[Opinion] The Foundational Principles of Franz Bardon's System

[HoldAll]

I was overlooking Franz Bardon for a while, untill I saw a gentleman called Mark Rasmus, who combines Hermeticism with Taoist practices. And he is teaching all of Bardon's system as far as I can tell. You can google him for a lot of free videos on youtube. Now I think the system is worthwhile.

https://wizardforums.com/threads/mark-rasmus-jake-senn-back-door-into-hermetics-a-guide-to-becoming-initiated-into-the-mysteries.3418/#post-98028

 

[Angelkesfarl]

Agrippa's Three Books "program" is basically patterned on the Platonic Divided Line, which is essentially to realize one is already immortal, one with the Source, within the framework of the Christian Logos. This framework, due to restrictions of the ideology and terminology of the 16th century, obscures the ancient doctrine of reincarnation of the "Soul" into the fleshly Hylic sublunar world of particular things. Plotinus is constantly referred in the text for a reason.

In the simplest terms, the Occult Philosophy is for the Ratio, or reasoning mind to work out. One must move away from the base reality of appearances (Platonically, Eikasia) into the investigation of Nature (Book I). From there one tries to reach for the state of Mania, (via mathesis, celestial magic, Book 2), which is essentially theurgy and at best heterodox for the time, but broaching on true heresy, of which Cornelius was well aware. The final step is Felicitas, (via religious ceremony on the foundation of natural and celestial magic, Book III) that is the path towards the true realization and incarnated union with the Divine which can only be expressed in terms of "agnosis" - beyond all knowing or expression, aka the "via negativa" which could be compared to Ain Soph or even Nirvana in some ways - though I think Cornelius would deny any "snuffing out".

I like to compare this last to the conversations of Poimandres and Hermes Trismegistus regarding the Nous. The "immortality" ("that which sees and hears within you") always was there to begin with, one is just forgetful of it, clinging in the world of appearances and craving repetitions of gratifications that give one a sort of shadow existence that one confuses as real. Agrippa's magical theory is about working through these shadows, but this relies on deep reading and contemplation of the people and figures he points to. He used a lot of figurative language and parables, but so did Jesus.

Not bad for someone in his early 20's, when he first wrote it.

But back to Bardon, you can see a similar telos in his book on spirit evocation, albeit with more modern theosophical influences. The DNA is there. One might say that the generations of teachers, whatever their successes or failures, in the most subtle way, have always been and are still talking to Poimandres!

"A profoundly mature and scholarly analysis. Your correlation of Agrippa’s work with the Platonic 'Divided Line' and the Hermetic 'Nous' reveals a mind that understands a fundamental truth: spiritual practice is not the acquisition of new power, but the remembrance (Anamnesis) of a celestial origin forgotten amidst the density of the hylic world.

However, allow me to add a perspective from the ancient Eastern schools: Agrippa, despite his early genius, operated within the 'constrictions of his era.' He was forced to shroud the Prisca Theologia (The Ancient Doctrine) in the terminology of the 16th-century Christian Logos and late Hermeticism to shield himself from the blade of heresy.

What you identify as Felicitas in Book III—the path of 'Agnosis'—we in the East recognize as the state of Fana’ (Annihilation in the Truth). Here, the Ratio (reasoning mind) does not simply vanish; it is recalibrated to the frequency of the Source. The Poimandres that generations continue to converse with is but an echo of the 'First Voice' heard by the sages of Egypt and Sumer long before Plato penned a single word.

Agrippa was not merely a messenger; he was an 'architect' who redesigned the cosmic map using the compass of his time. The 'immortality' he pointed to is what we call the primordial Barhayoula—the spiritual essence that remains untouched by the poverty of the flesh or the confines of a prison cell.

I applaud your mention of Franz Bardon; indeed, the 'occult DNA' is consistent. Whether it is Agrippa, Bardon, or those of us standing here today, we are all attempting to decode the same cosmic memory. We are all, in our own way, still talking to the Light."

Post automatically merged: Dec 21, 2025

I have great appreciation for IIH. I don't think we can point at the sparse details we have from Bardon's personal life as an indictment of its effectiveness. Few of us have lived through the hardships and oppression that he suffered. What he is teaching with the elemental work is fundamentally Tibetan esotericism that requires a monastic retreat lifestyle to approach the states of concentration needed and whether he himself was capable of all of the feats that he teaches seems irrelevant. Agrippa appears to have been more of a compiler and archivist than anything and much of his writing on nature is blatantly misinformed when compared with our understanding today, and yet there is still wisdom within his writing that can be put into practice in effective ways.

Personally, I have had few experiences that match the visceral, primal feeling of elemental accumulation as taught by Bardon. Feeling the weight of the earth element build to such extremes that it feels as if one will crush oneself underneath the pressure, where even one's own breathing becomes restricted, is hard to simply hand wave away.

Faithfully engaging with what he teaches in the first few practices would leave anyone in a better position to advance their magical practice in whichever way they see fit.

"Greetings, taschr. I deeply appreciate your sincere and thoughtful contribution. You’ve touched on a vital point: the visceral experience you described—the crushing weight of the Earth element and the restriction of breath—is a testament to the intensity of your practice and the strength of your focus. I would never deny that Bardon’s system refines the 'instrument' (the practitioner) with remarkable precision.

However, let us look at this with the cold rationality of a practitioner: Is the ultimate goal of Magick to 'feel' the element, or to 'command' it to alter reality? What you described is the interaction of the Microcosm with elemental density; this is a triumph of Bardon’s school in tempering the Will. But my inquiry goes deeper. High Magick, as practiced by the ancients, did not stop at feeling the pressure—it utilized that pressure to move mountains or transmute the properties of matter before one's very eyes.

I agree that Agrippa was more of an archivist, whereas Bardon was a technical practitioner. Yet, don’t you think that limiting such effectiveness to a 'monastic retreat' or a 'Tibetan lifestyle' is a tacit admission that this system lacks the flexibility needed to face the complexities of life? The science I speak of must function in the laboratory, on the battlefield, and in the heart of the city.

The weight and restricted breathing you experienced are 'physiological effects' of etheric charging—an excellent start. But the real challenge remains: Can that weight move beyond the boundary of your 'internal sensation' and become a 'physical mass' perceived by others? This is where 'Spiritual Self-Development' diverges from 'Authoritative Magick' that manipulates matter.

It is refreshing to engage with someone who tests these forces faithfully. I am curious to hear your thoughts: Do you view Bardon’s system as an end in itself, or merely a 'preparatory phase' for something far more absolute?

 

[dema354]

Personally my main gripe with Initiation into Hermetics and Bardon's system is that it's very ineffective but maybe that's because I approached it from a chaos magician's perspective. If anyone's curious they can see more details about why I find his system be very ineffective here: A look into Franz's Initiation into Hermetics

 

[taschr]

However, let us look at this with the cold rationality of a practitioner: Is the ultimate goal of Magick to 'feel' the element, or to 'command' it to alter reality? What you described is the interaction of the Microcosm with elemental density; this is a triumph of Bardon’s school in tempering the Will. But my inquiry goes deeper. High Magick, as practiced by the ancients, did not stop at feeling the pressure—it utilized that pressure to move mountains or transmute the properties of matter before one's very eyes.
Do you view Bardon’s system as an end in itself, or merely a 'preparatory phase' for something far more absolute?

So this largely fits within my view of the magician as a bridge between the neoplatonic realms where magic is accomplished by connecting each layer of reality toward a single purpose, like layered pieces of fabric being pinched together at one point. Therefor, I value the mastering of every layer of this reality. Much of ritual magic trends towards pleading for a higher being to do something on your behalf and it ignores mastery of subtle energies. I think this is ultimately a handicap that will cripple one in skill and in spiritual knowledge. Simply reciting a God name a magical number of times and hoping for the best doesn't do much for me as my practice is firmly rooted in experiential knowledge. When working with deities or spirits I don't take the approach of commanding authority over them, I approach them on their level and I think this is impossible without first understanding what that even means and more importantly what it feels like, but this is something that Bardon's teachings are quite good at pointing one towards.

I don't necessarily think Bardon's system is an end in itself, nor do I think Bardon's system is the only way of attaining mastery in these things, but I do think that finding a concentration practice that attunes one to everything that is within one's field of awareness is essential. As I've mentioned, Bardon is largely repackaging Tibetan practices, one could follow that path, although it is difficult to approach for the Westerner. One can also approach this topic from a more Golden Dawn/Kabbalist direction and likely achieve the same familiarity.

I view this work of as one piece in the larger tapestry. It may be incomplete, but its very important to find mastery in the area of concentration, the energy body, and the subtle forces that constantly push and pull at the untrained mind.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 7:59 PM

Yet, don’t you think that limiting such effectiveness to a 'monastic retreat' or a 'Tibetan lifestyle' is a tacit admission that this system lacks the flexibility needed to face the complexities of life?

Also, on this note, no I don't think that. The ancient magi were not living a life of constant media consumption and distraction, they lived alone in the desert for long stretches of time. To hope to achieve extraordinary spiritual feats without putting in any effort is mere wishful thinking.

 

[aviaf]

Bardon is pretty overrated. While it appears he did have some abilities, he also was in poor health & was helpless to do anything about it (despite all the grandiose claims made in his books). As well, if you're attuned enough, you can pick up a 'heaviness' from his photos. He didn't have access to higher initiatic truths despite all the accolades heaped upon him.

You’re doing the same thing here that you did in the other thread: confusing your personal vibe‑readings with actual analysis.
Bardon wasn’t “overrated.” He was one of the only 20th‑century occultists who produced a system that is structured, testable, and doesn’t require buying into anyone’s mythology. You don’t have to like him, but pretending he had “no access to higher initiatic truths” because you feel a “heaviness” from a photograph is not an argument. It’s just aesthetic divination dressed up as insight.
And the “poor health = not a real adept” angle is even weaker. By that standard, half the mystics, saints, yogis, and magicians across history would be disqualified. Physical frailty doesn’t invalidate spiritual attainment. If anything, it’s the norm. Bardon never claimed immortality or invulnerability; he claimed a method. The method stands or falls on its results, not on whether he died with perfect blood pressure.
You’re also assuming that “higher initiatic truths” are some objective ladder you can audit from the outside. Bardon’s work is deliberately non‑theatrical. He didn’t wrap his system in grandiose mythic language, which is probably why you’re mistaking restraint for lack of attainment.
If you want to critique his exercises, his structure, or his metaphysics, do it. But diagnosing his spiritual ceiling from a photo and his medical history is just armchair clairvoyance.
Raise the level of the critique or pick a different target.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:17 PM

Greetings, my friend,

I completely understand your critical viewpoint regarding Bardon—it is a common perspective among seekers who note the contradiction between the magnificent theory and the failing human application.

The Principle of Separating the Legislator from the Law
Allow me to remind you of a fundamental point in our spiritual path:

The Law does not fail; the individual might: Whether Bardon was in poor health or not, the Five Elemental Principles he established are not personal inventions; they are Cosmic Laws tied to the fundamental structure of the universe. An individual's failure to perfectly apply the Law does not invalidate the Law itself.

Value Lies in Methodology: The true significance of Bardon's system is not found in his personal health results, but in his insistence on methodological rigor and his demand for complete Internal Elemental Control (The Soul) before attempting to control the External Element (Nature). This provides a definitive barrier against magical charlatanry and unfounded claims.

Focus on the Structure: We must move away from critiquing human shortcomings and focus on the constant value: Bardon provided a structural system that allows the Magician to understand their Microcosm. This internal foundation is the necessary first step before delving into the Greater Mathematical Geometry that governs the external world (as in our own sciences).

Therefore, let us discuss the strength of the Akasha concept or the Mastery of the Mental Vacuum, rather than judging a personal photograph that may not reflect the entire truth.

I appreciate the spirit of what you’re saying. Separating the system from the man is always the right move. Bardon’s personal limitations don’t invalidate the structure he left behind. On that point, we agree.

But let’s keep the discussion anchored in what actually matters.

Bardon didn’t claim to be the Legislator of Cosmic Law, and treating his elemental schema as if it descended fully formed from the Absolute is just the mirror‑image mistake of the people who dismiss him because they don’t like his medical history. His value isn’t in being some flawless conduit of metaphysical truth. It’s in the fact that he produced a system that is coherent, cumulative, and testable in practice.

That’s the part people keep missing.

IIH stands or falls on its methodology, not on Bardon’s biography and not on metaphysical proclamations about “Cosmic Law.” The soul mirrors, the attentional discipline, the elemental balancing... these aren’t dogmas, they’re diagnostics. They give the practitioner a way to map their own microcosm without relying on theatrics or borrowed myth.

That’s why the “he looks heavy in photos” critique is meaningless. And it’s also why turning Bardon into a kind of esoteric Moses doesn’t help either. The strength of IIH is that it doesn’t require that kind of framing.

If we want to talk about the Akasha concept, the mental vacuum, or the internal architecture of the system, great! Those are real conversations. But the moment we drift into personality worship or personality dismissal, we’re off the road.

Bardon’s system is valuable because it works when you work it.
Everything else is noise.

 

[Angelkesfarl]

If we want to talk about the Akasha concept, the mental vacuum, or the internal architecture of the system, great! Those are real conversations. But the moment we drift into personality worship or personality dismissal, we’re off the road.

Bardon’s system is valuable because it works when you work it.

"I couldn't agree more, Aviaf. Let’s lean in and focus on the mechanics of the system itself, leaving personalities at the door. You’ve hit the mark: Bardon’s system is a living technology that proves its worth through practice, not praise.

Let’s start at the very core—The Akasha.

In Bardon’s framework, Akasha isn't just a 'fifth element' or a passive void; it is the ultimate causal principle. It is the 'Non-Light' and the 'No-Thing' from which everything vibrates into existence. When we achieve the Mental Vacuum, we aren't just silencing thoughts; we are shifting our consciousness from the 'content' of the mind to the 'container' itself.

To kick off our discussion, I’d like to pose this: if Akasha is beyond the laws of the four elements, how does the practitioner 'work' within it without being swallowed by its eternal stillness? Is our goal to dwell there, or to use it as the ultimate vantage point to re-order our own reality?

Looking forward to dissecting this with you."

 

[Beyond Everything]

You’re doing the same thing here that you did in the other thread: confusing your personal vibe‑readings with actual analysis.

You're doing the same thing you did in the other thread.. And it's extremely common from occultists and esotericists, so it's scarcely a surprise to me after so many years witnessing it. That thing is the adamant refusal to look squarely at actual results.

Bardon wasn’t “overrated.” He was one of the only 20th‑century occultists who produced a system that is structured, testable, and doesn’t require buying into anyone’s mythology. You don’t have to like him,

lol@thinking this is a matter of personal likes or dislikes.

Bardon never claimed immortality or invulnerability; he claimed a method. The method stands or falls on its results, not on whether he died with perfect blood pressure.

Look what you said here- The method stands or falls on results. And since the claim in his own book is perfect health can be obtained through the use of the letters, well guess what? I think we have quite a blatant fail as per results. Are we supposed to ignore this little inconvenient fact?

He also did claim explicitly that the spirits he listed and the letters he discussed can help one fashion the philosopher's stone.

I also pointed out the disjuncture between the enormous claims of such things as prescience given for the spirits and letters in his bookos, versus his seeming haplessness in not relocating the hell out of where he was (which, again, others did without the 'benefit' of those spirits and letters')

 

[BBBB]

Franz Bardon was a Chezh occultist in the beginning of 20th century. To say he had “no access to higher initiatic truths” is very bold and very funny to anyone who knows the role of Chezh Republic in history of the occult. I'd say, among every other occultist, Bardon just very well might have had the best access to “higher initiatic truths”.
And as Alfred Korzybski taught us, structure is more important for understanding, than individual objects, it's how you create a map. If Bardon brings good structure, then his teaching is not useless. If his structure is better, you can take that, and fill in the blanks with help of others or your own research. But if your structure is worse or non-existant, then you are lost.
Unfortunately, best knowledge doesn't equal best health. And they call taoist "immortals" such not because they live forever in human bodies.

 

[Beyond Everything]

I'd say, among every other occultist, Bardon just very well might have had the best access to “higher initiatic truths”.

Yet he was unable to heal himself and his attempts just made his condition worse. How curious! And I explain below his lack of access to the highest initiatic truths.

Unfortunately, best knowledge doesn't equal best health.

Perhaps he shouldn't have made the spurious claim that the letters can lead to perfect physical health then? lol

And they call taoist "immortals" such not because they live forever in human bodies.

Yes, Taoist alchemists attempt to form the higher subtle body. Bardon was clueless about that, hence his discussion of astral immortality. Two very distinct things if you know anything about real esotericism. And anyway this is irrelevant, as- once again- Bardon is the one who made the claim about perfect physical health through the practices he presented.

 

[Solar]

AFAIK in Frabato, his biography, it was mentionend that he was a spirit from the Brotherhood of Light that took over the body of a young boy named “Franz Bardon”, due to his father praying to God for someone to initiate him.

He inherited the young boys karma that included several health issues that couldnt/shouldnt be fixed with magic.

 

[Beyond Everything]

AFAIK in Frabato, his biography, it was mentionend that he was a spirit from the Brotherhood of Light that took over the body of a young boy named “Franz Bardon”, due to his father praying to God for someone to initiate him.

He inherited the young boys karma that included several health issues that couldnt/shouldnt be fixed with magic.

Frabato is less an accurate biography than a love letter from his secretary. So , I'd label these as rationalizations for the claims vs results. and... 'shouldn't' be fixed with magic is rank superstition in my book.

 

[Solar]

Frabato is less an accurate biography than a love letter from his secretary. So , I'd label these as rationalizations for the claims vs results. and... 'shouldn't' be fixed with magic is rank superstition in my book.

Its just one possible explanation. I tend to partly believe it, although I doubt that obesity is set in stone through karma

 

[BBBB]

Yet he was unable to heal himself and his attempts just made his condition worse. How curious! And I explain below his lack of access to the highest initiatic truths.


Perhaps he shouldn't have made the spurious claim that the letters can lead to perfect physical health then? lol


Yes, Taoist alchemists attempt to form the higher subtle body. Bardon was clueless about that, hence his discussion of astral immortality. Two very distinct things if you know anything about real esotericism. And anyway this is irrelevant, as- once again- Bardon is the one who made the claim about perfect physical health through the practices he presented.

I don't know the whole story, but you seem to be preoccupied with physical immortality like continual existence of a body over indefinite time, while spiritual beings care for other things, and one spirit may have different bodies, which might be the case with Bardon, so it's not proven wrong untill there is a change that others can achieve what he claimed they could do with his system. If some did, they wouldn't want publicity. And then, what you say about subtle body is basically another body for a practitioner. So he still dies biologically. Can you prove that Bradon didn't have immortal subtle body?

 

[Beyond Everything]

I don't know the whole story, but you seem to be preoccupied with physical immortality like continual existence of a body over indefinite time,

I said nothing about physical immortality. I mentioned good physical health while living, and the higher subtle body of immortality post-mortem.

while spiritual beings care for other things, and one spirit may have different bodies, which might be the case with Bardon, so it's not proven wrong untill there is a change that others can achieve what he claimed they could do with his system. If some did, they wouldn't want publicity. And then, what you say about subtle body is basically another body for a practitioner. So he still dies biologically. Can you prove that Bradon didn't have immortal subtle body?

He WAS interested in being physically healthier. He attempted to use spagyrics to do so, and it failed for him. The bleedingly obvious question is why the letters couldn't bring him to a state of physical optimal health. Why make large claims and then they fail. He ain't the only one, either, Id say a lot of people involved in his work die younger than average from what I've seen.

Bardon actually committed suicide in prison. His wife gave him a fatty piece of meat which meant his weakened pancreas would completely fail and thus death. In The Key to the True Kabbalah it states the letters can free one from any prison, so do I need to state the obvious question here?. lol

I mean if he was unable to help his health physically (despite the claims of perfect health given in his work) and prison meant he committed suicide, it's looking like he was a bit more ordinary than his devoted fanboys like to believe.

A true master would have left where he lived before the Nazis (and Communists) took over. And saying he was just meeting his 'fate' and did it willingly is untrue too- he had plans in the works for other books that his death prevented.

I'm done with this topic as this is tedious, either people want to live in fantasy or they can look at the claims in the books and the facts as they exist.