When to meditate

[lumineth Realm Lord]

So, beforehand, someone said here that they do meditations in the morning and rituals at night.

I've struggled to get up past 9. Even after setting up an alarm at 7 and 8. Luckily, last night, I set one up at 6 and got one at 7:17.

I'm hoping to do morning meditations. But my question is what do all of you do when you're meditating to darker traditions, such as the qlipoth? Do you meditate at night? Do you get up earlier to do so? Or do you get up at some ungodly hour to do the work?

 

[Ziran]

But my question is what do all of you do when you're meditating to darker traditions, such as the qlipoth?

Can you offer an example? Which qlipah / qlipot?

Lacking more details, the best I can say is: It would be no different for me than contemplating any primordial energetic principle or manifestation. What I do and when I do it is governed by what I intend to accomplish.

So, beforehand, someone said here that they do meditations in the morning and rituals at night.

At risk of restating the obvious, that's what they do. It works for them.

I've struggled to get up past 9. Eveitionsn after setting up an alarm at 7 and 8. Luckily, last night, I set one up at 6 and got one at 7:17.

It sounds like this isn't working for you.

meditating to darker traditions, such as the qlipoth

... the "darker traditions" would be opposed setting a rigid dogmatic schedule.

I wouldn't describe a path which is invoking the qlipot with a dogmatic ritualized practice a "darker tradition". It's just another version of Christianity / Strict-Justice. "... the way, the truth, the light dark none get to the father qlipot except through me meditating at the proper time of day..."

 

[FireBorn]

Are you looking to get into a formalized practice with a formalized schedule of meditating? Also, what are you hoping to get out of your meditation? I think those are important questions we have to ask ourselves before we load up our time with practices others told us were the “right” things to be doing.

For some people, having a scheduled practice gives structure and meaning. For others, it doesnt. Theres nothing wrong with either approach.

I lean toward Demonolatry, so theres no real structured practice for me compared to some traditions. Maybe that counts as a “darker” tradition? (That label made me laugh a bit.)

Also worth noting: I’m neurodivergent. If I built a schedule, I would just rebel against it — even if it was my own idea.

I meditate only to maintain my ability to drop into magickal trance when I need to commune with spirits. Thats it. Not very arcane or mystical-sounding, but its real. I move energy through my body at will, and I do that right before trance. No set-aside time for daily meditation. Its always context driven: I do it before I step into a ritual, enter the liminal, or meet a specific demon.


Not saying this is the way, its just my way. Do what actually works for you.

 

[Morell]

Snce meditation to me is but a practice of mind focusing and achieving altered states, I meditate whenever I want and feel. As standalone practice I find it better to be spontaneous throughout the day.

When connected with a ritual, then it is the conditions for the ritual that matter. Like if I want to do a ritual at evening when the sun disapears from the sky, then I have to start meditating at specific time, of course.

 

[Yazata]

So, beforehand, someone said here that they do meditations in the morning and rituals at night.

I've struggled to get up past 9. Even after setting up an alarm at 7 and 8. Luckily, last night, I set one up at 6 and got one at 7:17.

I'm hoping to do morning meditations. But my question is what do all of you do when you're meditating to darker traditions, such as the qlipoth? Do you meditate at night? Do you get up earlier to do so? Or do you get up at some ungodly hour to do the work?

You made a thread asking about meditating during a storm and one on meditating if it's hot, so I assume this thread kills my hope for a "do you meditate before or after taking a shower?" thread.
But to answer the question: I agree with @Ziran and @Morell : when you want to - then do it. I also have a pretty vacant mind most of the time, and often when I'm taking a walk or something, or doing the dishes I'm really not thinking about anything at all.

 

[Ziran]

do you meditate before or after taking a shower?

Yes! But... during the shower. immersion in the white-noise.

doing the dishes

Yes. Me too.. I think it's the white-noise of the water in conjuction with the somewhat mindless activity.

 

[Morell]

"do you meditate before or after taking a shower?"

What kind of person would meditate before shower, sweaty and stinky? After shower of course, when I can smell the shampoo.
Shower can be included into it as cleansing ritual, both physical and spiritual.

...I like the idea of these questions.
Is it better to meditate hungry or overfed?

 

[Viktor]

But my question is what do all of you do when you're meditating to darker traditions

You should not mediate, true wizards do not mediate, however strange that may sound to anyone.

Meditation is product of Hindu religion and has no place in the occult unless you intentionally want to study Hinduism and mix it with the occult for what ever reason one may have.

Meditation is religious practice and any forms of it that pretend not to be Hindu practice are derivatives whose goal is to get you closer to Hinduism.

edit:
Maybe eastern esotericism requires it or depends on it, but that has nothing to do with western esotericism.

 

[Morell]

You should not mediate, true wizards do not mediate, however strange that may sound to anyone.

Meditation is product of Hindu religion and has no place in the occult unless you intentionally want to study Hinduism and mix it with the occult for what ever reason one may have.

Meditation is religious practice and any forms of it that pretend not to be Hindu practice are derivatives whose goal is to get you closer to Hinduism.

Not entirely true, actually.
Christianity in the history knew meditation too, except they had different name for it: Contemplation. Meditation then was actively thinking about something, so we have preserved texts in style "Meditation on qualities of God" and such.

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But it is true that even there it was religious practice - the highest form of prayer - empty mind reaching to god.

 

[Viktor]

Christianity in the history knew meditation too, except they had different name for it: Contemplation.

I know about contemplation, it's Catholic invention to counter pressure from the east, although it didn't see success.
Same way how they invented rosary and a bunch of other practices, whose only purpose is and was to give their believers something as alternative, to reduce conversions.

 

[Agatha]

I do not work within the system you mention, but perhaps you'd still like some general advice from a stranger:

I believe a part of your issue with meditation lies within the view you have of it, and that is indeed presented most often. That is, a setting of rhythm... but it's not properly specified whose or what rhythm, exactly. I believe people tend to have different circadian clocks, which are affected both by their inherent natures, their potential spiritual/psychological deformities, or their environment - there's more to this, of course.

If you are not a morning person right now, be it since you were a child or because you suffer from stress-induced insomnia, or some other secret thing, it is not good to force it too much. You can attempt it in various techniques and measure progress, but if a way won't work then it won't work. Either you will receive it at a better point, or the less appropriate choice was picked. The best way I've found for myself is simply feeling the right time via intuition. Call to prayer is universal in one way or another, even for rocks, but it's a matter of "hearing" it.

If your intuition isn't very good, try analyzing your habits and see if there's anything that is arguably bad or a negative influence. Not just on sleep, but on yourself in general - do you chug 5 cans of monsters at once, or do you torture yourself with bad emo songs when you're sad?

Miasma, even as habit, can block some aspects of you, in my experience. If something haunts you, it will feed on your vitality - which is part of the mechanism of meditation, though in various ways. This is not to mention will - are you surrendering to any forces that feel beyond your control, except for fate itself? This may also cloud your vision, though it could be many more things except these two.

It is usually danced around, but your life and habit must at least begin to align with the axis you have by nature, and the universal axis itself.

Again, purely from experience. It is not extensive experience, and I am not you in perception, but it might help. Good luck.

 

[AbammonTheGreat]

The general logic is prayer/devotion and meditation when you wake up to set your day right. Helps give you a positive outlook on your day. Then night time is for ritual because thats when the spirits roam.

However meditating before/after ritual is good too. I like to practice hypnosis, astral projection/obe, contemplation, scrying, and meditative study at night.

Also once a week I get up between 2-3am for very serious occult work and that includes meditative practices. Then I go back to sleep afterwards.

So it doesn't really matter when you do it but its generally recommended that you do some type of prayer and meditation upon awakening to help set your day up for spiritual success.

 

[HoldAll]

You should not mediate, true wizards do not mediate, however strange that may sound to anyone.

I'd be very very careful with such sweeping statements. For many here (including me), meditation is an important part of their work, and nobody has the right to disqualify them from magic on the strength of their practices alone; you might just as well that you aren't a wizard of you don't wear a pointy hat.

I don't think that meditation is the sole preserve of Eastern religions; after all, sitting down, closing your eyes and trying to think of nothing is hardly an act of devotion to some multi-armed deity. It's a mental exercise that happens to be largely congruent with zen buddhism's zazen but it does't come necessarily with religious baggage. Bardon calls it 'mastery of thoughts' in his IIH. Carroll has 'not-thinking' as part of his beginner's syllabus in his Liber MMM. Is meditation really required for magic? For me it's absolutely crucial, and I won't anybody tell me how to shape my practice if I wanted to be a 'true wizard'. I can see no alternative to meditation for me, I'm such a scatterbrained guy that I would lose the thread about twenty times even during such a simple ritual ritual as the LBRP when I started out. Now it's 3-5 times only, and I credit this progress to my daily empty-mind meditation.

In my opinion, exercises similar to 'mastery of thoughts' and 'not-thinking' must have cropped up in the West as part of the New Thought movement. Bardon probably learned his mental exercises from Friedrich Wilhelm Quintscher, Crowley's montaneering buddy Oscar Eckstein taught him some similar practices when they were in Mexico, so there must have been some pioneers at work at that time wondering about the potential of the human mind and how to develop it - without any recourse to Eastern religions.

 

[Morell]

Personally I consider meditation to be universal practice. In Norse Paganism we have meditation too, we call it Utisetta, meaning sitting out. In history people when seeking advice from spirit, they would go out into place of power and sit there for hours, and even days to reach the communication and their answer.

 

[Agatha]

You should not mediate, true wizards do not mediate, however strange that may sound to anyone.

Meditation is product of Hindu religion and has no place in the occult unless you intentionally want to study Hinduism and mix it with the occult for what ever reason one may have.

Meditation is religious practice and any forms of it that pretend not to be Hindu practice are derivatives whose goal is to get you closer to Hinduism.

edit:
Maybe eastern esotericism requires it or depends on it, but that has nothing to do with western esotericism.

This opinion is a little extreme and can function as a memetic hazard, for both yourself and others.

Also, this makes no sense. If you understood the practice you would see that it is perennial. Dividing endlessly may not be such a good idea.

Not criticism, of course, simply some quick advice if you're willing to consider it - I don't wish to dictate anyone's practice, after all.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

You should not mediate, true wizards do not mediate, however strange that may sound to anyone.

Meditation is product of Hindu religion and has no place in the occult unless you intentionally want to study Hinduism and mix it with the occult for what ever reason one may have.

Meditation is religious practice and any forms of it that pretend not to be Hindu practice are derivatives whose goal is to get you closer to Hinduism.

edit:
Maybe eastern esotericism requires it or depends on it, but that has nothing to do with western esotericism.

I have to disagree. For the state of gnosis, the consious mind needs to either be overloaded or quieted. Overloaded by strong emotion, frenzied dancing etc. or quieted by meditation of some kind. Meditation requires more discipline and takes longer to learn, but it is just as valid for magical acts.

 

[Viktor]

This opinion is a little extreme and can function as a memetic hazard, for both yourself and others.

Personally I consider meditation to be universal practice.

I'd be very very careful with such sweeping statements.

I have to disagree.

It sucks when everybody agrees with everybody, can't there be discussions where we don't agree on some subjects?
Everybody agreeing with everybody about everything suggests something is wrong on a fundamental level.

Another point worth pointing out is that people tend to defend what they believe even if they have no proof or an argument to back up their beliefs.

In such situations and circumstances it's easy to make false judgements or mistakes, and it also not possible to discuss about it as no matter what one says the other side will disagree the more the one repeats itself.

 

[Morell]

I wonder how you imagine debate to look like. Probably I myself won't be capable of keeping any frame of it, just being honest. I dislike common way of debating.

And you disagree with us, so it is not everybody agreeing on the subject.

I remember looking at YT on some university debate of two professors. Felt like watching two AI debating. One was just stating his stuff, other was stating his stuff and advertising his books to students. Yuck.

 

[Viktor]

I wonder how you imagine debate to look like. Probably I myself won't be capable of keeping any frame of it, just being honest. I dislike common way of debating.

A debate can bring fruit only if 2 conditions are met or agreed upon:
1. Is based on logical arguments or optionally proofs if they're available from both sides/camps.
2. Both camps when faced with logical arguments are ready to change their opinion or belief, e.g. it doesn't preach its own opinions that are contradictory to obvious proofs or logic.

And you disagree with us, so it is not everybody agreeing on the subject.

If I didn't login to forums that wouldn't be case.

I'm really not upset for being the only one saying that meditation is eastern practice, what I'm more upset about is that chaos magic prevails in discussions as if chaos magic is the only one true.

 

[Robert Ramsay]

It sucks when everybody agrees with everybody, can't there be discussions where we don't agree on some subjects?
Everybody agreeing with everybody about everything suggests something is wrong on a fundamental level.

Another point worth pointing out is that people tend to defend what they believe even if they have no proof or an argument to back up their beliefs.

In such situations and circumstances it's easy to make false judgements or mistakes, and it also not possible to discuss about it as no matter what one says the other side will disagree the more the one repeats itself.

On a less theoretical and more practical note, if I advance an opinion and everyone disagrees with me, maybe I should ask myself "Is it possible I'm wrong about this?"