About gratitude

[Beyond Everything]

It doesnt appear that way as you yourself admit you are mostly 'transcendental ' aspirations (no results mentioned ) and any 'results' you get dont even seem to come from practicing magic , just ' happened anyway ' with little mundane effort

No, that is not at all what I meant. You're once again having trouble with your reading comprehension due to that bee in your bonnet.

With little mundane effort means just that - the results came about through esoteric means, and I didnt put in much or any work beyond that, ie money just came to me without my having to work for it. I never said it would just have happened anyway.

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By far, my main interest in the occult has to do with extreme transcendental aspirations, but despite that I have attracted money, relationships, and other things of some significance- and these things often manifested for me with little or no mundane effort (which itself is good for one's evidential hoard).

 

[Firetree]

As if millions upon millions of people living in terrible conditions haven't been taught by religious overseers to always be grateful for what little they have.



Inconsistent isn't the best description . Vastly oversold is better


Our two most famous examples of knowledge and conversation of the HGA are those of Crowley and Regardie. Crowley afterwards couldn't even kick his heroin habit, which is a crystal clear sign of spiritual impotence. Regardie would spend a lot of time chatting with his 'angel' and ended up at the close of his life regretting even wasting time on the version of magic he had devoted so many years to. It's painted as this great accomplishment, but all I see are people getting various mystical 'feels'. What it does NOT do is intergrate with the hidden self, because anyone who has experienced that could easily resist heroin and would never have regret over being involved in that kind of esoteric practice.

Poo-poo on so called 'major examples' it did for me and I easily 'resisted heroin' , again you need to cite and demolish Crowley to give your ideas validity . And I certainly do not regret any relationships I have with various parts of my psyche .

You seem confused. Only expressing something later in life doesn't mean it is not an instinct.

You missed the parts about conditioning and as far as being able to show gratitude is an instinct ... I thought you said it was a program installed by slave masters ... now you switch to it being an instinct .

We are talking about the esoteric level. At least I am. Your responses are as banal as always. They mainly consist of you parroting things youve heard and read.

Nope . I have personally accomplished and write a lot from that perspective .

I fail to see the point in all this if I am just going on things I read .

Although I suppose if you really believe I am doing that , it might explain your averse approach to what I write .

 

[Beyond Everything]

Poo-poo on so called 'major examples' it did for me and I easily 'resisted heroin' , again you need to cite and demolish Crowley to give your ideas validity . And I certainly do not regret any relationships I have with various parts of my psyche .

Why is it 'unfair' to cite Crowley? He and Regardie are why people even talk about the HGA. They are objective examples of the results that don't involve having to give personal anecdotes and observations here. Your only response is that Im being mean to Crowley again lol You still cant articulate a rebuttal.

Congratulations on resisting heroin, I guess. That proves what, exactly? Did I say everyone who does the HGA crap becomes a heroin addict?

I thought you said it was a program installed by slave masters ... now you switch to it being an instinct .

You're so eager to find flaws in what I type that you descend into dumber and dumber remarks. An instinct can be magnified by culture.

 

[Firetree]

Why is it 'unfair' to cite Crowley?

I dont know . Who claimed 'unfairness' ?

He and Regardie are why people even talk about the HGA.

Ahhh , I see . You dont know the history then . Look up my posts on ' khvarenah ' the Zoroastrian principle ( and 'part of the psyche' ) that was known and taught about long before Crowley and where he probably ripped the idea off from .

They are objective examples of the results that don't involve having to give personal anecdotes and observations here. Your only response is that Im being mean to Crowley again lol You still cant articulate a rebuttal.

I responded that you are being 'mean to ' Crowley again ???

What ?

And I cant articulate a rebuttal ?

You cant seem to 'create ' a rebuttal without making up a statement to rebutt .

Congratulations on resisting heroin, I guess. That proves what, exactly? Did I say everyone who does the HGA crap becomes a heroin addict?

Nope, but you mention it so much ... even in a thread that has nothing to do with that subject that one assumes, by your continual association and mention of it , its something you are 'stuck on' . Again I am not defending Crowley nor his approach nor what I think is that stupid Abramelin ritual .... but I know you have to insist thats all I base my posts on as that is the easiest thing for you to criticize .

This is actually about gratitude , and now I note your attempts at trying to divert from that , with your continual complaints about Crowley and the HGA idea .

Maybe Crowley messed up because he had a 'certain attitude' about gratitude

You're so eager to find flaws in what I type that you descend into dumber and dumber remarks. An instinct can be magnified by culture.

No , I am logically and rationally explaining why your attacks on other posters here are not relevant to their experiences with expressing gratitude .

Its valid for you to say YOU dont find it personally helpful and why , but so far you have made post after post of YOU actually trying to find flaws in any person that says they have benefited from gratitude .

What is so threatening to you about this ?

 

[Beyond Everything]

Ahhh , I see . You dont know the history then . Look up my posts on ' khvarenah ' the Zoroastrian principle ( and 'part of the psyche' ) that was known and taught about long before Crowley and where he probably ripped the idea off from .

I wasn't discussing comprehensive history. I was correctly noting that most people hear of the concept through Regardie and Crowley, not Zoroastrianism (and these hoaried faiths have been a total flop in the spiritual liberation of humans). And we have those case studies anyone can look at to see the results of this concept. There's not a whole lot there, other than mystical feelings. Whereas integrating with the hidden self actually transforms the subtle and physical bodies. This is truly esoteric, not the garbage you find in books or silly orders.

It's amusing, I suppose, that you think a critique and deconstruction of something equates to being threatened by it. Whereas those triggered by this esoteric analysis of gratitude are making all sorts of remarks about me, ie it's not me who is threatened.

 

[MorganBlack]

Interesting conversation.

I never thought about gratitude much until recently. Goetia, my main practice, is a bit more aggressive. There is a place for giving no fucks.

As a formal idea it was always a bit too New Agey for me. Then I read Neville Goddard and can see the point.

I'm also sure authoritarian systems can decontextualize and weaponize gratitude into a social control system. As a Latino, I know sometimes when marginalized groups raise systemic grievances we are met with responses like "Well, at least things are better than they used to be, for you." weaponizing a baseline of thankfulness to invalidate demands for equity. It's not wrong to be concerned about 'toxic positivity,' as they say these days.

But at the level of personal practice, free from socioeconomic system concerns, for Neville we were never powerless supplicants begging a distant divine power for favors. Our imagination is the ultimate reality. (See Kripal's Dual Aspect Monism here.)

Gratitude in Neville's system (my only one aside from more trad magic and mysticism) is a technique - an internal aesthetic and psychological discipline ( "stance" I'd say). You are thanking your own deeper consciousness (your "subconscious" or imaginal self, however you conceive of it) for the reality it has externalized (LOA is about the present moment) to anchor yourself firmly in the state of already having your desire. Key here.

Gratitude - and maybe we need a better word (?) - is an active technique for shifting your consciousness, not a moral obligation, submissive slavishness, or a passive emotional state. Gratitude here is a technique LOA uses for the elimination of "want" that Goddard taught is important to "manifest" (ugh, still not used to this language).

That feeling of lack ("I want X") pushes X further away because consciousness continually externalizes whatever state it occupies. True gratitude eliminates "want" by substituting it with the feeling of satisfaction. You cannot simultaneously feel grateful for having received something and anxious about not having it. Shit works too, without all the occulty bric-a-brac.

Can we also agree Beyond Everything has a point not to let mere techniques become an identity? If I am reading him clearly.

 

[Firetree]

Interesting conversation.

I never thought about gratitude much until recently. Goetia, my main practice, is a bit more aggressive. There is a place for giving no fucks.

As a formal idea it was always a bit too New Agey for me.

This is probably the issue here . What I learnt, what I practice and what I have been saying here has nothing to do with 'new agey ' ... this is what has happened to modern magic and modern 'magicians' .... new age corruption and crap, learning from crappy you tubes and get 'overnight opinionated ' .

I write some thing that has been based on research and practice that started before there even was an internet . Then it gets turned to modern crap . Then someone comes along and hears a word or two .... and forget about detailed explanations or references or examples from other culture .... they are so sure from their new age corruopted 'education' that what I am saying MUST be based on the modern crap and modern crap opinions of it .

mention Homer and they think you mean the Simpsons . I put on classical music and I am told its 'cartoon music' (as that is the only place they heard that music before ) . AND they will INSIST its Simpsons and cartoons and will insist I am referring to that .

Then I read Neville Goddard and can see the point.

I'm also sure authoritarian systems can decontextualize and weaponize gratitude into a social control system.

Of course they do , they will take anything and twist it however they can . I understand that and have gone to pains to explain I am talking about something else , regardless of others who insist they know me better than myself .

The other one they use is ' keep your head low and be obedient , you will get your reward in heaven . yeah sure , another tool of oppression . I am not denying in any way some people use the idea that 'one should have gratitude' in this way . I am saying one can use it in another way . My focus is anthropology and my magick is within that context .

Also I get exposure and practice in a wide field ; a lot of Asians from various places and the indigenous and their practices . Also I have a LOT to be grateful for in the first place - I do realize how hard it must be for people comparatively , even in the best of places , compared to what I get here .... offered to me 'on a plate' .

Aside from the pristine environment * and good services and plenty of food and free land and cheap shelter ... just one example ; a few years back I had a total hip replacement - from the first pain I felt I got ; free medical consultation and medication , free specialist consultation, hospital visit and stay , surgery with prostheses , physiotherapy , recovery drugs and a visiting nurse to change the dressing ... all free . Thats just medical .

When I see the situation other people live in , say horrible dirty air with every breath , and then I wake up to clean clear bright blue skies and breath in the air , I feel thankful and grateful for that . Seeeing my clean air , or seeing others polllution I think 'I am glad I dont get that .

It has nothing whatsoever to do with feeling subservient or obedient or bowing down or anything like that .

As a Latino, I know sometimes when marginalized groups raise systemic grievances we are met with responses like "Well, at least things are better than they used to be, for you." weaponizing a baseline of thankfulness to invalidate demands for equity. It's not wrong to be concerned about 'toxic positivity,' as they say these days.

Indeed and that sucks and it is not what I am talking about . The insistence that I must be talking about that is fueled and pushed by other's inclinations and proclivities .

But at the level of personal practice, free from socioeconomic system concerns, for Neville we were never powerless supplicants begging a distant divine power for favors. Our imagination is the ultimate reality. (See Kripal's Dual Aspect Monism here.)

Gratitude in Neville's system (my only one aside from more trad magic and mysticism) is a technique - an internal aesthetic and psychological discipline ( "stance" I'd say). You are thanking your own deeper consciousness (your "subconscious" or imaginal self, however you conceive of it) for the reality it has externalized (LOA is about the present moment) to anchor yourself firmly in the state of already having your desire. Key here.

LOA ? What I write about and the source I get info from has NOTHING to do with that .

Like most of my experience it comes from decades long study and practice , including academic study , of cultures ( my focus is Cultural Anthropology ) and practices across time and locations with different cultures .

I am NOT a modern person 'learning' from LOA internet youtubes and wannabe opinions .

Gratitude - and maybe we need a better word (?) - i

Its the right word , these other ideas , valid or not, are attachments or twisted meaning .

s an active technique for shifting your consciousness, not a moral obligation, submissive slavishness, or a passive emotional state.

Yep , words just like those .

Gratitude here is a technique LOA uses for the elimination of "want" that Goddard taught is important to "manifest" (ugh, still not used to this language).

Agreed ... UGH ! and I also see the statement as a distortion . Magically thats a backfire .

I can affirm , that for me , gratitude does not eliminate want . I want all the time , selfish little bugger I am ! And remarkably I get so much of what I want that I have gratitude for it .

That feeling of lack ("I want X") pushes X further away because consciousness continually externalizes whatever state it occupies. True gratitude eliminates "want" by substituting it with the feeling of satisfaction. You cannot simultaneously feel grateful for having received something and anxious about not having it. Shit works too, without all the occulty bric-a-brac.

Well, not the same thing ! Thats just common sense .

But I can feel grateful for receiving something ... and still want other things .

Unfortunately I still see gratitude has been somewhat 'polluted' by 'new age teachings' and stuff like LOA

- not surprised really . I am also grateful I got to experience the pre-internet age .

Can we also agree Beyond Everything has a point not to let mere techniques become an identity? If I am reading him clearly.