[Opinion] Optimist or Pessimist: Which are You?

[stalkinghyena]

So lately I have been strolling through the weeds of Western Philosophy as a sort of supplement to my occult studies, a review of ideas that fascinate me in youth, and also as a kind of entertainment. A lot of this I can do thanks to all those free audio books on LibriVox. As I absorb and compare to my past experience with these philosophies, I am a reminded of general trend historical towards Pessimism. This applies to Eastern Philosophy as well. But I am familiar with schools of thought that deny there is any real Evil to be contended with in the world, and all you have to do is think happy thoughts and you will live a wonderful life.

Now, Pessimism is usually thought of as a negative world view - everything is doomed to turned to crap. In philosophy, though, it can have a constructive effect in that makes us look hard at ourselves, our world and being. "Know thyself", that old maxim, was not meant for people who see the world as a rose garden. Pessimism can also unify spirituality with more mundane forms of knowledge, such as we find in the hard sciences, though the viewpoints that come out of this can go in any direction. The same could be said to be true of Optimism, but I think history has proven since the invention of the machine gun that Progress is a little overrated. But back to the usual daily mode of Pessimism - the pessimist is generally a depressive outlook which on the one hand flees from pain, though on the other hand it can embrace pain as revelation of resignation to a world that is cold and meaningless.

Optimism looks naturally preferable, but I think that in its initial phases its can be just simple naivety that has not encountered true misfortune. Still, it seems that even as the world crumbles in its perpetual renewal, it would be nicer to feel happy in spite things. I have met folks that smile and embrace a joyous view of life in spite of the sky falling, but they are rare. I think they have to - the Fool, so to speak, can only dash along the edge of the Abyss if he does not look down.

Optimism would seem to be the polar opposite of Pessimism, but it can be tricky in that Optimism can have a negative side. For example, a "Toxic Optimist" would tell you that all the misfortunes of life boil down to a negative attitude, which attracts negative consequences. To say this cheerfully to a person who boarded a train hopefully expecting a better new life only to be dumped off at a concentration camp would seem a cruelty, I think. The same is true of those suffering from horrible illness - they weren't necessarily thinking bad thoughts when they went to the doctor. I mean, shit happens to people regardless of their attitude, though I think the true, honest optimist would try to make the best of it - which would mean some pessimism would have to be in the character.

Considering the limited presentations of the ideas of above, I ask, are you and Optimist or a Pessimist? I think modifications of polarity are acceptable, this is really not a two sided issue, more a scale of shades. I will say I am a "Guarded Optimist", meaning that I think things will turn out well enough in the end if one has faith, puts in the work and just keeps going in spite of all the crap, but I have to admit to Pessimism in that there is crap and unpleasantness that must be dealt with, and this can be a moody thing. I mean, the world can mess you up! I see it all the time and cannot pretend it is just an attitude problem. But I claim Optimism even as an obligation - trials can be overcome, but the acknowledgement of trial means acknowledgment of Pessimism.

 

[HoldAll]

"If the glass is only half full, the bartender deserves to get fired." (ancient Chinese saying)

 

[KjEno186]

To quote Robert Anton Wilson: "What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."

I have my pessimistic moments, as I am well aware of my own faults. I also came to a conclusion many years ago that the average human animal is capable of more evil than they're willing to admit to. I suppose one could add cynicism to my pessimism.

I used to be more optimistic in my youth. That is, looking back on my misspent years, it's truly amazing how well things went for me at times in spite of my own foolishness. The irony is that I've since learned where the real problems of life come from, and more often than not it's not what we were told.

"...let God be true, but every man a liar..." said the apostle Paul. I'm pretty optimistic that Paul was lying about his god being true. That is, it's one thing to know that any dualistic deity is capable of "good" and "evil," whereas it's quite another to believe the words of a liar like Paul and think that one's preferred and culturally accepted dualistic deity is supreme. I'm quite willing to work with a deity so long as we know we're both capable of the full spectrum, as it were, and thus able to come to an agreement based on that knowledge.

"Don't trust someone further than you can throw them." Thankfully, for my own safety and freedom, I have yet to give anyone the throwing that they may very much deserve. I'm content with simply not believing them no matter how convinced they may be of their own informedness. (I'm convinced that last word should be as valid to use as 'truthiness.')

 

[stalkinghyena]

"If the glass is only half full, the bartender deserves to get fired." (ancient Chinese saying)

Aggressive pessimism, yes. It can go either way but it had better not get in the way. Either a raised glass or a raised fist...

"...let God be true, but every man a liar..." said the apostle Paul. I'm pretty optimistic that Paul was lying about his god being true. That is, it's one thing to know that any dualistic deity is capable of "good" and "evil," whereas it's quite another to believe the words of a liar like Paul and think that one's preferred and culturally accepted dualistic deity is supreme.

Lol, you sound a bit like Spinoza, who I am currently strolling with. Although I don't think he would take Paul as lying so much as expressing an inadequate idea based upon an "imagination" of deity rooted in his culture (the prophets, tradition, etc). That is, for Spinoza, God, being infinite and eternal cannot be expressed dualistically because this would imply a limitation and thus, a contradiction. So one can twist "let God be true" to imply the only Truth (which for Spinoza are the Laws of Nature, which are also Divine Principles), and "every man a liar" meaning that human perception is mistaken and made a lie by tenacious clinging to its inadequate conceptions.
I am familiar with researches that question or even deny Paul wrote most of what was put in the NT. It's also interesting to note that he has had a major influence on historical mysticism, though today he comes off as a salesman.

I'm quite willing to work with a deity so long as we know we're both capable of the full spectrum, as it were, and thus able to come to an agreement based on that knowledge.

I would call that optimistic. Who has the time for moralizing dogmas and blind obedience when there is so much to learn?

I'm content with simply not believing them no matter how convinced they may be of their own informedness. (I'm convinced that last word should be as valid to use as 'truthiness.')

I recently had an experience with an auto mechanic and thinking the same thing. But he did give me a 20 minute explanation with models and a printout. But I did not like what he had to say.
So, due diligence.

To quote Robert Anton Wilson: "What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."

He's so suave. I believe a possible Zen corollary of this statement would be: "Instantaneous!"

 

[Roma]

Pessimism is usually thought of as a negative world view

Pure pessimism may attract adverse entities including human. "birds of a feather flock together"

It may be better to be optimistic about long term outcomes while recognizing that not everything goes well all the time. Sometimes the world needs to re-experience problems before it decides to move on

 

[HoldAll]

Tedious attempts at humour aside, my position is this: Things might get better somehow but they sure can get always worse. Which makes me a pessimist, I suppose.

 

[Roma]

Which makes me a pessimist, I suppose.

If the Earth human has design functionality that includes directionality/intent, it might be important to choose in which direction to face.

Karmic implications abound

 

[KjEno186]

today he comes off as a salesman.

I'm OK with the concept of GOD being above duality. In fact it has been proposed that Christ descended all the way into duality in order to redeem humanity, that is to provide for our eventual evolution up the planes of the Tree of Life back to oneness with GOD. That said, Paul's God comes across as one having Paul's opinions, thus dualistic, and not unlike the Greek and Roman deities of the time.

Now, if you'll suffer a minor divergence from the topic, I'll offer a quote from Prometheus Rising by R. A. Wilson:

This is why Nietzsche claimed that St. Paul had destroyed the evangel (good news) of Jesus and replaced it with a dysangel (bad news). The evangel of Jesus, as Nietzsche saw it, was the sublimated Will to Power, the path of conscious evolution to Superhumanity. The dysangel, the bad news, created by St. Paul was traditional Sklavmoral - "Slaves, obey your masters," but nourish your resentment with the firm belief that you are "good," and they are "evil," and you will eventually have the pleasure of watching them burn in hell forever.​

It is interesting to note that in his introduction to Prometheus Rising, Israel Regardie quite openly said he did not share Wilson's optimism for a coming Utopia. I'm quite inclined to agree with Regardie. Wilson had a lot of good ideas, but his overwhelming optimism of a brighter future is based on believing that his "map" is the territory. Then there is the obvious issue with a focus on the future: it wastes a perfectly usable present.

 

[Roma]

Push along this 3D timeline to 2080 on this planet. How does Earth humanity feel then?

 

[Taudefindi]

Pessimism is usually thought of as a negative world view - everything is doomed to turned to crap

I like to think that being a pessimist is be prepared for the worst while hoping for the best, while being an optimist is being unprepared for the worst exactly because you're hoping for the best.

Between being unprepared and prepared, I certainly prefer to be prepared.

Then there is also the fact that pessimists hardly need to deal with disappointment exactly because they expect to be disappointed, so if they get a disappointment they won't suffer as much as someone that "expected better" but they will be pleasantly surprised if things go better than expected.

Post automatically merged: Aug 21, 2023

Pure pessimism may attract adverse entities including human. "birds of a feather flock together"

I never felt like this applied when it came to pessimism/optimism.

I think what happens is that a person's compounded characteristics will all work to end up attracting those similar to them, "like seeks like" as someone somewhere once said, but it isn't that it's pessimism itself that will attract such.
It's everything that makes a person the way they are, their actions, their words, their thoughts, their beliefs and etc.

The whole is the attractor, not a single part of the whole.

Things might get better somehow but they sure can get always worse. Which makes me a pessimist, I suppose.

I would like to call this kind of mindset "meh", because it sums up that "so-so" chance we all have in life of things going either way.

 

[Roma]

Push along this 3D timeline to 2080 on this planet. How does Earth humanity feel then?

This is a significant experiment

 

[Xenophon]

Both the optimist and the pessimist insist each of them is the lone realist in the room.

 

[Roma]

Experiments are useful to distinguish artificial constructs from isomorphic constructs

 

[Xenophon]

This is a significant experiment

In what way? I imagine the optimist would tend to be optimistic about the world then; the other guy would be the opposite. Or did I miss something?

 

[Roma]

Reality is present in the Earth's energy field. Those that can manage energy flows can test whether concepts are consistent with Reality.

The rest believe what they like - until life gets too hard

 

[byte007]

So lately I have been strolling through the weeds of Western Philosophy as a sort of supplement to my occult studies, a review of ideas that fascinate me in youth, and also as a kind of entertainment. A lot of this I can do thanks to all those free audio books on LibriVox. As I absorb and compare to my past experience with these philosophies, I am a reminded of general trend historical towards Pessimism. This applies to Eastern Philosophy as well. But I am familiar with schools of thought that deny there is any real Evil to be contended with in the world, and all you have to do is think happy thoughts and you will live a wonderful life.

Now, Pessimism is usually thought of as a negative world view - everything is doomed to turned to crap. In philosophy, though, it can have a constructive effect in that makes us look hard at ourselves, our world and being. "Know thyself", that old maxim, was not meant for people who see the world as a rose garden. Pessimism can also unify spirituality with more mundane forms of knowledge, such as we find in the hard sciences, though the viewpoints that come out of this can go in any direction. The same could be said to be true of Optimism, but I think history has proven since the invention of the machine gun that Progress is a little overrated. But back to the usual daily mode of Pessimism - the pessimist is generally a depressive outlook which on the one hand flees from pain, though on the other hand it can embrace pain as revelation of resignation to a world that is cold and meaningless.

Optimism looks naturally preferable, but I think that in its initial phases its can be just simple naivety that has not encountered true misfortune. Still, it seems that even as the world crumbles in its perpetual renewal, it would be nicer to feel happy in spite things. I have met folks that smile and embrace a joyous view of life in spite of the sky falling, but they are rare. I think they have to - the Fool, so to speak, can only dash along the edge of the Abyss if he does not look down.

Optimism would seem to be the polar opposite of Pessimism, but it can be tricky in that Optimism can have a negative side. For example, a "Toxic Optimist" would tell you that all the misfortunes of life boil down to a negative attitude, which attracts negative consequences. To say this cheerfully to a person who boarded a train hopefully expecting a better new life only to be dumped off at a concentration camp would seem a cruelty, I think. The same is true of those suffering from horrible illness - they weren't necessarily thinking bad thoughts when they went to the doctor. I mean, shit happens to people regardless of their attitude, though I think the true, honest optimist would try to make the best of it - which would mean some pessimism would have to be in the character.

Considering the limited presentations of the ideas of above, I ask, are you and Optimist or a Pessimist? I think modifications of polarity are acceptable, this is really not a two sided issue, more a scale of shades. I will say I am a "Guarded Optimist", meaning that I think things will turn out well enough in the end if one has faith, puts in the work and just keeps going in spite of all the crap, but I have to admit to Pessimism in that there is crap and unpleasantness that must be dealt with, and this can be a moody thing. I mean, the world can mess you up! I see it all the time and cannot pretend it is just an attitude problem. But I claim Optimism even as an obligation - trials can be overcome, but the acknowledgement of trial means acknowledgment of Pessimism.

I don't believe either makes a lot of sense to me based on the definitions. I find the definition of Optimist has several aspects to it, hope was one. If there is no probability of a positive outcome hope makes no sense regardless of how you choose your attitude to be. I would say I am a positive realist instead, meaning that I look at myself as well as the externals and note the patterns of reality and of course I do my best to not be emotionally attached to avoid bias. Then from that, I make my decision as to what I think about things. For example, if the pattern shows a negative probable outcome I can't change, I am realistic about it but decide to find the positive in the moments and try to learn from the negative pattern so it can have a positive aspect. I think many get mislabelled as pessimistic if they are a realist as reality is often not nice...lol It is funny because to a pessimist, I would probably often be labelled an optimist, and an optimist would probably often label me a pessimist... I like I think you are most likely also a positive realist which seems similar to Guarded Optimist!

 

[stalkinghyena]

I like I think you are most likely also a positive realist which seems similar to Guarded Optimist!

Thank you for your thoughts but since my writing of the OP I have since changed my position to Reformed Intermediatism. This had much to do with re-diving back into the works of Charles Hoy Fort and coming out with the musing recognition that not only am I "not the deep sea fish I think I am", but that I can trick myself into believing any proposition for the purpose of manifesting its opposite. That is, it occurs to me (not so much because of him, he's just the preacher) that everything contains it's own contradiction. I consider this to be a sort of "Negative Law of Attraction" - if I don't wish for it, it will come.

I know that may not sound very magical - but if it is intentional...

I just can't believe that Bill Whitcomb did not form a "Law of Irony" in his Magical Axioms. But then again he might have hidden it in a blind.
(But he does say that the trick is to switch from one model to the other, which has a Fortean appeal for some reason.)

Anyways, I'm still stuck on how this could be a sales pitch:
1 Corinthians, 10:23: "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient. All things are lawful for me, but all things do not edify."

 

[byte007]

Thank you for your thoughts but since my writing of the OP I have since changed my position to Reformed Intermediatism. This had much to do with re-diving back into the works of Charles Hoy Fort and coming out with the musing recognition that not only am I "not the deep sea fish I think I am", but that I can trick myself into believing any proposition for the purpose of manifesting its opposite. That is, it occurs to me (not so much because of him, he's just the preacher) that everything contains it's own contradiction. I consider this to be a sort of "Negative Law of Attraction" - if I don't wish for it, it will come.

I know that may not sound very magical - but if it is intentional...

I just can't believe that Bill Whitcomb did not form a "Law of Irony" in his Magical Axioms. But then again he might have hidden it in a blind.
(But he does say that the trick is to switch from one model to the other, which has a Fortean appeal for some reason.)

Anyways, I'm still stuck on how this could be a sales pitch:
1 Corinthians, 10:23: "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient. All things are lawful for me, but all things do not edify."

It is an interesting verse that says a lot.

 

[Vandheer]

Usually I am pessimistic. These days, more of an optimist, with a little sodomy on the side.

 

[8Lou1]

i walk both sides and then i nullify only to get annoyed at my own antinomianism while if i had kept it at its original meaning, sharing in accumulated wealth, i wouldnt be in this pickle to begin with. some things are really not worth thinking about, cause when you think about it, it destroys ones goodness ie the difference between calculated gain and finding. it looks the same, but it isnt.

shit happens when trust is broken....