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So, recently, a few pieces of information about the 13th Zodiac sign have emerged; however, another one came across: the 13th Month. Does anyone know anything about the 13th Month, and is there any model for how this calendar works? And is each month associated with a zodiac sign? Or is the division made in another way? I also heard the Mayan calendar used to also follow this concept of 13th Months, but I cannot verify since it is not an area I have studied much, although I know in different cultures and pagan practices other methods were used to define your birthday...
Which reminds me, from those who dwell more in astrology, do you use this method, or do you use the 12th Zodiac system? What makes you pick one over the other, and what reason do you have for not using the other? Is it a personal preference, or is it due to your clients? This is all out of curiosity and from an academic standpoint, because I do not wish to condemn either one of the methods.
The zodiac was split into 12 signs of 30 degrees because both are very easy numbers in division (12 is divided by 2/3/4/6, 30 is divided by 2/3/4/5/6/10/15), the very same reason why the hours of the day are 12+12 (easy to split in smaller segments), and hours are made of 60 minutes (60 is a gorgeous number to divide, I love it).
So, the 12 signs got paired with the closest constellation, even if they were of VERY different dimension (Capricorn is the tiniest, and Libra and Scorpio gave back and forth a few stars, so they shifted dimensions a lot).
13 signs do not make sense, simply because it isn't how the Babylonian zodiac was created. Even if the constellations and their stars move (and they absolutely do, it's a thing they knew even then), the Tropical Zodiac keeps its construction: the Point of Aries is the beginning of the Zodiac, and it is positioned by the Vernal Equinox.
(The Indian zodiac does not work the same way, and moves with the constellations. That is the Sidereal zodiac).
Ophiuchus is not a Zodiac Sign, never was, and never was supposed to be.
... The problem of the 13th month actually is: unfortunately for the Babylonians, the year is not easy and perfect and made of 360 days and 12 lunations. Each year has 12 lunations and a bit left over, which adds year after year, and then you get 13 moons in a year (usually it's one every four, for both 13 full moons and 13 new moons. Much like summer and winter Olympics: year 1 nothing, year 2 13 new moons, year 3 nothing, year 4 13 full moons).
So, lunar based calendars have two options:
A) intercalary month. Usually based on the vernal equinox, if they get too far from it another month is added somewhere, usually at the end (if I remember correctly, both Hebrew and Chinese calendar work this way)
B) accept it. The lunar months are 12, and move back every (solar) year (again if I remember correctly, the Islamic calendar works this way. This is why Ramadan gets early in the year every time)
Since I use western (a truly misleading term) Astrology, I use the Tropical Zodiac.
Or is the division made in another way? I also heard the Mayan calendar used to also follow this concept of 13th Months, but I cannot verify since it is not an area I have studied much, although I know in different cultures and pagan practices other methods were used to define your birthday...
Which reminds me, from those who dwell more in astrology, do you use this method, or do you use the 12th Zodiac system? What makes you pick one over the other, and what reason do you have for not using the other?
Is it a personal preference, or is it due to your clients? This is all out of curiosity and from an academic standpoint, because I do not wish to condemn either one of the methods.
In any case they changed the constellations as well ; cut off Scorpion's claws they did and gave it over to Libra ; making Scorpius tiny (like the '13th' constellation ) and Libra huge .
The matter is quite simple. The constellations of zodiac change across time, and also don't divide it in equal parts. Since the rather arbitrary division in 12 zodiac signs was created the sky has changed drastically, and now there are 13 constellations, none of which align with the traditional signs save few days of the year.
I also use the Tropical zodiac, although I'm familiar with the Sidereal one and years ago (late 70s) I worked with Vedic harmonic charts. Western astrology is a symbolic system and the signs have nothing in common with the constellations except their names and sequence in the celestial order. The flap over Ophiuchus that arose a few years ago was just a lot of hot air from non-astrologers who thought they found a smoking gun to disrupt the system. I don't do much with Lunar astrology so I don't have an opinion on the significance of the 13th Full Moon beyond a casual interest in why and when it occurs. I've been pursuing classical astrology for the last ten years so I may yet do more with it.
No serious astrologer uses Ophiuchus. Its existence as "the 13th sign" is purely rotating fluff piece for slow news days.
Thirteen months is a lunar calendar. 28 times 13 equals 364. Every year, the moon fills thirteen times. This isn't really a usable calendar in the modern world, yes, it was used historically, but the whole world is operating pretty successfully with a solar calendar so you'll be stuck using that for most things even if you try to shoehorn a lunar calendar into your life.
That being said, you can still work with the cycle of the moon without changing what calendar you use. Most modern calendars, paper or digital, include the phases of the moon on them. Personally, I start workings dedicated to new purposes or cleansing within the 72 hour range of the new moon, and I do workings related to abundance near the full moon.
There are "native american calendars" that circulate with names like "wolf moon" assigned to each moon of the year, but I'm skeptical of their accuracy to any real tradition.
I see a few people in this thread talking about the thirteenth sign as though it's a real thing. My challenge to any of these people is to draw an actual horoscope using the thirteenth sign. Show me a chart, any chart, that uses this hypothetical wheel.
Well, as I stated, this is all purely out of curiosity. Personally, I prefer to work with the 12 Zodiac Signs, although a few interesting topics and pieces of information were shared in this post, which I may further study and investigate. I think the first time I heard about the Ophiuchus constellation was a decade ago, due to a Japanese game inspired in the zodiac signs, like nowadays, when I come across some new information, I began to dig for information on this, yet, even back then the concept did not made sense for me, neither when years laters the media began speaking about the 13th Zodiac sign... As the test of time has proven, such a concept and idea did not stick around. However, back then I had never heard of a 13th lunar cycle, which drew my curiosity again to this topic.
Nevertheless, I was curious if anyone had ever adopted this system, but as I can see, the majority rule out and did not connect with this concept. Although I agree to disagree with the mathematical argument, since I am certain that if it were a common desire to follow this principle, then I am sure someone would find a formula to make sense of it, I mean, Europe spent centuries believing that Earth was the center of the universe until Copernicus and Galileo brought a formula that proved the Sun was the center of our universe. Personally, I believe one of the reasons why the change and method were never adopted nowadays is due to superstition and human fear of exploring unknown charts... Which brings me to my original question: this question and discussion I opened was simply out of curiosity to see a different perspective on a familiar topic. Like in Fine Arts, now and then, it is good to see things from a different angle; it may not change your methods, but may fuel a new idea or a new reading of your work.
Well, as I stated, this is all purely out of curiosity. Personally, I prefer to work with the 12 Zodiac Signs, although a few interesting topics and pieces of information were shared in this post, which I may further study and investigate. I think the first time I heard about the Ophiuchus constellation was a decade ago, due to a Japanese game inspired in the zodiac signs, like nowadays, when I come across some new information, I began to dig for information on this, yet, even back then the concept did not made sense for me, neither when years laters the media began speaking about the 13th Zodiac sign... As the test of time has proven, such a concept and idea did not stick around. However, back then I had never heard of a 13th lunar cycle, which drew my curiosity again to this topic.
Nevertheless, I was curious if anyone had ever adopted this system, but as I can see, the majority rule out and did not connect with this concept. Although I agree to disagree with the mathematical argument, since I am certain that if it were a common desire to follow this principle, then I am sure someone would find a formula to make sense of it, I mean, Europe spent centuries believing that Earth was the center of the universe until Copernicus and Galileo brought a formula that proved the Sun was the center of our universe. Personally, I believe one of the reasons why the change and method were never adopted nowadays is due to superstition and human fear of exploring unknown charts... Which brings me to my original question: this question and discussion I opened was simply out of curiosity to see a different perspective on a familiar topic. Like in Fine Arts, now and then, it is good to see things from a different angle; it may not change your methods, but may fuel a new idea or a new reading of your work.
They certainly tried to make sense of a motley assortment of asteroids that astrologer Rob Hand once grumbled are only "traveling gravel." I don't use those either.
The matter is quite simple. The constellations of zodiac change across time, and also don't divide it in equal parts. Since the rather arbitrary division in 12 zodiac signs was created the sky has changed drastically,
Now ? There have been 13 constellations on the ecliptic since 1922 ... and there were also 13 before 500 bc when the Babylonians changed it to 12 . But you are right in the non alignment , that they signs and constellations no longer align , and its still moving at the rate of 50.3 arcseconds a year .
Well, as I stated, this is all purely out of curiosity. Personally, I prefer to work with the 12 Zodiac Signs, although a few interesting topics and pieces of information were shared in this post, which I may further study and investigate. I think the first time I heard about the Ophiuchus constellation was a decade ago, due to a Japanese game inspired in the zodiac signs, like nowadays, when I come across some new information, I began to dig for information on this, yet, even back then the concept did not made sense for me, neither when years laters the media began speaking about the 13th Zodiac sign... As the test of time has proven, such a concept and idea did not stick around. However, back then I had never heard of a 13th lunar cycle, which drew my curiosity again to this topic.
Nevertheless, I was curious if anyone had ever adopted this system, but as I can see, the majority rule out and did not connect with this concept. Although I agree to disagree with the mathematical argument, since I am certain that if it were a common desire to follow this principle, then I am sure someone would find a formula to make sense of it, I mean, Europe spent centuries believing that Earth was the center of the universe until Copernicus and Galileo brought a formula that proved the Sun was the center of our universe. Personally, I believe one of the reasons why the change and method were never adopted nowadays is due to superstition and human fear of exploring unknown charts... Which brings me to my original question: this question and discussion I opened was simply out of curiosity to see a different perspective on a familiar topic. Like in Fine Arts, now and then, it is good to see things from a different angle; it may not change your methods, but may fuel a new idea or a new reading of your work.
12 ; you can easily divide it half , by 3s and by 4s also each sign is in one of 4 elements and one of three modes .
3:4 is a universal principle , it relates to manifestation ... and I dont mean that vaguely, it can be demonstrated across the board by many principles including maths . Its also the old way of finger counting - look at the structure of your fingers , 3:4 , on one land 12 , 1 dozen and by lots of 12 (base 12 , as some used ) going onto the other hand we get a 'gross' = 144 .
Now, do all that with 13 .
what is a half, a third , a quarter , of 13 ... show me 13 in nature , on your body ... besides , its unlucky
So, recently, a few pieces of information about the 13th Zodiac sign have emerged; however, another one came across: the 13th Month. Does anyone know anything about the 13th Month, and is there any model for how this calendar works? And is each month associated with a zodiac sign? Or is the division made in another way? I also heard the Mayan calendar used to also follow this concept of 13th Months, but I cannot verify since it is not an area I have studied much, although I know in different cultures and pagan practices other methods were used to define your birthday...
Which reminds me, from those who dwell more in astrology, do you use this method, or do you use the 12th Zodiac system? What makes you pick one over the other, and what reason do you have for not using the other? Is it a personal preference, or is it due to your clients? This is all out of curiosity and from an academic standpoint, because I do not wish to condemn either one of the methods.
I was recently asked this system. So as another user pointed out breaking it into 13 messes up the technical aspects of astrology which come down to ratios and geometry. But this doesn't mean Ophiucus doesn't have an effect. The ancient astrologers believed that the fixed stars themselves cast down things called "stellar rays" which when the planet passes through sends their occult virtues to the planet which then passes it down to earth. In advanced astrology most visible stars have occult virtues assigned to them and every degree of the rotation has different effects. This is what it means when a planet is in Aries for example. It means it is passing in front of a cluster of stars that carry virtues that align with Aries. So the cluster of stars of Ophiucus DO have occult virtues to them and will send effects down, but creating the division is arbitrary because the zodiac signs aren't communicating an entire block of space. Its just communicating the effects the stars in that space will have. So there's no need to break up the ratios and geometries that tell us how these different stars relate to each other but we can still recognize the effects the stars that make up Ophiucus have when the planets pass in front of them.
I was recently asked this system. So as another user pointed out breaking it into 13 messes up the technical aspects of astrology which come down to ratios and geometry. But this doesn't mean Ophiucus doesn't have an effect. The ancient astrologers believed that the fixed stars themselves cast down things called "stellar rays" which when the planet passes through sends their occult virtues to the planet which then passes it down to earth. In advanced astrology most visible stars have occult virtues assigned to them and every degree of the rotation has different effects. This is what it means when a planet is in Aries for example. It means it is passing in front of a cluster of stars that carry virtues that align with Aries. So the cluster of stars of Ophiucus DO have occult virtues to them and will send effects down, but creating the division is arbitrary because the zodiac signs aren't communicating an entire block of space. Its just communicating the effects the stars in that space will have. So there's no need to break up the ratios and geometries that tell us how these different stars relate to each other but we can still recognize the effects the stars that make up Ophiucus have when the planets pass in front of them.
I was recently asked this system. So as another user pointed out breaking it into 13 messes up the technical aspects of astrology which come down to ratios and geometry. But this doesn't mean Ophiucus doesn't have an effect. The ancient astrologers believed that the fixed stars themselves cast down things called "stellar rays" which when the planet passes through sends their occult virtues to the planet which then passes it down to earth. In advanced astrology most visible stars have occult virtues assigned to them and every degree of the rotation has different effects. This is what it means when a planet is in Aries for example. It means it is passing in front of a cluster of stars that carry virtues that align with Aries. So the cluster of stars of Ophiucus DO have occult virtues to them and will send effects down, but creating the division is arbitrary because the zodiac signs aren't communicating an entire block of space. Its just communicating the effects the stars in that space will have. So there's no need to break up the ratios and geometries that tell us how these different stars relate to each other but we can still recognize the effects the stars that make up Ophiucus have when the planets pass in front of them.
So... In terms of the zodiac, Ophiuchus does not fit the wheel; however, as a constellation, it still influences the planetary energy when a celestial body cross their axis? Interesting... Does this apply as well to other constellations that are not part of the twelve zodiac signs? Or is it exclusive to this constellation? But if that is the case, then astrology is far more complex than I thought. If even constellations have energetic influence on planetary bodies, then that opens up quite an enormous variations on a astral chart reading... I am both astonished and overwhelmed with this concept; it makes me feel an academic respect for those who are devoted to astrology.
So... In terms of the zodiac, Ophiuchus does not fit the wheel; however, as a constellation, it still influences the planetary energy when a celestial body cross their axis? Interesting... Does this apply as well to other constellations that are not part of the twelve zodiac signs? Or is it exclusive to this constellation? But if that is the case, then astrology is far more complex than I thought. If even constellations have energetic influence on planetary bodies, then that opens up quite an enormous variations on a astral chart reading... I am both astonished and overwhelmed with this concept; it makes me feel an academic respect for those who are devoted to astrology.
Yes it applies to other constellations/minor constellations as well. You can look into fixed star talismans to learn about them. Fixed star talismans work with things known as indicator stars and minor constellations and they utilize this principle. Every star has its own powers, virtues, and spirits associated with it. A lot of Indian and Arabic astrology deals with this but really technical Western astrologers do too. Astrology is definitely a discipline you can never reach the bottom of, but starting with the basics will be accurate enough to make predictions, cast elections, and conjure spirits. 10 years will fly by in no time and it wont be as intimidating. Its like playing music in that respect. You just keep exploring it and learning new things.
I was recently asked this system. So as another user pointed out breaking it into 13 messes up the technical aspects of astrology which come down to ratios and geometry. But this doesn't mean Ophiucus doesn't have an effect. The ancient astrologers believed that the fixed stars themselves cast down things called "stellar rays" which when the planet passes through sends their occult virtues to the planet which then passes it down to earth. In advanced astrology most visible stars have occult virtues assigned to them and every degree of the rotation has different effects. This is what it means when a planet is in Aries for example. It means it is passing in front of a cluster of stars that carry virtues that align with Aries. So the cluster of stars of Ophiucus DO have occult virtues to them and will send effects down, but creating the division is arbitrary because the zodiac signs aren't communicating an entire block of space. Its just communicating the effects the stars in that space will have. So there's no need to break up the ratios and geometries that tell us how these different stars relate to each other but we can still recognize the effects the stars that make up Ophiucus have when the planets pass in front of them.
Okay , so how do you calculate where an asterism begins or ends ? And what off all the 'void' space between them ? Are you going to decide on a 'half way point ' between asterisms where one asterism energy turns into another ? Then you are back to 'constellational boundaries' .
Also , going by your theory , you might have to include Cetus on occasion for some planets , especially its northern extent at Menkar ( going on the asterism ), it well within the possible 8 degrees 'drift ' off the ecliptic ( the 'band of the ecliptic' - the zone of possible planetary positions ) .
It is possible , just complex . We used it to our advantage during our group's months-long workings with 'Stella Yoga ' . However astrology, particular natal, is most accurately reflected in angular relationships between planets, Another thing to consider is , if you look at the qualities attributed to those fixed stars (in that type of astrology ) you will find their energy 'radiating' is actually a combination of 2 or 3 planetary energies .
So... In terms of the zodiac, Ophiuchus does not fit the wheel; however, as a constellation, it still influences the planetary energy when a celestial body cross their axis? Interesting... Does this apply as well to other constellations that are not part of the twelve zodiac signs? Or is it exclusive to this constellation? But if that is the case, then astrology is far more complex than I thought. If even constellations have energetic influence on planetary bodies, then that opens up quite an enormous variations on a astral chart reading... I am both astonished and overwhelmed with this concept; it makes me feel an academic respect for those who are devoted to astrology.
It applies to all constellations , theoretically. Its actually just a simple extension of the sign concept .... your Venus is in Areas , so therefore .....
I am a bit flummoxed as to why this is astonishing , its the basic current simple understanding of astrology ; people - I am a Cancer ( if they are going sidereal ) means their natal Sun was passing in front of Cancer asterism at birth . I think its the actual aspects and planetary angular relationships that most people don't follow or consider .
We could give a little historical lesson here .... about when the signs and the constellations did line up ( around 300 something I think - better check ..... around 285 CE. ) No problems (if we remove Ophiuchus ). Slowly precession shifted the grid so now we have two types of astrology ; sidereal and tropical .
Sidereal does suppose the modifying influence comes from the asterism , whereas tropical assumes the modifying influence comes from segments of 30 degrees surrounding the earth in void space as measured from the equinoctal point .
Our groups workings were ; sidereal astrology for 'cosmic' , magical and original aspects in the self and tropical astrology used for things like gardening ( as the equinoctal point can be used as a seasonal marker and the years agricultural or hunting and foraging , storing, harvesting , hibernating , etc can be gauged in advance . )
Yes it applies to other constellations/minor constellations as well. You can look into fixed star talismans to learn about them. Fixed star talismans work with things known as indicator stars and minor constellations and they utilize this principle. Every star has its own powers, virtues, and spirits associated with it. A lot of Indian and Arabic astrology deals with this but really technical Western astrologers do too. Astrology is definitely a discipline you can never reach the bottom of, but starting with the basics will be accurate enough to make predictions, cast elections, and conjure spirits. 10 years will fly by in no time and it wont be as intimidating. Its like playing music in that respect. You just keep exploring it and learning new things.
I can see how one could fall into a spiral of knowledge by dedicating oneself to astrology. Not sure if it's my call, but I can see how one can be fascinated when dwelling in this area; there are so many things to take into consideration if you wish to go in depth. Perhaps one day, when I feel less overwhelmed by all this information, I might indulge in studying more of these variations and influences in a chart.
I am a bit flummoxed as to why this is astonishing , its the basic current simple understanding of astrology ; people - I am a Cancer ( if they are going sidereal ) means their natal Sun was passing in front of Cancer asterism at birth . I think its the actual aspects and planetary angular relationships that most people don't follow or consider .
What I find astonishing in this is not the common-knowledge layer of astrology, but how other elements like constellations, asteroids, dwarf planets, and planetary moons can influence a chart, and that is the part I find fascinating as well as overwhelming. If you consider all this is almost like seeing beyond the veil... And the more I think about it, the more interesting and deep it seems, which makes me wonder if there is even an end? If you begin to consider the impact of everything in the universe, where is the limit? Or is it endless exploration, because if a single constellation has an impact makes me question galaxies' influence, planets outside the Milky Way... This is the way I am astonished by this insight.
Ahhh .... I missed that ( or you left it out previously ) it seemed it was just the constellation aspect - which, as I said , is pretty much or was pretty much the 'signs' .
All that other stuff ... yeah, you can go as far as you want . And indeed the cosmos is VAST .
You might be interested in our Stella Yoga sessions - 'Star Union ' First there are preliminary meditations *
then some calculations ; we 'added' (postulated ) that the nearest fixed star to your natal Sun had special influence (or going old school , one might choose that star nearest ASC ; 0 deg. ) . We had to use star charts and a NASA program to do that . Then all sorts of things were added ; like , where are the four main 'Royal Stars' in relation to that , are any other features there .
(Going of memory here this is years back so ... ) My position was near the border of Gemini and Cancer , it had two major coloures running through it , and a heap of other features ( I cant remember now ) and some signifance with the four constellations around it making a cross .... anyway the idea was to find out as much as you could about 'Your star ' and then do trance work and travel to it .
This is an image from Stellarium of the ecliptic of date that shows one way of how I've modeled it for myself.
Keeping with the zodiac as the constellations that intersect the ecliptic. The signs are in elemental colours with Oph coloured purple.
The "mo(o)nth" of Scorpio is shortened by a decan which is attributed to Oph.
This is a way of mapping the sky for correspondences to celestial relationships for astral magick. Astral in the traditional stellar sense of alignment to the stars. Which makes using astrology that doesn't align with the stars, as in the Tropical system, useless at best.
With an evenly divided ecliptic of 12 signs Oph/Sco are considered one constellation with the victory of Ophiuchus over the defilements of Scorpio and the rebirth of the sun at the center solstice.
It's referred to as the center solstice for the galactic center(Sgr A*) near the purple X. with the other called anti-center solstice. To get away from hemisphere specific winter and summer and make new attributions in a global context.
In the early evening it's currently possible to observe Ophiuchus and Scorpio.
