.

Then there are actual forces out there which have a vested interest in preventing humans from evolving into higher beings. Keeping deep levels of subserviance in the human primate is paramount to them.

Obviously there is some overlap between the two in practice.

In my view religion shouldn't have anything to do with occult development. Yet you have occultists quoting their preferred religious texts as if those are 'authorities' and not dogmatic forms of control.

One of most important things in development is rooting out and extirpating all forms of subserviance and dependence. This isn't meant in some Ayn Rand way, but has to do with reclaiming very deep aspects of one's self. This has nothing to do with 'doing one's true will' or performing the bornless ritual or soaking in egregoric energies while declaring one's self a living god. A lot of this is uncharted, and for good reason, ie see above.

I definitely agree that there's a lot of theoretical "mud" to "wade" through.
What have you found to be reliable and truly liberating or empowering? It seems like there is SO much out there masquerading as helpful or beneficial when "it" really just wants to use you as fuel or support to prop itself up. Its kind of overwhelming and very discouraging as it seems like the more you look the more you find. Its like there's actually so little out there that's truly helpful.

Chaos magick looks like it could be used to find one's way but its so unorthodox and there doesn't seem to be a defined way of doing it and the lack of reliable framework makes it feel very difficult to actually navigate successfully.
I appreciate your response.

 

[Firetree]

I'm not an expert at all when it comes to magick and I am also not particularly eloquent so I will do my best to make my point so here goes,

In magick there seems to almost always be this sort of template thats in place that you have to follow, like theres always some "higher" form of dogma or rules to follow. when it comes to spirits, gods, etc, there's always this idea that the human always knows lesser than and anything in the spiritual world knows more than and you're always "lesser" than something.

'Heavens' no ! Man has always been in the midpoint in the spiritual hierarchy ...'Great Chain of Being'

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around 'Man' insert spirits ; above but 'attached' invocation / theurgy . Below but 'attached' evocation / thaumaturgy .

Even on the left hand path, which seems to preach self empowerment and self liberation and such, theres still always this being "above" you that you have to learn from, this being possibly not being one who actually cares about humans or puts humans first, its always about bringing spiritual aspects of the god/goddess/spirit to the world, but when it comes to the basic human self its always coming across as being presented as flawed or inferior, hence the reason for the magickal work in the first place.

I contend that the spirit is not naturally flawed , but it can be influenced or clouded by conditioning and environment (ie incarnation process ) .

I find this somewhat...brainwashing? or indoctrinating? There seems to be this pretense that you almost are required to accept that you are unrefined or flawed or in a state of imperfection.

WEll, yes, somewhat .... unless you are .... 'beyond everything '

Maybe this is just my own upbringing and perspective being brought up to me so I can deal with or deconstruct it, I don't know for sure.

Maybe I'm not making my point very well but its like in order to "gain" something, don't you first have to believe you don't have it to begin with?

No as you can gain further understanding of what you are > leads to knowledge > (should ) lead to understanding ( knowing the implications and effects of your enacted knowledge > leads to wisdom ( knowing when and who and where to apply your knowledge with Understanding of results ) ( ... Hooray ! You just crossed the Abyss ! )

In order to get "better" don't you have to first believe you aren't good enough?

You can be 'good enough ' or you can 'get better ' ( from thinking you are good enough ) .

Good enough housing : keeps rain and weather off you and supplies water, air and waste disposal .

better ; designed to bring 'happiness' ; open spaces , exercise areas , kids playground, parks, hospital clinic etc .

Its feeling sort of...imposing almost. Like theres an inherent flaw in most magickal systems, but I do acknowledge that perhaps I'm just looking at this from a flawed standpoint.

Am I making any sense at all?

Yes . My view on it is ; every person has a field of limitation whose boundary that can not be crossed . However that boundary may be further out than you realize .... one 'failing ' , the other failing is thinking you can go beyond your actual boundary .

I appreciate any insight or discussion on this.

I hope this was insightful .

 

[Ohana]

Chaos magick looks like it could be used to find one's way but its so unorthodox and there doesn't seem to be a defined way of doing it and the lack of reliable framework makes it feel very difficult to actually navigate successfully.
I appreciate your response.

Stories could be another way. Don't have to believe in the deities but the actual stories could help.

Or whichever framework helps you understand the world most. Chaos Magick I think relies on sciencetific reasoning.

But could think about stories or what you like doing. Like if say you like making pottery could veiw it through making pottery and make a metaphor about using pottery as the framework to magic. Atleast thats what I think.

Could be wrong.

 

[Morell]

I'm not an expert at all when it comes to magick and I am also not particularly eloquent so I will do my best to make my point so here goes,

In magick there seems to almost always be this sort of template thats in place that you have to follow, like theres always some "higher" form of dogma or rules to follow. when it comes to spirits, gods, etc, there's always this idea that the human always knows lesser than and anything in the spiritual world knows more than and you're always "lesser" than something.

Even on the left hand path, which seems to preach self empowerment and self liberation and such, theres still always this being "above" you that you have to learn from, this being possibly not being one who actually cares about humans or puts humans first, its always about bringing spiritual aspects of the god/goddess/spirit to the world, but when it comes to the basic human self its always coming across as being presented as flawed or inferior, hence the reason for the magickal work in the first place. I find this somewhat...brainwashing? or indoctrinating? There seems to be this pretense that you almost are required to accept that you are unrefined or flawed or in a state of imperfection.

Maybe this is just my own upbringing and perspective being brought up to me so I can deal with or deconstruct it, I don't know for sure.

Maybe I'm not making my point very well but its like in order to "gain" something, don't you first have to believe you don't have it to begin with? In order to get "better" don't you have to first believe you aren't good enough?

Its feeling sort of...imposing almost. Like theres an inherent flaw in most magickal systems, but I do acknowledge that perhaps I'm just looking at this from a flawed standpoint.

Am I making any sense at all?

I appreciate any insight or discussion on this.

Good topic.

This mindset was created by Abrahamic religions with their "god always bigger" mentality. Also greatly supported by Roman Empire Christianity, where God's superiority was forced to become unquestionable as well as god's representation by pope to ensure control of masses.

So no, it's not only you, but it is control mechanism, to think that spirits are greater, smarter etc, than us. But... yeah, that cursed word... But we don't know that much about spiritual stuff, definitely way less than spirits. Sure, you can keep going trial and error until you learn everything on your own, but it is simply way more effective to learn from spirits, who know, even if it is with intention to develop your own knowledge, power and independence on the LHP.

That is why, even if we are all equal, we do call for spirits to learn from them. Because there are things to learn. Just like you learn from humans who mastered some skill.

 

[whimsicalwarlock]

Good topic.

This mindset was created by Abrahamic religions with their "god always bigger" mentality. Also greatly supported by Roman Empire Christianity, where God's superiority was forced to become unquestionable as well as god's representation by pope to ensure control of masses.

So no, it's not only you, but it is control mechanism, to think that spirits are greater, smarter etc, than us. But... yeah, that cursed word... But we don't know that much about spiritual stuff, definitely way less than spirits. Sure, you can keep going trial and error until you learn everything on your own, but it is simply way more effective to learn from spirits, who know, even if it is with intention to develop your own knowledge, power and independence on the LHP.

That is why, even if we are all equal, we do call for spirits to learn from them. Because there are things to learn. Just like you learn from humans who mastered some skill.

I've seen far too often the same issue among those who practice both paths, and among both seems to be the same issue; Depending on a spirit that has us on our knees, though the reasons for being so are different, it still presents the same problem, being on your knees in the first place.

Is there any path that doesn't require this? I imagine there is but I also imagine they're full of trial and error. Maybe there isn't. Maybe due to our nature we can't avoid it. I found it rather strange as I tried to dig through left and right hand paths to find both having practitioners subservient or submissive to a higher force; I kept running into the same question;

What about our divinity? What about our power?

It brought up other questions too, questions that made me uncomfortable. Are we unable to avoid this? Are we doomed to being "lesser"? Do we have no choice but to serve? As tacky or corny as it might be, it made me think of the "Gorr The God Butcher" character in the Thor: Love and Thunder movie, before he acquired the necrosword. The way he was emaciated, nearly dying of thirst, on his knees begging a fat overfed god that looked down on him as replaceable fodder, calling his and his daughters suffering insignificant because "there are always more followers/worshippers". It leaves a pit in my stomach to think we could be seen that way.

I suppose there's a possibility that it's unavoidable to go asking for external forces to influence our path, if that's the case then the questions arise,
1)How do we know to trust what we've been given?

and if we do determine that we can trust what we are given,

2)when and how do we determine that we are no longer needing the assistance of external forces?

 

[Morell]

You know, I have yet to find a good school, where teacher would obey instructions of student.

 

[whimsicalwarlock]

You know, I have yet to find a good school, where teacher would obey instructions of student.

I'm not sure of your meaning.

 

[Morell]

I'm not sure of your meaning.

Fair. I might have say way too little.

My point is that when we learn from someone, it seems to me to be natural tendency to put teacher on pedestal. Gurus of new age are quite an example of that. So learning can turn into worship, however it's not easy to learn other way than by learning from the teacher or by following and accepting his "rules" for a time to get what you need to get.

To your other question, if it is possible to fully evade worship... in this world it is very hard. Worship evolves naturaly. Someone said that fandoms (fans admiring fictional character or celebrity) are religions too and they are correct. It seems to be in our nature to form religious behavior.

To seek and pay proper attention to what is within us and to develop our independence is hard, but possible. However we do not live alone here and this society has some sort of hierarchy as well as struggles for power.