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What are your thoughts on free will? Do you believe it exists or not? Curious.

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So in a nutshell, where are we at?
Free will implies choice, destiny (such as Calvinists philosophy or theology) does not.
Every day we must face a decision, one or more.
Every day we must then make a choice.
Every day we must exert free will.
 

Roma

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Are there experiments to detect free will?

A few weeks ago at the home of a single mother with 4 kids.

The youngest girl was carrying on about wanting a new dress before going out to some immediate event. The mother had trouble calming her down.

Just after, the girl (age 6) was walking near me so I asked "Were you kicking up a fuss?"

She gave me a secret smile and moved on.

Was her fuss an example of free will?
 

byte007

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So in a nutshell, where are we at?
Free will implies choice, destiny (such as Calvinists philosophy or theology) does not.
Every day we must face a decision, one or more.
Every day we must then make a choice.
Every day we must exert free will.
Well at least we think we do, the question is how much is actually free will. We know the fear aspects of the Creator deceives and so much of our population is about avoiding responsibility and putting the blame somewhere else. If the Creator is anything like us, we know that we would have some choice otherwise the Creator would have to take responsibility for everything and that is not going to happen with the fear being as high as it is...lol Although if the Creator is everything then technically... But we do experience the experience of separate consciousness so I guess the Creator could use that loophole...lol Gotta have a sense of humour about it as we navigate the rabbit hole.

I am sure the Creator has a sense of humour, (could not imagine how difficult it must be to be in that position). I am all for free will! I don't know if we will ever be able to prove either way how it is. Many like to think they know, but how could they know for sure? We think we do (at least most) so that counts for something! If we go into this Reset I wonder if that effects anything as far as free will in the unseen realm since people will lose much conscious free will and fear will increase. Makes you think for sure...
 

Roma

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With perhaps a trillion galaxies in this universe alone, how much bandwidth does The Source of All require to replace free will?

Perhaps it is just easier to let the kids run around while they sort out what they are here for.

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I recall seeing a suicide note to be on craigslist once. I spoke with a magician and said I'd give anything for it to not happen .. and was politely warned not to be so hasty in offering anything. She then saw something inspirational and decided not to.
Now.
I'd like to think neither destiny or fate was involved. But who's to say?
My career ended. Maybe that was the price to pay.
In acceptance of taking up Magick full time, it's possible my woes are and were the price to pay.
There is always a price isn't there.
 

byte007

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Are there experiments to detect free will?

A few weeks ago at the home of a single mother with 4 kids.

The youngest girl was carrying on about wanting a new dress before going out to some immediate event. The mother had trouble calming her down.

Just after, the girl (age 6) was walking near me so I asked "Were you kicking up a fuss?"

She gave me a secret smile and moved on.

Was her fuss an example of free will?

I recall seeing a suicide note to be on craigslist once. I spoke with a magician and said I'd give anything for it to not happen .. and was politely warned not to be so hasty in offering anything. She then saw something inspirational and decided not to.
Now.
I'd like to think neither destiny or fate was involved. But who's to say?
My career ended. Maybe that was the price to pay.
In acceptance of taking up Magick full time, it's possible my woes are and were the price to pay.
There is always a price isn't there.
Now, as Roma was mentioning about experiments to measure it. If we were all to put our desires and actions constantly all day in a software program, we probably could get enough data to show something there as far as Karma but free will is more difficult to measure, don't think we could ever do it. I bet the top of the pyramid has all the data on karma and with their Reset agenda they will get even more which they want.

I believe in cause and effect and I guess karma could be apart of that with free will. Without free will, karma makes no sense does it? Karma would be a form of control for the Creator to manage the flow so to speak of where things go, but it does not look like it works too well if that is the case...lol People think and say things like that all the time so why would the Creator decide to do your will and give you negative for it when you should get positive for that one? That is my take on it.
 

Roma

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There is a theory that The Source of All on occasion brings universes into temporary existence in order to experience through the myriad intelligences thus produced.

If that is true, then without free will, the experiences would become repetitive

Karma seems to operate at a denser levels - whereby the intelligences that manage universes use discomfort/karma to encourage lesser intelligences to cooperate in providing coherent experiences to The Source of All
 

byte007

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There is a theory that The Source of All on occasion brings universes into temporary existence in order to experience through the myriad intelligences thus produced.

If that is true, then without free will, the experiences would become repetitive

Karma seems to operate at a denser levels - whereby the intelligences that manage universes use discomfort/karma to encourage lesser intelligences to cooperate in providing coherent experiences to The Source of All
I have not heard of that theory, thanks for sharing. I read about the psychology of the myriad intelligence's just now, some sense in there for sure. As far as the Source getting bored without free will, I don't it makes a difference. The will my be to create a new symphony given to the person and they create it (the creator does through the person). No free will does not mean no new creation for the Source, the choice of notes in the song is made by the Source but the person thinks they do it is the theory of it.

When you think about it, we do not get board of good experiences do we? At least the feelings/positive emotions we get from the result of an experience, so I would think it would be negative experiences the Source would tire of. As far as repetition, I am sure the experiences of existence for the Source are very repetitious so I see what you are saying that other universes with maybe a whole new type of existence may bring new experiences, but I think it would still be somewhat repetitive with variance. Humans do not get that board of repetition unless it is a task they don't like. I certainly have not gotten board of sex yet and it is very repetitious (all that in, out, in, out...lol) :p Gotta use humour to make a point...lol
 

byte007

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That may not be true for humans. Many have their greatest learnings under adverse circumstances
Very good point. I totally agree with that statement about learning through adversity, I know all about that one. Thanks for offering that great addition. Yes, for sure adversity is required I agree, but it should be sensible adversity and not negative emotional toil with no reward as far as a good learning experience at least otherwise it becomes obtuse. I think most humans repeat the same mistakes and go through negative emotional toil that is pointless. We don't learn that well overall as a species if you look at things in that respect. I think the Source would tire of the negative experiences that have no positive side to it to rephrase my statement.
 

Wintruz

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The basic facts of your existence are outside of your control; that is your DNA, the time you're born, etc.

I would go further than this and tell you a truth that most people resist; for the overwhelming majority of humanity, what is called the mind is also bestowed by external forces. Socialisation and the immediate environment, along with bits of old memories (usually of heightened emotional reactions to external stimuli) and signals from the body, make up the mixed bag that is most minds. A particular configuration of these forces is often talked about as though it were "you" and that is if a person goes so far as to ask such a rare question in the first place. While you identify with this externally constructed mind you are subject to the capriciousness of life in an uncertain world, after all "a slave is not greater than his master". Your life is determined to the extent that it is a Life at all.

Yet, deeper than the mind and its tumult, there is a principle which is latent but, once-stirred, can examine and reconfigure the material it finds itself to have awoken in (including the mind). This Work of self-creation also influences the external world. You are no longer merely subject to external stimuli but capable of playing with it. It won't stop you from getting hit by a bullet if you walk into the wrong place at the wrong time (the body largely remains enmeshed in exteriority), but it will give you the ecstasy of genuine self-transformation and the recreation of your life into something more beautiful than miserly fate would have dished out.
 

KjEno186

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122. How can spirits, at their origin, when they have not yet acquired self-consciousness, possess freedom of choice between good and evil? Is there in them any principle, any tendency, which inclines them towards either road rather than towards the other?​
[The Spirit's answer:] "Free-will is developed in proportion as the spirit acquires the consciousness of himself. Freedom would not exist for the spirit if his choice were solicited by a cause independent of his will. The cause which determines his choice is not in him, but is exterior to him, in the influences to which he voluntarily yields in virtue of the freedom of his will. It is this choice that is represented under the grand figure of the fall of man and of original sin. Some spirits have yielded to temptation; others have withstood it." - The Spirits' Book, Allan Kardec​

My Commentary: Free will requires a sufficiently developed intelligence in order to function. Self consciousness permits the entity (human or spirit) to observe and compare self with not-self, and the Subject-Mediator relationship is established. The Object of Desire is modeled by the Mediator. (Subject=Eve; Mediator=Serpent; Object=Fruit) This is the triangle of Secret Desire according to the Mimetic theory of Rene Girard. The entity (human or spirit Subject) uses its knowledge and relationships to make choices. The entity can have knowledge that certain decisions bring harm to others.

Temptation occurs when the Mediator or Model appears to portray the Object of Desire as having greater value to the Subject than any known harms which may occur. Rationalization is used internally to erode barriers to action until Desire overrides all inhibition. When entities observe each other modeling a particular negative behavior, the barriers to action decrease exponentially with each additional participant in a destructive action. This is the modus operandi of the violent mob. "Sinner! Foreigner! Deviant!" cries the enraged mob. The first to cast a stone becomes the model for the rest of the participants in the mob. They seek catharsis and a unanimous Object upon which to channel their collective anger. (There is a magical/occult element to this which no academic would openly consider, to wit that such mobs attract sympathetic (angry, vindictive) entities that add their own inclinations to the mob and feed off of the incarnate humans' emotional energies. That's a discussion for another thread.)

Complicating the matter further, the Mediator of Desire can be an antagonist to the Subject in pursuit of the Object, such as the classic love triangle of competing suitors for the same woman. A further permutation occurs when the Mediator and Object are the same from the perspective of the Subject. Said the Serpent to Eve: "You will be like God..."

15. What should we think of the opinion holding that all the bodies in nature, all the beings and globes in the universe are components of the Divinity, and taken all together comprise the Divinity itself; i.e. the pantheistic doctrine?​
[The Spirit's answer:] “Since humans are unable to make themselves God, they would like to at least be a part of God.” - The Spirits' Book, Allan Kardec​
_______​
"The object is only a means of reaching the mediator. The desire is aimed at the mediator's being. Proust compares this terrible desire to be the Other with thirst: 'Thirst - like that which burns a parched land - for a life which would be a more perfect drink for my soul to absorb in long gulps, all the more greedily because it has never tasted a single drop.'" - Chapter II, "Men Become Gods in the Eyes of Each Other"; Deceit, Desire & the Novel by Rene Girard​
"This terrible desire to be the Other," as Girard said, is quite common in advertising. Buy the jeans, BE the sexy model! Smoke the cigarette, be the Marlboro Man! Now you know how you're being manipulated, so your free will is strengthened. Use it wisely.
 

byte007

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The basic facts of your existence are outside of your control; that is your DNA, the time you're born, etc.

I would go further than this and tell you a truth that most people resist; for the overwhelming majority of humanity, what is called the mind is also bestowed by external forces. Socialisation and the immediate environment, along with bits of old memories (usually of heightened emotional reactions to external stimuli) and signals from the body, make up the mixed bag that is most minds. A particular configuration of these forces is often talked about as though it were "you" and that is if a person goes so far as to ask such a rare question in the first place. While you identify with this externally constructed mind you are subject to the capriciousness of life in an uncertain world, after all "a slave is not greater than his master". Your life is determined to the extent that it is a Life at all.

Yet, deeper than the mind and its tumult, there is a principle which is latent but, once-stirred, can examine and reconfigure the material it finds itself to have awoken in (including the mind). This Work of self-creation also influences the external world. You are no longer merely subject to external stimuli but capable of playing with it. It won't stop you from getting hit by a bullet if you walk into the wrong place at the wrong time (the body largely remains enmeshed in exteriority), but it will give you the ecstasy of genuine self-transformation and the recreation of your life into something more beautiful than miserly fate would have dished out.
I definitely see wisdom in some of that for sure. Us believing our thoughts are from us, and they are "our" thoughts is an interesting question for sure. If that is the case, the question is are we given a choice based on the thoughts if they are not from "us" alone? Interesting to ponder. I don't think we can ever prove any of it but we can ponder and hypothesize it for sure. As far as the "master/slave" perspective, I don't like it nor would I accept it as I think it is a matter of how we choose to perceive it. Technically, if our thoughts were not of "us" and if we had no true choices, I would think we would be better classified an observer and one who experiences the Sources experience as us. Of course we would not be experiencing the whole of the Source as us, just how the Source chooses to experience as us which is just a tiny part of who the Source is. Some good thoughts to think about you expressed for sure.
Post automatically merged:

122. How can spirits, at their origin, when they have not yet acquired self-consciousness, possess freedom of choice between good and evil? Is there in them any principle, any tendency, which inclines them towards either road rather than towards the other?​
[The Spirit's answer:] "Free-will is developed in proportion as the spirit acquires the consciousness of himself. Freedom would not exist for the spirit if his choice were solicited by a cause independent of his will. The cause which determines his choice is not in him, but is exterior to him, in the influences to which he voluntarily yields in virtue of the freedom of his will. It is this choice that is represented under the grand figure of the fall of man and of original sin. Some spirits have yielded to temptation; others have withstood it." - The Spirits' Book, Allan Kardec​

My Commentary: Free will requires a sufficiently developed intelligence in order to function. Self consciousness permits the entity (human or spirit) to observe and compare self with not-self, and the Subject-Mediator relationship is established. The Object of Desire is modeled by the Mediator. (Subject=Eve; Mediator=Serpent; Object=Fruit) This is the triangle of Secret Desire according to the Mimetic theory of Rene Girard. The entity (human or spirit Subject) uses its knowledge and relationships to make choices. The entity can have knowledge that certain decisions bring harm to others.

Temptation occurs when the Mediator or Model appears to portray the Object of Desire as having greater value to the Subject than any known harms which may occur. Rationalization is used internally to erode barriers to action until Desire overrides all inhibition. When entities observe each other modeling a particular negative behavior, the barriers to action decrease exponentially with each additional participant in a destructive action. This is the modus operandi of the violent mob. "Sinner! Foreigner! Deviant!" cries the enraged mob. The first to cast a stone becomes the model for the rest of the participants in the mob. They seek catharsis and a unanimous Object upon which to channel their collective anger. (There is a magical/occult element to this which no academic would openly consider, to wit that such mobs attract sympathetic (angry, vindictive) entities that add their own inclinations to the mob and feed off of the incarnate humans' emotional energies. That's a discussion for another thread.)

Complicating the matter further, the Mediator of Desire can be an antagonist to the Subject in pursuit of the Object, such as the classic love triangle of competing suitors for the same woman. A further permutation occurs when the Mediator and Object are the same from the perspective of the Subject. Said the Serpent to Eve: "You will be like God..."

15. What should we think of the opinion holding that all the bodies in nature, all the beings and globes in the universe are components of the Divinity, and taken all together comprise the Divinity itself; i.e. the pantheistic doctrine?​
[The Spirit's answer:] “Since humans are unable to make themselves God, they would like to at least be a part of God.” - The Spirits' Book, Allan Kardec​
_______​
"The object is only a means of reaching the mediator. The desire is aimed at the mediator's being. Proust compares this terrible desire to be the Other with thirst: 'Thirst - like that which burns a parched land - for a life which would be a more perfect drink for my soul to absorb in long gulps, all the more greedily because it has never tasted a single drop.'" - Chapter II, "Men Become Gods in the Eyes of Each Other"; Deceit, Desire & the Novel by Rene Girard​
"This terrible desire to be the Other," as Girard said, is quite common in advertising. Buy the jeans, BE the sexy model! Smoke the cigarette, be the Marlboro Man! Now you know how you're being manipulated, so your free will is strengthened. Use it wisely.
A great amount of thought in that response. I enjoyed the read and thinking. I see validity there for sure. I have not read the books in reference but I have come to many of the those conclusions in the psychology aspects and it is great to see some metaphorical parallels with those ideologies. Very good things to think about, like the perspectives.
 
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KjEno186

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I have not read the books in reference
I crammed a lot into a very short space. I totally understand it if someone's eyes glass over while reading it. 😴

To my way of thinking, hardly anyone has an original thought. Everyone is imitating everyone else, and that includes me of course. Free will is the process of taking control of thinking. How do you know what you really want and why? My simplest explanation of Girard's mimesis is "monkey see, monkey do." (Girard disagrees with Sigmund Fraud, by the way, on the origins of desire.) A more accessible introduction to Girardian mimesis is this book by Luke Burgis:

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(It can be found as a pdf on the web, but since it is not a magic book I won't share a copy on the forum.)
 

TheMouse

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10 years ago . . heck maybe even 5 years ago if you had asked me that . . i would have said “Duh! Of Course there’s Free Will!” . . but actually, the more time i spend in solitude in nature and the more magick i experience . . . the more i sense the patterns and unseen hands of . . . what? . . i dont really know . . . . but Somebodything’s writing this stuff!! Sometimes I truly feel as if im just being carried by some divine river no matter what choices i try to make to go another way i just circle right back . . and It Is Crazy Synchronistic up in here!!! . . . downright comical sometimes . . . . . . . . .

. . . it might have something to do with us actually being multidimensional beings experiencing a linear timeline life in physical monkey bodies . . . . when in Reality there is no Time as we were taught to understand it (by people with agendas) . . . some say this is all actually happening simultaneously . . . so there’s bound to be bleed through . . . we get these glimpses and ripples that make everything feel all destiny deja vu and stuff . . . which is weird to us 3D one way timer tunnelers . . . and our higher selves (or gods or whatever) are up there in the higher dimensions looking at the whole map of our lives and we can sense that maybe . . . something like that . . . . . . . i dont know . . . . . . im just a monkey with Starlink . . . . . . . . .
 

Mannimarco

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I see very, very little free will anywhere. Thousands of years of social/religious/political brainwashing, and perhaps even magick, done by the elites to keep us controlled has left very deeply engrained patterns that are very hard to be truly free from. I see free will as a goal, something very advanced/powerful magickians have. It would also be closely related to personal sovereignty, and healing.
 
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I'm not a Philosopher, but I agree with some, that the caste system is destructive on many levels, few can be creative or think for themselves, all covet, most want to rule the world.
Yet ... If the elite of the past were to come back to life intact they would crush the elite of today and tomorrow.
 

Mannimarco

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Yet ... If the elite of the past were to come back to life intact they would crush the elite of today and tomorrow.

Agreed, in the past it seems to have been about state run magick, and occasional gruesome public examples. Contrast to today with the tech surveillance and financial manipulation, etc.
 
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